MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[iwu70]

Augie has a shot at 16-0 this year.  They are that strong.  I doubt they will do it, but I won't be terribly surprised if they do. 

More likely on the women's side.  IWU playing well now . . . and have a shot at it too -- they did it once, and were 13-1 a few times.  We'll see.  Too early to tell, maybe after the WC game on Jan. 2nd we'll know more -- but that's a discussion for the other Board.

Yes, as Q has pointed out, all IWU fans are awful -- and we are all exactly the same too.  LOL  Ypsi and Q agree all the time. 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

'70

[iwumichigander]

Elmhurst polished off Olivet this evening at Faganel, 87-71. Jake Rhode checked into the Hotel Francis tonight, as he exploded for 37 points on 10-13 shooting, including 6-8 from beyond the arc, and 11-14 from the line. He also had four steals.

The more I watch Rhode, the more he impresses me. IWU and Augie fans will no doubt scream bloody murder about this, but I think that Rhode belongs in the conversation with Brady Rose and Nolan Ebel if you're talking about the best guard in this league who doesn't wear a jersey with an orange #1 on it. Rhode is now second in the league in points per game behind Francis, eighth in field goal percentage at .518 (the only guards ahead of him are Jason Gregoire and Charlie Soule), third in assists per game behind Kienan Baltimore and Luke Peters, and he leads the league in steals by a country mile.

Derek Dotlich chipped in for 12 and 9 tonight, and Jeremy Ireland also had nine boards. Nick Perry played a really solid floor game with 5:0, as the Bluejays washed the bad taste out of their mouths from their trip to Indiana the other day.

Rhode is great and I look forward to watching him for a few more years. I worry though about the extent that Elmhurst relies on him this year. It seems like last years jays were a bit more balanced in the scoring department.

Thing is, though, Elmhurst's scoring balance isn't abnormal when you look around at those other teams I mentioned that have a superstar guard. Like Elmhurst, for example, Illinois Wesleyan has a featured guard who puts up twenty-plus points per game, a pair of players hovering around the 11 or 12 ppg range, and then everybody else much farther down in the single digits. Looking at some of the other non-Grinnell Central Region teams with winning records that have 20+ ppg scorers, they have similar breakdowns. UW-Stout has a 20+ ppg guy who has a teammate who scores 13.5 ppg and another one who averages 11.1 ppg. MSOE has a guy at 20.7 and a guy at 10.7, but also three players who are in the 8-10 range. Lake Forest is a little bit different in that it has a 20+ scorer, another guy at 14.8, and then three guys who are in the 10-12 range, but the Foresters are top-heavy with regard to their starters scoring all of their points; nobody off the bench who has played in at least half of LFC's games is averaging better than 3.8 ppg.

Of all of the winning teams in the region that have a player who averages an Andrew Jackson, Wheaton is far more imbalanced than anybody else when it comes to scoring; Francis is at 31 ppg, and none of his teammates are close to averaging in double digits. And if we're looking at the other CCIW team with a superstar guard that I've named, Augie is the opposite, as Ebel's 16.2 ppg is well complemented by three teammates who are also averaging double-digit points. In fact, Ebel only scored four points in Augie's rout of Rhodes the other day, and nobody blinked an eye. (He only played 13 minutes.)

So in actuality the Bluejays aren't abnormally imbalanced with regard to scoring. I think that it may feel that way for Elmhurst fans because he does so many other things for the 'jays in terms of bringing the ball up the floor, dishing out assists, being the team's best perimeter defender, grabbing long rebounds, e

Yes but .... Wheaton teammates have trouble getting the ball away from Francis . A Wheaton turnover is when Francis gives up the ball

[Mr. Ypsi]

Augie has a shot at 16-0 this year.  They are that strong.  I doubt they will do it, but I won't be terribly surprised if they do. 

More likely on the women's side.  IWU playing well now . . . and have a shot at it too -- they did it once, and were 13-1 a few times.  We'll see.  Too early to tell, maybe after the WC game on Jan. 2nd we'll know more -- but that's a discussion for the other Board.

Yes, as Q has pointed out, all IWU fans are awful -- and we are all exactly the same too.  LOL  Ypsi and Q agree all the time. 

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

'70

Can't decide if this is better characterized as 'fake news' or 'alternative facts'!

Back before the 'newer, more mellow' Mr. Ypsi, I used to get PMs from Q about other IWU fans complaining about my posts.  I told him to tell them he did the best he could, but wasn't my 'handler', so maybe they should complain to me directly.  None of them ever did.

