MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Most likely, yes. Definitely, no. Francis is cocky, but he isn't stupid. If you give his teammate a wide-open look -- especially inside the arc, since it's only a one-point game -- he'll hit him with a pass and will happily collect the game-winning assist.

Greg, I most admire your word smithery on this site but the term cocky is not how I would describe Francis,  Confident, self assured, passionate, competitive but not cocky. 
"cock·y
/ˈkäkē/Submit
adjective
conceited or arrogant, especially in a bold or impudent way.
synonyms:   arrogant, conceited, overweening, overconfident, cocksure, self-important, egotistical, presumptuous, boastful, self-assertive;"
(That's the first definition that showed up with google but other dictionaries have similar and unpleasant interpretations of cocky)
Too many words that don't typify this guy in the definition.  His coach would not tolerate him or would his teammates if he were so in reality.   
I do think though you can describe his play as different from his person.  His play may be perceived by his opponents as cocky but not by his teammates or fans, unless he misses :-)
Mark(aka +1) likes to find a Wheaton player to critique,  before it was Michael Berg, now it's Francis.
[/quote]

Wheels,

You bet I criticized Berg for the way he played the first couple of years. He spent the vast majority of his time standing in the corner. He was virtually invisible in many games, going scoreless or just registering a few points, and being out rebounded by guards. At 6' 5 or 6" he absolutely refused to go anywhere near the basket. He played as softly as the Pillsbury Doughboy, seemingly afraid of possibly getting a boo-boo.
But then in his junior and especially senior seasons when he changed his game, got much tougher, and developed into a more complete player, I lauded him. Go back and look it up.
And remember, some fellow Wheaton fans agreed with the criticism.

Re Francis—Look at the end of my above post where it starts with "and by the way." I think you'll agree that's anything BUT criticism. 

[pgkevin]

After about 10 minutes of play last night in Naperville, North Central had scored a whopping 8 points. Their only saving grace was that Carroll had only 10 in a game for which the phrase helter skelter provides an apt description. Multiple misplays by both teams, and the officiating crew, combined to present more of a two part comedy/mystery than a basketball game. This was especially true in the first half during which the question "Whats going on"? was asked multiple times throughout the arena, and which found Carroll holding a 26-22 lead when the horn sounded. The opening act had featured multiple traveling calls, bad passes, and whistles blown (and not blown) for reasons unknown to almost everyone in attendance. Most comical among those calls were the 3 or 4 not made for five seconds after the play had been completed.

Carroll hit the first two baskets of the second half to take it's largest lead of the game at 30-22. NCC then held the visitors scoreless for the next 5 minutes while cutting the lead to 30-29. The teams basically traded baskets thereafter until NCC led 41-40 with 8:04 remaining, and the issue still very much in doubt. Over the next 4 and a half minutes NCC slightly increased it's advantage and held a 50-46 lead with 4:42 left. The Cardinals then closed the deal with 3 pointers by Aiden Chang, Mike Pollock, and Connor Raridon on the next 3 possessions.

* Soph Blaise Meredith led the Cardinal attack with a game and career high 19 points, and added 5 assists, also a game high.

* Matt Cappelletti had an 11-11 double-double.

* Aiden Chang hit for 10 points on 4/6 shooting, incl. 2/3 threes, and had 3 key steals.

* Freshman Joey Buggemi—-3 minutes, 3 points!

I will admit beforehand in full disclosure that this is going to be a bit of a loaded question before I even ask it.  But two questions (maybe 1 assumption and then 1 question)...

-I'm assuming that AndOne you were at the game on Wednesday night?

-Do I recall that a season or two ago you soundly criticized an opposing player for their histrionics after making several 3 point shots?  I don't possess the effort or the technological ability to go back and find it, but I'm pretty sure this was a topic of conversation for a few days on the boards correct?

1. Yes. I was definitely at the game.
2. Yes I did, but I believe it was 3 or 4 years ago. Kind of ancient history at this point. And that has what to do with the game described above?

