MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Sikma belongs on the first-ballot list, Mark. That's not even a legitimate debate. It falls into the no-brainer category.

I'm surprised and a little ticked off that it took somebody that long to bring up Michael Harper's name. All Harps did was be named an All-American three times, win the CCIW MOP three times, and, oh yeah, there's that little matter of his winning three national championship rings. And then he played for the Portland Trailblazers.

Jack Sikma would deserve recognition as much as anyone. The only reason I left him off of what would be my inaugural list was that he didn't have the unique distinction of being first team all-conference in the CCIW for four years. Not knowing his CCIW history, it's still pretty difficult to comprehend how an All Pro couldn't have been all-conference each year in college.

* My thinking was Sikma would be at the top of the list of my 2nd class.

* And, if there is any question of his not being included in the inaugural class, for any reason, keep in mind that he was inducted into the Small College Basketball Hall Of Fame as part of it's second class. 

1. It's not a "unique distinction" to be named to the All-CCIW first team four times. Seven players have done it.

2. I don't think that the 4x first-teamer criterion is necessarily the be-all and end-all of selecting first-ballot HOFs. As Bob said, too many great players get left off of the list. Sikma and Harper are prime examples, and there are others as well.

3. If you really want to talk about a distinctive that ought to be used as a first-ballot criterion, let's talk about multiple MOP winners. That would include:

* Jesse Price, MU, two times (1967-68 and 1968-69)
* John Laing, AC, two times (1971-72 and 1972-73)
* Jack Sikma, IWU, three times (1974-75, 1975-76, and 1976-77)
* Michael Harper, NPU, three times (1977-78, 1978-79, and 1979-80)
* Korey Coon, IWU, two times (1998-99* and 1999-2000*)
* Kent Raymond, WC, three times (2006-07, 2007-08, and 2008-09)
* Steve Djurickovic, CC, two times (2009-10 and 2010-11)
* Hunter Hill, AC two times (2014-15* and 2015-16)

(*Korey Coon shared the award with Wheaton's Rob Hamann in 1998-99 and with Carthage's Jason Wiertel in 1999-2000. Hunter Hill shared the award with Illinois Wesleyan's Dylan Overstreet in 2014-15.)

That's not a perfect list -- Hunter Hill, as great as he was, was not a HOF first-ballot kind of player. But it's a better list than the four-time All-CCIW list. Rob Garnes and Landon Gamble were really solid players, but I don't think that either one of them is a HOFer, or at least they shouldn't be going in in the first few rounds.

If we're talking players only (so Bill Warden only gets credit for what he did while he was wearing belted silks and leather knee pads), this would be my inaugural class choices:

Marv Johnson, WC '51
Scott Steagall, MU '51
Bill Warden, NCC '55
Mel Peterson, WC '60
Jesse Price, MU '69
John Laing, AC '73
Leon Gobczynski, MU '75
Jack Sikma, IWU '77
Dave Shaw, CU '77
Michael Harper, NPU '80
Blaise Bugajski, IWU '84
Korey Coon, IWU '00
Kent Raymond, WC '09
Steve Djurickovic, CC '11

This would be my second class:

Greg Crawford, NPU '70
Johnnie Butler, CC '71
Randy Pfund, WC '74
Bruce Hamming, AC '75
Dave Rosenbalm CC '77
Michael Thomas, NPU '81
Greg Yess, IWU '82
Justyne Monegain, NPU '85
Bart Barnes, MU '88
Robert Brown, NCC '90
Bryan Crabtree, IWU '97
Jason Wiertel, CC '02
Joel Kolmodin, WC '04
Keelan Amelianovich, IWU '06

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

[Pat Coleman]

I'd start with 10 people rather than five -- the inaugural class of an institution such as the CCIW would have a LOT of catching up to do.

Problem solved.

[Gregory Sager]

Interesting discussion on the HOF. No short list of inaugural classes or whose turn it is next will satisfy everyone. (The idea of satisfying everyone on this board is pretty amusing.)  Having all who deserve to go in initially would be a very large class and would dilute the impact. Again, this all theoretical at this point but for the first two years, the conference could hold 2-3 events, each inducting who would all be considered the first class. This would be a somewhat complicated system but if the three events, say, were at different venues, fall, winter and spring, it might work. The physical housing of a "Hall" is probably not important and could be done with a virtual presence.

I think that this would be a good idea, but most likely an undoable task.  Perhaps if the CCIW Chatsters wanted to pony up some money to support the effort, the commissioner might consider it. After saying that, having money influence politics,which applies here, is not a good idea, so scratch that.

