MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[BBJones]

Coach Giovanne was either stubborn or stupid. Neither a good thing.

Disagree. The results speak for themselves.

What about Wash U not covering the inbounds pass vs. Aurora?  Major faux pas cost them the game.

Disagree about that, too. I've discussed it in detail on both the NACC and 2018 NCAA Tournament pages.

I don't think Wash U really did anything wrong in that final sequence.  I think the inbounder made a tremendous decision, and pass -- and then the kid who caught it and shot it just made a spectacular play. 

(Interesting - looks like one of the AU players was trying to call timeout before the inbounds.)

As I said on the NACC page, I strongly suspect that it was a set play by Aurora. Matt Dunn (#3) turned to the AU bench, and then immediately gestured at the guy with the ball in his hands who almost pulled the Chris Webber (#20, Ty Carlson) to give the ball to Max Vickers as Vickers was stepping across the endline to inbound the ball.

I haven't been here for long but are you God or something?  Just because you say it it is accepted as an absolute?  Humor me and let me know why I should accept your view as the only view.  Thank you. 

[devossed]

Coach Giovanne was either stubborn or stupid. Neither a good thing.

Disagree. The results speak for themselves.

What about Wash U not covering the inbounds pass vs. Aurora?  Major faux pas cost them the game.

Disagree about that, too. I've discussed it in detail on both the NACC and 2018 NCAA Tournament pages.

I don't think Wash U really did anything wrong in that final sequence.  I think the inbounder made a tremendous decision, and pass -- and then the kid who caught it and shot it just made a spectacular play. 

(Interesting - looks like one of the AU players was trying to call timeout before the inbounds.)

As I said on the NACC page, I strongly suspect that it was a set play by Aurora. Matt Dunn (#3) turned to the AU bench, and then immediately gestured at the guy with the ball in his hands who almost pulled the Chris Webber (#20, Ty Carlson) to give the ball to Max Vickers as Vickers was stepping across the endline to inbound the ball.

I haven't been here for long but are you God or something?  Just because you say it it is accepted as an absolute?  Humor me and let me know why I should accept your view as the only view.  Thank you. 

I hate to overstep my cross-conferential limitations and be the very first one to acknowledge the basicness here...but...yes...he is probably equal to 4chan, God-tier level in these parts. And not to worry, because your self-admitted "newbie" status can indeed be excused.

In fact, I'd dare say at least the 3rd commandment to be mindful of here reads something along the lines of "Thou shalt heretofore be subjugated to 'super sweetness' whenever it shall be present, SCHADENFREUDE notwithstanding."

We've come to accept that what he says IS in fact absolute...and shall be taken as gospel, without question...except in rare circumstances, when he shall be chastised for obtuse stubbornness. (This was not one of those times)

His view is generally seen as THE VIEW...regardless of whether others agree or not...and I don't say this willy-nilly...(nor dilly-dilly).

His views are to be accepted. And I do mean that in all sincerity. Integrity shall not be questioned in any manner whatsoever when this dude is on the clock.

Carry on.

[hopefan]

Coach Giovanne was either stubborn or stupid. Neither a good thing.

Disagree. The results speak for themselves.

What about Wash U not covering the inbounds pass vs. Aurora?  Major faux pas cost them the game.

Disagree about that, too. I've discussed it in detail on both the NACC and 2018 NCAA Tournament pages.

I don't think Wash U really did anything wrong in that final sequence.  I think the inbounder made a tremendous decision, and pass -- and then the kid who caught it and shot it just made a spectacular play. 

(Interesting - looks like one of the AU players was trying to call timeout before the inbounds.)

As I said on the NACC page, I strongly suspect that it was a set play by Aurora. Matt Dunn (#3) turned to the AU bench, and then immediately gestured at the guy with the ball in his hands who almost pulled the Chris Webber (#20, Ty Carlson) to give the ball to Max Vickers as Vickers was stepping across the endline to inbound the ball.

I haven't been here for long but are you God or something?  Just because you say it it is accepted as an absolute?  Humor me and let me know why I should accept your view as the only view.  Thank you. 

I hate to overstep my cross-conferential limitations and be the very first one to acknowledge the basicness here...but...yes...he is probably equal to 4chan, God-tier level in these parts. And not to worry, because your self-admitted "newbie" status can indeed be excused.

In fact, I'd dare say at least the 3rd commandment to be mindful of here reads something along the lines of "Thou shalt heretofore be subjugated to 'super sweetness' whenever it shall be present, SCHADENFREUDE notwithstanding."