After Aiden Chang made both his 3 pointers Wednesday night, he did something very similar to what you commented on those years ago.  It might be ancient history, but I was just curious if you'd condemn him in the same manner.  I believe it was the "bow and arrow" celebration that drew your ire a few years ago.  Chang used that exact same celebration right in front of the Carroll bench after making his last 3 pointer of the night.  Thoughts?

[AndOne]

Aiden's 2nd 3 pointer was made on the west end from the right side-across from the NCC bench, and about as far from right in front of the Carroll bench as you could get. After he made it the guy I was sitting next to and I turned to each other and said something along the lines of "that was big," particularly in light of the fact, and this is no secret, that Aiden's 3 point shooting so far this season is nowhere near what you would expect.
Accordingly, I did not see the action you describe. If he did make such a gesture, my opinion would be that it was overboard, and he would be better off just hitting the shot and getting back on defense. Just as I thought the player 3-4 years ago should have done. Incidentally, the action I criticized at the time was the concerned player extending both arms straight out with the middle 3 fingers on each hand sticking up, and running the full length of the court like that while shaking his arms and hands up and down.
As an aside, I know that at some point in the game some smack was being exchanged by opposing players so perhaps part of such a jesture was in reaction to that. Or since, as I said, his 3 point shooting has been lacking so perhaps it was in celebration of a rare make.
Whatever the reasoning the "bow and arrow" thing seems overboard and in my opinion wrong, so I'm with you on that.
I have no problem with things like making the goggles gesture for a couple of seconds, pumping your fist once or twice, or giving yourself a thump on the chest. But fully extending both arms, hands, and 3 fingers and waving them up and down like a hyena, or shooting arrows at the opposing bench are not actions I personally agree with. Hopefully that answers your question. 🤔

[GoPerry]

Aiden's 2nd 3 pointer was made on the west end from the right side-across from the NCC bench, and about as far from right in front of the Carroll bench as you could get. After he made it the guy I was sitting next to and I turned to each other and said something along the lines of "that was big," particularly in light of the fact, and this is no secret, that Aiden's 3 point shooting so far this season is nowhere near what you would expect.
Accordingly, I did not see the action you describe. If he did make such a gesture, my opinion would be that it was overboard, and he would be better off just hitting the shot and getting back on defense. Just as I thought the player 3-4 years ago should have done. Incidentally, the action I criticized at the time was the concerned player extending both arms straight out with the middle 3 fingers on each hand sticking up, and running the full length of the court like that while shaking his arms and hands up and down.
As an aside, I know that at some point in the game some smack was being exchanged by opposing players so perhaps part of such a jesture was in reaction to that. Or since, as I said, his 3 point shooting has been lacking so perhaps it was in celebration of a rare make.
Whatever the reasoning the "bow and arrow" thing seems overboard and in my opinion wrong, so I'm with you on that.
I have no problem with things like making the goggles gesture for a couple of seconds, pumping your fist once or twice, or giving yourself a thump on the chest. But fully extending both arms, hands, and 3 fingers and waving them up and down like a hyena, or shooting arrows at the opposing bench are not actions I personally agree with. Hopefully that answers your question. 🤔

Aiden Chang torched Wheaton at King Arena last season, a game the Cardinals won handily.  After some of his key shots, he was quite demonstrative to the football players under the east goal who were jawing at him specifically the whole night.  I had no problem with this at all and was hoping that student section would sit quietly since their antics were clearly motivating(not intimidating) and focused (rather than distracted) the Cardinals.  It won't be any different next weekend when Aiden comes to King next Saturday.  I didn't know he's been struggling a little of late.  But he is a fine player.

[Gregory Sager]

Come on Mark? I think you mean come on Greg-and if you don't, you should. Here's why.

1.Those other players you refer to that Jordan passed the ball to were seasoned professional basketball players. Not college Division 3 student-athletes.

Nope. Basketball is basketball. And a big last-moment shot is a big last-moment shot, and a star is a star, and a role player is a role player. The situation's the same.