OT: I have been in the hospital (and rehab), since 12/23 with a pretty serious condition.  The nurses, doctors, and therapists have worked miracles to get me back to an acceptable level of health. I am going home on Monday after 58 days gone. Looking forward to opening Christmas presents. My wife is a rock star.

The reason I bring this up is to say that part of my recovery was reading this board. Laughter is good for the soul.

BTW:  Mel Peterson (WC, late '50's) should be a lock.

Great to see you posting again, Joe. Glad that our hijinks unintentionally provided some therapeutic amusement for you.

[kiko]

I'd start with 10 people rather than five -- the inaugural class of an institution such as the CCIW would have a LOT of catching up to do.

Problem solved.

Two other options, particularly if it is an all-sport HOF:

- Start with five inductees for each of three eras: 50s/60s, 70s/80s, and 90s/00s.
- Start with five inductees for each of the three seasons: fall, winter, and spring sports.

If we're talking players only (so Bill Warden only gets credit for what he did while he was wearing belted silks and leather knee pads), this would be my inaugural class choices:

Marv Johnson, WC '51
Scott Steagall, MU '51
Bill Warden, NCC '55
Mel Peterson, WC '60
Jesse Price, MU '69
John Laing, AC '73
Leon Gobczynski, MU '75
Jack Sikma, IWU '77
Dave Shaw, CU '77
Michael Harper, NPU '80
Blaise Bugajski, IWU '84
Korey Coon, IWU '00
Kent Raymond, WC '09
Steve Djurickovic, CC '11

This would be my second class:

Greg Crawford, NPU '70
Johnnie Butler, CC '71
Randy Pfund, WC '74
Bruce Hamming, AC '75
Dave Rosenbalm CC '77
Michael Thomas, NPU '81
Greg Yess, IWU '82
Justyne Monegain, NPU '85
Bart Barnes, MU '88
Robert Brown, NCC '90
Bryan Crabtree, IWU '97
Jason Wiertel, CC '02
Joel Kolmodin, WC '04
Keelan Amelianovich, IWU '06

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

This list is too long.  If you induct 28 people in the first two years, you will get to a point very quickly where you either have to dilute your standards or you induct someone once every few years.  That's not to say any of the people you named are not worthy -- just that you don't put everyone who deserves recognition in during the first opportunity.  Guys like Robert Brown and Bryan Crabtree deserve eventual induction rather than recognition right out of the gate.

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

100% disagree with this.  Both should be represented.

[Gregory Sager]

The first five coaches I would consider are the five on Gregory's list (Bridges, Carius, McCarrell, Pfund, and Reade).

I should, while I'm thinking about it, explain why I didn't include Joe Bean among those five immortals. His curriculum vitae as a coach can stand with any of those other five gentlemen. After all, he is the winningest coach in college soccer history, he won two national championship at the helm of Wheaton's men's soccer program (1984 and 1997), and his teams were national runners-up on two other occasions (1999 and 2006).

The reason why I didn't put him on my first-ballot list with Bridges, Carius, McCarrell, Pfund, and Reade is because the CCIW didn't adopt men's soccer as a sponsored sport until 1988, and even then it was an afterthought. Only six teams competed in the league until Carthage added the sport in 1995, and Elmhurst didn't field a men's soccer team until 2004, two years before Bean retired. Wheaton had been deadly serious about the game of soccer for decades, dating all the way back to the Bob Baptista era in the 1950s, but, as was the case with most of America, it was nothing more than a curiosity on CCIW campuses for the first decade and a half or so that it was a league-sponsored sport. Over the first thirteen seasons of CCIW men's soccer, Wheaton was 64-1-1 in league play ... and a lot of those 64 wins were of the 7-0, 9-0, 12-0 variety. It wasn't until the rise of the North Park program under John Born in the early '00s that Wheaton actually had a legit challenger in this league that could go toe-to-toe with Bean's teams. Because of that lack of CCIW competition, I have to mark Joe Bean down a little -- even though his actual overall credentials, as I said, can stand with anybody's.

  You can make a case for them going in any order, so to some extent, the pecking order here is dependent on who gets selected to check other boxes.  In other words, if I decided Kent Raymond should go in the first class, I wouldn't take Pfund as well.  Not a slam at all on him as he's a no-brainer inductee, but it would be more appropriate IMO if an inaugural class of five individuals represented five schools.  So we get one of the two.  The same holds true for Sikma/Bridges, Carius/Warden, etc.