We've come to accept that what he says IS in fact absolute...and shall be taken as gospel, without question...except in rare circumstances, when he shall be chastised for obtuse stubbornness. (This was not one of those times)

His view is generally seen as THE VIEW...regardless of whether others agree or not...and I don't say this willy-nilly...(nor dilly-dilly).

His views are to be accepted. And I do mean that in all sincerity. Integrity shall not be questioned in any manner whatsoever when this dude is on the clock.

Carry on.

I take this sight seriously and have a tremendous amount of respect for Greg, but this 'retort' had me rollin' on the floor with laughter....  + more than I can give you!!!

[WUPHF]

I am still a little surprised to see that Aurora in bounds play being discussed.

If the Washington University defender is keeping an eye on Myers, he is two steps behind with a chance of disrupting the pass or the shot.

Maybe we could come to a consensus on the notion that the play was well executed by Aurora and poorly executed by Washington University.  Both can certainly be true.

[devossed]

Coach Giovanne was either stubborn or stupid. Neither a good thing.

Disagree. The results speak for themselves.

What about Wash U not covering the inbounds pass vs. Aurora?  Major faux pas cost them the game.

Disagree about that, too. I've discussed it in detail on both the NACC and 2018 NCAA Tournament pages.

I don't think Wash U really did anything wrong in that final sequence.  I think the inbounder made a tremendous decision, and pass -- and then the kid who caught it and shot it just made a spectacular play. 

(Interesting - looks like one of the AU players was trying to call timeout before the inbounds.)

As I said on the NACC page, I strongly suspect that it was a set play by Aurora. Matt Dunn (#3) turned to the AU bench, and then immediately gestured at the guy with the ball in his hands who almost pulled the Chris Webber (#20, Ty Carlson) to give the ball to Max Vickers as Vickers was stepping across the endline to inbound the ball.

I haven't been here for long but are you God or something?  Just because you say it it is accepted as an absolute?  Humor me and let me know why I should accept your view as the only view.  Thank you. 

I hate to overstep my cross-conferential limitations and be the very first one to acknowledge the basicness here...but...yes...he is probably equal to 4chan, God-tier level in these parts. And not to worry, because your self-admitted "newbie" status can indeed be excused.

In fact, I'd dare say at least the 3rd commandment to be mindful of here reads something along the lines of "Thou shalt heretofore be subjugated to 'super sweetness' whenever it shall be present, SCHADENFREUDE notwithstanding."

We've come to accept that what he says IS in fact absolute...and shall be taken as gospel, without question...except in rare circumstances, when he shall be chastised for obtuse stubbornness. (This was not one of those times)

His view is generally seen as THE VIEW...regardless of whether others agree or not...and I don't say this willy-nilly...(nor dilly-dilly).

His views are to be accepted. And I do mean that in all sincerity. Integrity shall not be questioned in any manner whatsoever when this dude is on the clock.

Carry on.

I take this sight seriously and have a tremendous amount of respect for Greg, but this 'retort' had me rollin' on the floor with laughter....  + more than I can give you!!!

Ha, thanks...but realizing it was post #500 - I had convinced myself it was "go big or go home" time!

[Smitty Oom]

I am still a little surprised to see that Aurora in bounds play being discussed.

If the Washington University defender is keeping an eye on Myers, he is two steps behind with a chance of disrupting the pass or the shot.

Maybe we could come to a consensus on the notion that the play was well executed by Aurora and poorly executed by Washington University.  Both can certainly be true.

This is very true. Obviously everyone was hyped after the big shot, but WashU should have never let him get so open that far down the court, even if Aurora executed this play to perfection.

[markerickson]

Just catching up a bit on life as both parents were very recently in the hospital at the same time.  Dad is in a rehabilitation facility now and Mom has returned to independent living.

Looks like Wash U celebrated a tie, and Aurora picked up on that lapse. 

[RogK]

I'm shocked that Augustana was able to win on Saturday, or even assemble for the game. Surely their players (having faced a System team the day before) were staggering around, confused, dizzy and unwilling to heed instruction from their coach.

[HOPEful]

That's the first time I've ever seen a jump ball called because two players from the same team were holding the ball.

At least they didn't travel, step out of bounds, or both drop the ball for an easy Hope bucket.  It does kind of remind me of the time 2 U of Florida linemen were blocking each other on a play.