2. Furthermore, the players you mention, Paxson and Kerr were (3 point) shooting specialists. That's what they were known for. They were probably better long range shooters than Jordan.

Paxson's shot was a trey. Kerr's wasn't. Regardless, the point wasn't about distance, and you know it. The point was about a star passing the ball in the waning moments, even though everyone in the building expected him to take the shot, because a teammate was more open and the teammate's shooting the ball gave the team the better chance to win the ballgame. It's all about who has the best shot in the moment. Time and place and distance and how one's guarded mean everything. Context, Mark, context!

3. You keep saying there were 7 seconds left when Wheaton inbounded the ball on the final play. Where did you get that? You are wrong. There were only 5.2 seconds remaining. Francis didn't have as much time to get creative as you asserted. Especially when he received the ball where he did on the court.

You clearly have me mistaken for somebody else. I don't "keep saying there were 7 seconds left when Wheaton inbounded the ball on the final play." Please go back and find us a quote where I said that. In the one place where I even mentioned time I said that there were five seconds left.

4. You know, or should know that a player of Francis' magnitude and mental as well as physical toughness and skill is always going to think that he is the best option when the game is on the line! Before the ball was even inbounded I'll bet you anything Aston Francis primary thought was that he was the best one to take the shot. That's the makeup a great player has. That's part of the reason he leads the country in scoring. When the game is on the line a great player wants the ball and the outcome in his hands. Sure he would have passed to a teammate—provided that player was wide-ass open and standing either under the basket or within a few feet of it. But such was not the case.

Wow, where to begin? First of all, does Michael Jordan not meet those criteria? Second, of course every great player wants the ball and the outcome in his hands! A lot of not-so-great players do as well. But the outcome that any smart and unselfish player wants is victory -- and if the best path to victory is passing to an open teammate, then that's the path he'll take. Third, the notion that "any player of Francis' magnitude and mental as well as physical toughness and skill is always going to think he is the best option when the game is on the line" is just plain wrong. You haven't described "mental as well as physical toughness and skill" ... you've described selfishness. Francis will overshoot sometimes -- Saturday night was a classic example -- but it's out of frustration that his team isn't scoring the way that it should. He's not selfish; his eight assists on Wednesday night prove that. And, finally, the whole point I was trying to make was that if IWU had thrown a second defender at him, it would've meant (given his position on the floor) a virtual four-on-three for Wheaton. And that would've meant that, as you so colorfully put it, a Wheaton player would've been "wide-ass open" for the final shot.

5. Now, remember again only 5.2 seconds remained. Once Francis took more than 2 or 3 dribbles without passing the ball, the deal was sealed-HE was taking the final shot. After the 4th dribble you can see him cut sharply to the right to set up the shot.

I certainly agree with that. On his fourth dribble he's already well inside the forecourt and it's much too late to double-team him. At this point he's beginning to come close to his practical range. The point is moot. But that's not contradicting anything I've said. My point was about the fact that IWU chose not to double-team him from the get-go.

Furthermore.........

6. I previously said "But what Wesleyan did wrong was let Francis catch the ball so easily."
I said Bair—who was immediately to Francis' left, should have gone right with Francis when he broke to his right to receive the pass.

Um, no, you didn't say that -- at least not in full. This is what you said:

What Ron Rose forgot was the old adage across all sports namely, don't let the best guy on the other team beat you. And yes, of course, thats easier said than done. But what Wesleyan did wrong was to let Francis catch the ball so easily. Wheaton set the play for Adom to pick Francis' primary defender, Bonnett. Francis broke back to his right to start the play. I believe the IWU player to Francis' left is Bair. When Francis broke right, Bair should have been instructed to have gone with/followed him rather than just standing there like he did. This may have prevented the inbounds pass from going to Francis who was wide open to receive it once Adom picked Bonnett. There were 5 seconds left. You know once Francis got the ball he wasn't going to pass it. Wheaton was going to live or die with the shot coming from its best player. Nothing was gained by Bair just staying put. If he breaks back when Francis does, they still may have gotten the ball in to Francis, but it would have been deeper giving Francis further to go before launching the winner. Maybe that would have allowed a bit of extra time for another defender to get closer to Francis and prevent an obstile to his getting off the final shot. Maybe not. But when he got the ball so easily where he did, he only had to beat Bonnett who had bounced off Adom and picked him up. The problem is Francis had caught the ball cleanly, and had gotten up a full head of steam. I don't think you can fault Bonnett who stayed with Francis pretty well after picking him up. But its just to hard for one guy to do much with that stepback/sidestep move Francis has. The mistake was letting him catch the ball so easily.

Note the highlighted portion. You weren't talking about a double-team at all in this post. You were talking about Bair picking up Francis all by his lonesome once Adom picked Bennett. And that wouldn't have worked -- not even one bit. Take a look again at the replay. Pick it up again at the 0:05 index, which is where Francis breaks to his right prior to the inbound. He's already five feet away from Bair, is accelerating into full speed, and is moving directly away from Bair, with his back turned to the IWU big man. Bair wouldn't have had a prayer of coming close enough to him to interfere with the catch, let alone impede his path after Francis caught the ball. Bennett would've had a hard enough time staying in front of Francis in a one-on-one, open-floor situation; for Bair, who isn't as quick as Bennett, it would've been impossible. Bair wouldn't have forced Francis to catch the inbound deeper. He wouldn't have had any effect upon where Francis caught the ball at all, because, as I said, Francis on his own initiative moved far to his right to catch the pass, regardless of where any of the Titans were.

Hanging Bair out to dry like that wouldn't have done the Titans any good at all. The only other sound option that they had other than playing Wheaton straight up the way that they did was the option Tom mentioned, which was to quell Francis before he even broke for the ball by bracketing him once the ball was handed to the inbounder.

With his height maybe he could have tipped the ball away from Francis or at least force him deeper to be able to catch it.

Puh-leeze. Is Doug Bair Gumby? Is he Mister Fantastic from the Fantastic Four, or the Mom from the Incredibles? Francis broke 12-15 feet to his right to catch the inbound. Unless Bair has arms made of rubber that can extend up to ten feet long in the blink of an eye, he wasn't tipping anything away from Francis or forcing him anywhere. Again, forcing Francis to a spot on the floor where he doesn't want to go is the task of two players, not one.

But you either missed this point or ignored it because you stated "Francis would've gone around him as if he wasn't even there." OF COURSE he would have, but my point as I stated was that IWU should have made it harder for Francis to catch the ball in the first place! You completely changed what I said around!

I neither missed it nor ignored it. I scoffed at it. Bair. Could. Not. Have. Affected. Where. Francis. Caught. The. Ball. Francis himself, by moving so far to his right, made sure of that. It's that simple.

7. THEN, when Greek Tragedy said "my 2 cents is make a better effort denying Francis the ball inbounds," which is exactly what I had said, you stated "this is actually the most sensible response I've read yet. You're right Tom.

That isn't what you said at all, Mark. Read your own post again, which I've re-posted above. You were talking about Bair reacting to Adom's pick of Bennett by taking the initiative to close on Francis on the inbound. Tom talked about double-teaming Francis prior to the ball being inbounded:

My 2 cents is make a better effort denying Francis the ball on the inbounds. A simple pick got him the ball. You weren't defending the inbounder anyway. Double Francis and single cover everyone else except the guy throwing it in.

Note that Tom references the fact that the inbounder wasn't being guarded, anyway. He's talking about tactics prior to the inbound pass; you're talking about how Bair should've reacted once the inbound play was already set up and Francis was breaking behind the Adom screen. In other words, you and Tom said two completely different things.