My inaugural five would be:

- Al Carius, who gets the nod among the coaches for both longevity of success and sheer number of national championships won
- Lori Kerans, for sustained success in women's basketball
- Bob Reade or someone else associated with Augustana's glory days football era.  I would not choose Kenny Anderson, as if the male athletes selected were he and Sikma, then the optics would be that players selected were those who attained professional success, and that's not the right criteria.
- Jack Sikma, who is IMO clearly the first male athlete in any sport who should be selected
- I don't know who the fifth would be, but it should be whomever is considered the greatest female athlete in conference history.

I would put forth Janice Swanson (NPU '90) for that distinction. She was the CCIW MOP in women's basketball in 1987-88, she was the CCIW women's cross-country champion in 1987 (she also finished third twice and fifth once), and three times (1988, 1989, and 1990) she was named the CCIW's Outstanding Performer in women's track & field, as she won the 400-meter hurdles once, the long jump twice, the triple jump once, and the heptathlon three times.

What I don't like about this list is not having someone from Wheaton in the inaugural class of five, but I don't know how to solve for that without weighting things too heavily toward men's sports.  I thought about a Wheaton football player, but it seems like the lead horse from that sport needs to come from Augustana.  If at all possible I'd really look for the fifth individual to come from woman's soccer, swimming, softball, etc., if a case could be made.  I can't make a good suggestion here as the only thing I really know about CCIW woman's sports is what Ypsi and 70 post on this board.

You have my sympathies.

[Gregory Sager]

I'd start with 10 people rather than five -- the inaugural class of an institution such as the CCIW would have a LOT of catching up to do.

Problem solved.

Two other options, particularly if it is an all-sport HOF:

- Start with five inductees for each of three eras: 50s/60s, 70s/80s, and 90s/00s.
- Start with five inductees for each of the three seasons: fall, winter, and spring sports.

Both good ideas.

If we're talking players only (so Bill Warden only gets credit for what he did while he was wearing belted silks and leather knee pads), this would be my inaugural class choices:

Marv Johnson, WC '51
Scott Steagall, MU '51
Bill Warden, NCC '55
Mel Peterson, WC '60
Jesse Price, MU '69
John Laing, AC '73
Leon Gobczynski, MU '75
Jack Sikma, IWU '77
Dave Shaw, CU '77
Michael Harper, NPU '80
Blaise Bugajski, IWU '84
Korey Coon, IWU '00
Kent Raymond, WC '09
Steve Djurickovic, CC '11

This would be my second class:

Greg Crawford, NPU '70
Johnnie Butler, CC '71
Randy Pfund, WC '74
Bruce Hamming, AC '75
Dave Rosenbalm CC '77
Michael Thomas, NPU '81
Greg Yess, IWU '82
Justyne Monegain, NPU '85
Bart Barnes, MU '88
Robert Brown, NCC '90
Bryan Crabtree, IWU '97
Jason Wiertel, CC '02
Joel Kolmodin, WC '04
Keelan Amelianovich, IWU '06

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

This list is too long.  If you induct 28 people in the first two years, you will get to a point very quickly where you either have to dilute your standards or you induct someone once every few years.  That's not to say any of the people you named are not worthy -- just that you don't put everyone who deserves recognition in during the first opportunity.  Guys like Robert Brown and Bryan Crabtree deserve eventual induction rather than recognition right out of the gate.

Fair point. OK, I'll divide them into four classes, adjusting for era and school representation:

Bill Warden	Marv Johnson	Randy Pfund	Greg Crawford
Mel Peterson	Scott Steagall	Dave Rosenbalm	Johnnie Butler
Jesse Price	Leon Gobczynski	Michael Thomas	Bruce Hamming
John Laing	Dave Shaw	Greg Yess	Justyne Monegain
Jack Sikma	Blaise Bugajski	Bart Barnes	Robert Brown
Michael Harper	Korey Coon	Jason Wiertel	Bryan Crabtree
Steve Djurickovic	Kent Raymond	Joel Kolmodin	Keelan Amelianovich

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

100% disagree with this.  Both should be represented.

No, I think that when you've got 72 years of catching up to do in terms of creating a HOF, you have to look first at the men and women who built the great programs and had long-term career achievements.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Using multiple MOP winners is a valid data point, but recognize that the award did not begin until Jesse Price's junior season - otherwise I have little doubt he would be a 3-time winner, if not the only 4-time winner.  That particular criterion also unfairly omits the great players from the first three decades of the CCIW.

[Gregory Sager]

True, which is why I would never use it as the only criterion.

[kiko]

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

100% disagree with this.  Both should be represented.

No, I think that when you've got 72 years of catching up to do in terms of creating a HOF, you have to look first at the men and women who built the great programs and had long-term career achievements.