Actually they did travel, it just wasn't called

Congrats to Augustana and good luck moving forward. On a night the Vikings shot 11-18 from behind the arc, Hope's 1-14 from Dante, Teddy, and Jason wasn't going to get it done. If we're lucky enough to cross paths again next year, this Hope fan won't miss Dylan Sortillo.

[Gregory Sager]

Coach Giovanne was either stubborn or stupid. Neither a good thing.

Disagree. The results speak for themselves.

What about Wash U not covering the inbounds pass vs. Aurora?  Major faux pas cost them the game.

Disagree about that, too. I've discussed it in detail on both the NACC and 2018 NCAA Tournament pages.

I don't think Wash U really did anything wrong in that final sequence.  I think the inbounder made a tremendous decision, and pass -- and then the kid who caught it and shot it just made a spectacular play. 

(Interesting - looks like one of the AU players was trying to call timeout before the inbounds.)

As I said on the NACC page, I strongly suspect that it was a set play by Aurora. Matt Dunn (#3) turned to the AU bench, and then immediately gestured at the guy with the ball in his hands who almost pulled the Chris Webber (#20, Ty Carlson) to give the ball to Max Vickers as Vickers was stepping across the endline to inbound the ball.

I haven't been here for long but are you God or something?  Just because you say it it is accepted as an absolute?  Humor me and let me know why I should accept your view as the only view.  Thank you. 

This makes no sense at all. How in the world do you interpret my disagreeing with you as an insistence that "my view is the only view"?

Here's a suggestion -- and I won't make it anything more than a suggestion, because I don't want to further your impression that I consider myself divine  -- but, in the future, perhaps you might consider, you know, explaining your opinion. Why is Grey Giovanine stupid? How did Wash U not cover the inbounds pass and thus commit a "major faux pas"? You're new here, so I'll give you fair warning that this is a room in which people are expected to back up their assertions -- or they'll get shot down, and, no, I'm not necessarily the one who'll do the shooting.

People who post here generally take pride in knowing the game ... and they typically know how to back up their opinions. And long-term posters here generally earn respect for that. F'rinstance, I don't agree with WUPHF's interpretation of the end of the Aurora @ Wash U game ... but I respect him and I respect his opinion. I'm pretty sure that that's reciprocated, too.

I hate to overstep my cross-conferential limitations and be the very first one to acknowledge the basicness here...but...yes...he is probably equal to 4chan, God-tier level in these parts. And not to worry, because your self-admitted "newbie" status can indeed be excused.

In fact, I'd dare say at least the 3rd commandment to be mindful of here reads something along the lines of "Thou shalt heretofore be subjugated to 'super sweetness' whenever it shall be present, SCHADENFREUDE notwithstanding."

We've come to accept that what he says IS in fact absolute...and shall be taken as gospel, without question...except in rare circumstances, when he shall be chastised for obtuse stubbornness. (This was not one of those times)

His view is generally seen as THE VIEW...regardless of whether others agree or not...and I don't say this willy-nilly...(nor dilly-dilly).

His views are to be accepted. And I do mean that in all sincerity. Integrity shall not be questioned in any manner whatsoever when this dude is on the clock.

Carry on.

Ha! I've gotta say, devossed, that if Gregg "Red Dot" Ashabi was still around on these boards, he'd award you a lifetime pass to the Michigan Hall of Fame of Supersweetness for that post!

[Gregory Sager]

I am still a little surprised to see that Aurora in bounds play being discussed.

If the Washington University defender is keeping an eye on Myers, he is two steps behind with a chance of disrupting the pass or the shot.

Maybe we could come to a consensus on the notion that the play was well executed by Aurora and poorly executed by Washington University.  Both can certainly be true.

This is very true. Obviously everyone was hyped after the big shot, but WashU should have never let him get so open that far down the court, even if Aurora executed this play to perfection.

Since this is now, what, the third or fourth room on d3boards.com that has engaged in a discussion over the AU @ WU endgame, I suppose that it's necessary to link to the footage itself so that we can all discuss it here while looking at the evidence:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ej71jsLiOM

Here's what I see:

* There is no "hype" or "celebration" or "lapse" on the part of the Bears. They maintained discipline and immediately scrambled to cover the inbounds pass. Two of them (#11 Matt Nester and #10 Kevin Kucera) excitedly raised their arms when Nester's shot went in, but, just like their teammates, they never stopped moving their feet to get into position to pick up their men in transition. When the Aurora inbounder, #2 Max Vickers, released his 75-foot inbounds pass at 0:15 of the clip, four of the Bears -- Nester, Kucera, #22 Jack Nolan, and #50 Matt Highsmith -- were hovering around the three-point arc within a few steps of Vickers and three of his teammates (#20 Ty Carlson, #3 Matt Dunn, and #32 Garrett Hoffmann). They did their job, which for each of them was to immediately locate and close in on their man in transition defense.