For God sakes Greg. I say what IWU did wrong was to allow Francis to catch the ball so easily, and you basically tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Then Greek says exactly the same thing and you say thats the most sensible thing you've heard. Sorry, but you're not making sense. It's all right there. Go back and read it. First I'm an idiot for saying Francis' first inclination was to take the final shot rather than first looking to pass when just about everyone who knows the difference between a basketball and a hole in the ground would have been shocked if anything different would have happened. Then you tell me more closely defending the inbounds pass would have been foolish but agree with another poster when he says the same thing. What's going on?

What's going on is that you didn't say the same thing as Tom at all. You might've thought that you did, and in your mind you might've thought that you were saying that Francis should've been double-teamed prior to the inbound pass being released. But that isn't what you said at all. Again, you're talking about what Bair should've done ex post facto once the play began with Francis's break to the right and Adom's screen of Bennett.

[Gregory Sager]

Greg, I most admire your word smithery on this site but the term cocky is not how I would describe Francis,  Confident, self assured, passionate, competitive but not cocky. 
"cock·y
/ˈkäkē/Submit
adjective
conceited or arrogant, especially in a bold or impudent way.
synonyms:   arrogant, conceited, overweening, overconfident, cocksure, self-important, egotistical, presumptuous, boastful, self-assertive;"
(That's the first definition that showed up with google but other dictionaries have similar and unpleasant interpretations of cocky)
Too many words that don't typify this guy in the definition.  His coach would not tolerate him or would his teammates if he were so in reality.   
I do think though you can describe his play as different from his person.  His play may be perceived by his opponents as cocky but not by his teammates or fans, unless he misses :-)
Mark(aka +1) likes to find a Wheaton player to critique,  before it was Michael Berg, now it's Francis.

That's fine. I was going by how he's perceived from the stands, not by how his teammates perceive him. I withdraw the suggestion that he's cocky.

[Titan Q]

#8-Illinois Wesleyan (7-1, 1-1) at #3-Augustana (6-1, 1-0)...

Titans (7-1, 1-1)
G - Brady Rose, 6-3/185 Sr.  21.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 3.8 apg
G - Colin Bonnett, 6-4/190 Sr.  11.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 3.5 apg
G - Jason Gregoire, 6-4/205 Sr.  13.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 2.6 apg
F - Charlie Bair, 6-7/205 So.  9.1 ppg, 8.1 rpg
C - Alex O'Neill, 6-9/245 Jr.  6.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg

Vikings (6-1, 1-0)
G - Nolan Ebel, 6-1/175 Sr. 17.3 jpg, 2.6 rpg, 3.0 apg
G - Chrishawn Orange, 6-2/180 Sr.  12.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.3 apg
G - Brett Benning, 6-6/191 Sr.  12.3 rpg, 5.3 rpg, 0.7 apg
F - Pierson Wofford, 6-4/202 Jr.  14.1 ppg, 8.4 rpg
F - Micah Martin, 6-11/240 Jr.  7.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg


Pantagraph - https://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/iwu-braces-for-top-battle-with-augustana/article_b947ebcf-1611-5f97-90b7-8ec4f09c594b.html

Video - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/augustana/

Live Stats - http://www.augustana.net/athletics/mbasketball/xlive.htm

WEXG Radio - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

[Greek Tragedy]

#8-Illinois Wesleyan (7-1, 1-1) at #3-Augustana (6-1, 1-0)...

Titans (7-1, 1-1)
G - Brady Rose, 6-3/185 Sr.  21.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 4.8 apg
G - Colin Bonnett, 6-4/190 Sr.  11.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 3.5 apg
G - Jason Gregoire, 6-4/205 Sr.  13.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 2.6 apg
F - Charlie Bair, 6-7/205 So.  9.1 ppg, 8.1 rpg
C - Alex O'Neill, 6-9/245 Jr.  6.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg

Vikings (6-1, 1-0)
G - Nolan Ebel, 6-1/175 Sr. 17.3 jpg, 2.6 rpg, 3.0 apg
G - Chrishawn Orange, 6-2/180 Sr.  12.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.3 apg
G - Brett Benning, 6-6/191 Sr.  12.3 rpg, 5.3 rpg, 0.7 apg
F - Pierson Wofford, 6-4/202 Jr.  14.1 ppg, 8.4 rpg
F - Micah Martin, 6-11/240 Jr.  7.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg


Pantagraph - https://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/iwu-braces-for-top-battle-with-augustana/article_b947ebcf-1611-5f97-90b7-8ec4f09c594b.html

Video - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/augustana/

Live Stats - http://www.augustana.net/athletics/mbasketball/xlive.htm

WEXG Radio - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

Come on, Bob. No one cares about today's games yet. We're all still arguing about Wednesday's game. 

[GoPerry]

#8-Illinois Wesleyan (7-1, 1-1) at #3-Augustana (6-1, 1-0)...

Titans (7-1, 1-1)
G - Brady Rose, 6-3/185 Sr.  21.0 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 4.8 apg
G - Colin Bonnett, 6-4/190 Sr.  11.6 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 3.5 apg
G - Jason Gregoire, 6-4/205 Sr.  13.0 ppg, 2.9 rpg, 2.6 apg
F - Charlie Bair, 6-7/205 So.  9.1 ppg, 8.1 rpg
C - Alex O'Neill, 6-9/245 Jr.  6.1 ppg, 5.3 rpg

Vikings (6-1, 1-0)
G - Nolan Ebel, 6-1/175 Sr. 17.3 jpg, 2.6 rpg, 3.0 apg
G - Chrishawn Orange, 6-2/180 Sr.  12.9 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 2.3 apg
G - Brett Benning, 6-6/191 Sr.  12.3 rpg, 5.3 rpg, 0.7 apg
F - Pierson Wofford, 6-4/202 Jr.  14.1 ppg, 8.4 rpg
F - Micah Martin, 6-11/240 Jr.  7.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg


Pantagraph - https://www.pantagraph.com/sports/college/basketball/men/iwu-braces-for-top-battle-with-augustana/article_b947ebcf-1611-5f97-90b7-8ec4f09c594b.html

Video - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/augustana/

Live Stats - http://www.augustana.net/athletics/mbasketball/xlive.htm

WEXG Radio - https://portal.stretchinternet.com/iwu/

Come on, Bob. No one cares about today's games yet. We're all still arguing about Wednesday's game. 

Love this board! (and not even a cover charge)

[Gregory Sager]

Come on, Bob. No one cares about today's games yet. We're all still arguing about Wednesday's game. 

Love this board! (and not even a cover charge)

We did a nice job of killing a few days' worth of downtime, didn't we?

[Gregory Sager]

Millikin eked out a 77-75 win over Carroll at Van Male.  Elijah Henry had 21, Zach Fisher 18, Devante Harrell contributed 17, and Calvin Fisher chipped in 11 for the Big Blue, while the Pios were led by Troy Howatt's 22. He was joined in double figures by Charlie Soule, who had 18 and 7, and Nick Penny, who had 11 and 6.

[BobbyO]

Either an ugly game win forAge or a great defensive ga.e. Angie wins but 7.

[iwu70]

Two top ten teams for sure, a great battle.  IWU just too many TOs at key points tonight, esp. when up 50-47, then the big turnaround.  Tough loss.  Hopefully we get them back at home.  AC had the better poise in the last three minutes.

IWU now 7-2, 1-2.  A rough start to the CCIW race.

AC over IWU 67-60. 

Ebel had a great game.

IWU'70

[Gregory Sager]

Augustana 67, Illinois Wesleyan 60

Wheaton 92, Olivet 81

[Mr. Ypsi]

I still have high hopes that Brady Rose will be some level (hopefully first team) AA this season, but he didn't look like even all-CCIW tonight.  35% shooting (14% from deep), with as many TOs as RBs (and more TOs than assists).  Still, the loss is by no means solely on him - NO one looked all that good tonight.

So much for the top 10 ranking.   Still, with two close losses to two good teams on the road, they shouldn't drop below the mid-to-upper teens.