Bosko circa the past few years has shown what one of those HOF coaches looks like without great players.  Those great programs and achievements are not the result of great coaching alone, so my preference is to build a hall consisting of both.

- I don't know who the fifth would be, but it should be whomever is considered the greatest female athlete in conference history.

I would put forth Janice Swanson (NPU '90) for that distinction. She was the CCIW MOP in women's basketball in 1987-88, she was the CCIW women's cross-country champion in 1987 (she also finished third twice and fifth once), and three times (1988, 1989, and 1990) she was named the CCIW's Outstanding Performer in women's track & field, as she won the 400-meter hurdles once, the long jump twice, the triple jump once, and the heptathlon three times.

This makes sense, both because sustained success across three sports is notable, and because it gets a fifth school into my inaugural list, which was something I'd hoped to do.  So absent a better idea, I can work with this.

What I don't like about this list is not having someone from Wheaton in the inaugural class of five, but I don't know how to solve for that without weighting things too heavily toward men's sports.  I thought about a Wheaton football player, but it seems like the lead horse from that sport needs to come from Augustana.  If at all possible I'd really look for the fifth individual to come from woman's soccer, swimming, softball, etc., if a case could be made.  I can't make a good suggestion here as the only thing I really know about CCIW woman's sports is what Ypsi and 70 post on this board.

You have my sympathies.

Not a lot of love for the Wheaties in casa Kiko, as you know, but they are one of the marquee athletic programs in the conference.  Heck, I'm already carrying water for the Green Weenies on this topic; I may as well go all in.

[Gregory Sager]

Nevertheless, if it's going to be a true Hall of Fame, you start with coaches.

100% disagree with this.  Both should be represented.

No, I think that when you've got 72 years of catching up to do in terms of creating a HOF, you have to look first at the men and women who built the great programs and had long-term career achievements.

Bosko circa the past few years has shown what one of those HOF coaches looks like without great players.  Those great programs and achievements are not the result of great coaching alone, so my preference is to build a hall consisting of both.

Who brings in the great players? Do they just magically arrive on campus? Recruiting is the biggest and most important part of a coach's job. Great players typically reflect a coach who is a great recruiter, or a coach who is a great enough administrator to have hired an assistant or assistants who are great recruiters.

I'm not saying that the HOF should consist of coaches only. Far from it. I'm just saying that the first few people in should be the coaches who formed the cornerstones of long-term and/or national success.

- I don't know who the fifth would be, but it should be whomever is considered the greatest female athlete in conference history.

I would put forth Janice Swanson (NPU '90) for that distinction. She was the CCIW MOP in women's basketball in 1987-88, she was the CCIW women's cross-country champion in 1987 (she also finished third twice and fifth once), and three times (1988, 1989, and 1990) she was named the CCIW's Outstanding Performer in women's track & field, as she won the 400-meter hurdles once, the long jump twice, the triple jump once, and the heptathlon three times.

This makes sense, both because sustained success across three sports is notable, and because it gets a fifth school into my inaugural list, which was something I'd hoped to do.  So absent a better idea, I can work with this.

What I don't like about this list is not having someone from Wheaton in the inaugural class of five, but I don't know how to solve for that without weighting things too heavily toward men's sports.  I thought about a Wheaton football player, but it seems like the lead horse from that sport needs to come from Augustana.  If at all possible I'd really look for the fifth individual to come from woman's soccer, swimming, softball, etc., if a case could be made.  I can't make a good suggestion here as the only thing I really know about CCIW woman's sports is what Ypsi and 70 post on this board.

You have my sympathies.

Not a lot of love for the Wheaties in casa Kiko, as you know, but they are one of the marquee athletic programs in the conference.  Heck, I'm already carrying water for the Green Weenies on this topic; I may as well go all in.

I hope you don't think that I'm any more sympathetic towards Wheaton in light of it being left off that inaugural ballot than you are. Heck, I already feel as though I have to take a shower after touting Joe Bean's resume in my 3:42 post.

[Gregory Sager]

Carroll 76
Millikin 67

[devildog29]

Been a long time since I've posted around here, but big kudos to Carthage for their production quality on their game stream.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Still early in the 2nd half, but the Titans appear well on their way to avenging their conference opening loss.  7 minutes into the second, they lead Carthage 68-35.  Had they not lost in B'town, I wouldn't have to be chewing my nails here at the end of the conference season!

[Mr. Ypsi]

In the other big game (CCIW), NCC is up 10 on Wheaton midway thru the 2nd half.

[Gregory Sager]

Illinois Wesleyan 92
Carthage 63

It was a 22-22 tie in the first half, and then the Titans just ran away and hid.