Notice that all five of the Bears had begun retreating up the court once Nester's shot went in. However, most of the Spartans never went up the court with them. As I suspected, and as Wash U fan Mr. Mo (who spoke to at least one of the Spartans players after the game) confirmed, Aurora ran a set play for that final shot. That was to be expected; every college basketball team has at least one final-seconds/last-shot play that they practice all season long, and this was the one that AU head coach Lance Robinson had devised for his team. And it was ingenious -- three of the Spartans remain in the backcourt near the inbounder, while the fourth, #10 Marcus Myers, walks up the floor and then leaks out at a full sprint to the elbow of the same lateral side of the floor as the inbounder (to guarantee a direct pass with no interference from the backboard). As I said, four of the Bears clearly did their job -- they stopped in their tracks when they realized that Carlson, Dunn, and Hoffmann weren't coming up the floor with them and that Vickers was the inbounder, and they retreated to the three-point arc to cover what looked to be a short inbounds pass from Vickers.

* The controversy here -- and if I'm wrong about that, WUPHF and Smitty, please tell me -- concerns the fifth Bear, #23 Jake Knupp, who was clearly the Bear assigned to cover Myers. Knupp is the first one down the floor; you can see him backpedal out of the picture at 0:12 while Myers is still within the frame walking nonchalantly up the floor. So Knupp wasn't "two steps behind" Myers -- he actually beat Myers up the floor. So, to this point at least, Knupp is doing his job, too.

The question is whether Knupp could've prevented Myers from getting off his final shot. I maintain that he almost certainly could not have done so, and that even if he could've prevented Myers from shooting the ball he shouldn't have. Here's my explanation:

1) It's pretty much impossible, in a one-on-one situation, to prevent a quicker player from getting to a specific spot on the floor when he knows where he's going and you don't. There was no way that Knupp was going to stop Myers from getting to his selected spot at the left elbow. In fact, when you watch the clip, you realize just how quick Myers really is. He starts running at 0:14, when he's on the left edge of the frame, just shy of the Wash U midcourt logo, and when the camera picks him up again two seconds later he's already at the left elbow and has fully turned around in order to receive Vickers's pass.

2) In this scenario, the expectation is that the defender has to prevent the opponent from getting off the easiest shot. The easiest shot, of course, is a layup, so Knupp has to stay out in front of Myers to prevent him from getting close to the basket -- which didn't turn out to be relevant, because Myers moved diagonally rather than straight up the floor. The easiest area of the floor to make a shot is in the middle, so Knupp also has to stay closer to the middle of the floor than Myers. He did this as well. When the camera picks him up again at 0:15, he's in the middle of the floor, between the rings, and is still moving straight up the floor. He's doing his job -- he's cutting off the high-percentage shot, except that Myers has already elected to position himself for the lower-percentage shot. Which brings up the next point:

3) Marcus Myers is a really crappy outside shooter. Look at his numbers for the season. Coming into the Wash U game, he had gone 26-108 (.241) from behind the arc, and that's a ridiculously low percentage for someone who was shooting about four trey attempts per game. Yes, he was the NACC Player of the Year and averaged 20.8 ppg, but he was a slasher and not a shooter. Lance Robinson probably chose him to take the final shot in the designed play, as opposed to a good outside shooter such as Dunn or Carlson, because Myers gets from Point A to Point B faster than anybody else on the team.

There's a three-second interval between when Knupp backpedals out of frame and his re-emergence in the frame of the swinging camera at 0:15, where we see Knupp sprinting straight towards the basket from between the midcourt jump circle and the top of the key. That's the three seconds in which he saw Myers take off like a rocket and had to figure out what the heck Myers had in mind. You can be certain that Mark Edwards had gone over Myers's numbers with his team in Wash U's pregame prep, and I'll bet all the corn in Manito that Knupp, who was forced in a one-on-one situation to protect specific zones of the floor against a much quicker player rather than the entire forecourt, thus suspected that Myers was almost certainly going to head straight up the floor for a close-in shot in the lane rather than head off to the side for a long diagonal jumper.

4) Myers catches the ball at the elbow at 0:16 and begins to turn towards the basket. Look at where Knupp is -- he's bearing down on Myers, running along the arc towards the elbow, and is about five feet away already as Myers is beginning to turn. In other words, Knupp got there in time. He's in position to either block the shot or make contact with Myers. And this is where the salient moment of the play takes place:

5) Knupp decelerates. Stop the clip at 0:16 again. You can see Knupp lean backwards, take shorter braking steps, and put out his arms to slow himself down. He had no intention of making a flyby attempt to block Myers's shot, grab the ball, or hit Myers. Why? Because Wash U had already picked up nine personal fouls in the second half, so the Spartans were in the double bonus. If Knupp makes contact with Myers, he sends Myers to the line for two free throws with no time left on the clock and the score tied at 80-80. Myers may not be a good outside shooter, but he did hit 74% of his free throws. Odds are that if Knupp fouls Myers, Myers wins the game at the charity stripe, because Wash U would not have had any time left to respond to a made Aurora free throw or free throws.

In a fraction of a second, Knupp had to make a decision: Allow a crappy outside shooter to take a low-percentage shot, or attempt to block it or steal the ball while moving at full speed, and thus risk losing the game on free throws. I don't think that you can look at that scenario and come to any conclusion other than that Knupp made the right decision, based upon the odds.

6) The denouement of the play is that Myers raises up for a twisting, off-balance shot from twenty feet out. He is drifting to his left and is not fully squared up to the basket. It's a low-percentage shot, based upon the physics of Myers's movement, even for a great shooter. For a lousy shooter like Myers, it's nothing short of a prayer shot. The decelerating Knupp manages to brake himself enough to avoid crashing into Myers, and gets his right hand up to impede (futilely, since Myers was attempting a jumper) Myers's vision as Knupp moves past Myers to the shooter's left. The wild card on the play, Matt Highsmith, had sprinted up the left side of the floor in a panic once he realized that Vickers was heaving the ball into the forecourt, and he came pretty close to ruining what was really a properly-defended play by taking a swipe from behind at Myers's shot -- a futile one, since the ball had already left Myers's hand about three-tenths of a second before Highsmith's right-handed swipe -- that very nearly caught Myers on his follow-through, which would've been a foul and probably would've cost Wash U the game, had things gone according to form and Myers's shot had missed.

But, of course, Myers's shot didn't miss, which has led to all of this Monday morning quarterbacking.

To sum up, I maintain that the Bears did the right thing defensively, including Knupp, on the final play (although Highsmith came close to doing the wrong thing); that the Spartans perfectly executed a well-designed play; and that Myers made a shot that's got to be something like a 50-1 chance, given the shooter, the distance, the body positioning, and the circumstances.

Thus ends my Zapruder moment for the day.

Looks like Wash U celebrated a tie, and Aurora picked up on that lapse. 

You should've watched the footage of the end of that game before posting that, Mark. Watch the clip via the link that I provided above. Wash U had no celebrative lapse.

[badgerwarhawk]

That's the first time I've ever seen a jump ball called because two players from the same team were holding the ball.

We saw something up here that was unusual as well.  At the start of the fourth quarter rather than hand the ball to the player to inbound the official bounce passed the ball to a player on the floor.  It took him a couple of seconds to realize what he'd done and retrieve the ball.  The player who received the pass just stood there with a "what do you expect me to do with this" look on her face.  I'm happy to add that I did not start the clock. 

[cubs]

Don't fall for it guys....  The newbie has a strong resemblance to another guy that used to come in here and "poke the bear" on a regular basis....

Don't think it's a coincidence that the "newbie" joined the day after the previous guy last logged in.

[WUPHF]

I don't agree with WUPHF's interpretation of the end of the Aurora @ Wash U game ... but I respect him and I respect his opinion. I'm pretty sure that that's reciprocated, too.

I was all ready to tell you how you were still wrong and then I read this...that was a really nice thing to say.

I think I am far along enough in the grieving process to go work on my list of graduating and returning players and my third annual preseason UAA rankings.  You guys may be surprised or not surprised at all, but I think Washington University is in the hunt for the title next season.

[Gregory Sager]

Nester, Nolan, Hunter, Rucker, Meyer -- that's going to be a nice reload for Mark Edwards.