But, yes, we are all exactly the same, Q and I never disagree, and we are all awful!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Every year Bosko Djurickovic, who has been a part of this league much longer than the other members of CCIW coaching staffs and who played against the 1972-73 Augustana team as a North Park senior, makes a little speech (usually on a Carthage gamer) when the last remaining undefeated team loses about how it's next to impossible to go undefeated in the CCIW. It's sort of our league's version of the mythical annual champagne toast of the '72 Miami Dolphins when the last remaining undefeated NFL team loses. Bosko, who knows this league better than anyone, is exactly right when he says that the season is too long and this league is just too tough and too competitive to get through it unscathed. Remember, we've had six CCIW teams win the D3 national championship since that 1972-73 season -- and none of those six got through this circuit's double round-robin without a blemish, either. If a team that had four NBA draftees couldn't get through a CCIW season without a loss, despite having three cracks at it, then I certainly doubt that anybody else could.

This framing makes it sound like an undefeated conference champion is Never Ever Gonna Happen Again... I'm gonna push on this.

Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season based on the factors you mention as well as others.  I don't expect the Augie Doggies to run the table this year.  But unlikely is different from impossible, and if they did navigate into March without a conference loss, I wouldn't say 'Where did THAT come from?!?'.

Fully agree with you on the usefulness of Massey at thus juncture in the season.

We had a similar discussion over on the women's board last year when Illinois Wesleyan had started conference play something like 6 or 7-0, and there was talk then of 16-0. I expressed my doubt that it would happen just because it had been a while. And yeah, the historical parallels are often used as a "It hasn't happened since then; why would it happen now?" I'm ultimately hesitant to say someone will run the table, but I don't know that I want to count it out. I look at it more as a, "Get to 11 or 12-0 and we'll talk," especially if some of the tougher road games are behind this hypothetical CCIW team.

Not sure what you mean by a different vibe?  Could you elaborate more on this thought?

Not sure if we've been complemented or insulted?

I'll answer your question this way: there's a reason the Meme around here is 'Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan!' and not one of the other conference members.

The weirdo in me is seriously tempted to just grab a random picture of IWU fans, caption it with "Congrats to Illinois Wesleyan," share it here, and just let the board do the rest.

Yes, but don't do it of sports fans - do it of opera fans!

[iwumichigander]

Re: Augustana going undefeated.  I'll side with Greg and SAC.  There is just too much balance this season for a 16-0. The "on any given night" appropriate this year.  And, I think by the midpoint the balance will be more prevalent.  This may well be another season where the CCIW beats each other up costing some team an NCAA tournament shot.

[Gregory Sager]

Every year Bosko Djurickovic, who has been a part of this league much longer than the other members of CCIW coaching staffs and who played against the 1972-73 Augustana team as a North Park senior, makes a little speech (usually on a Carthage gamer) when the last remaining undefeated team loses about how it's next to impossible to go undefeated in the CCIW. It's sort of our league's version of the mythical annual champagne toast of the '72 Miami Dolphins when the last remaining undefeated NFL team loses. Bosko, who knows this league better than anyone, is exactly right when he says that the season is too long and this league is just too tough and too competitive to get through it unscathed. Remember, we've had six CCIW teams win the D3 national championship since that 1972-73 season -- and none of those six got through this circuit's double round-robin without a blemish, either. If a team that had four NBA draftees couldn't get through a CCIW season without a loss, despite having three cracks at it, then I certainly doubt that anybody else could.

This framing makes it sound like an undefeated conference champion is Never Ever Gonna Happen Again... I'm gonna push on this.

Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season based on the factors you mention as well as others.  I don't expect the Augie Doggies to run the table this year.  But unlikely is different from impossible, and if they did navigate into March without a conference loss, I wouldn't say 'Where did THAT come from?!?'.

And that's why I went into CYA mode in the final sentence by using the weasel phrase "I certainly doubt that anybody else could" as opposed to "then certainly nobody else could". What I was aiming for is exactly what you described: Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season.

We had a similar discussion over on the women's board last year when Illinois Wesleyan had started conference play something like 6 or 7-0, and there was talk then of 16-0. I expressed my doubt that it would happen just because it had been a while. And yeah, the historical parallels are often used as a "It hasn't happened since then; why would it happen now?"

That's not a valid historical parallel, though. We talk about it all the time on the women's board, as you know, but it's always worth mentioning again that CCIW women's basketball is an utterly different situation than CCIW men's basketball in terms of its competitive milieu. Men's basketball in this league is far more competitive, and has a far narrower range of relative competence from team to team, than CCIW women's basketball, with a lot more churn in the standings from year to year as a result. And it's been that way ever since the league added women's basketball as a sponsored sport for the 1986-87 season. Women's basketball in this league is always about the haves and have-nots, and it has had lengthy dynasties: Augustana from the inception of the sport into the early nineties; Wheaton and Millikin battling it out for a decade and a half, with everybody else way off their pace; Millikin fading towards the end of the Oughts and Illinois Wesleyan ascending as Wheaton's annual challenger at the top; and those two programs continuing into the present as the dominant pair, with intermittent competition now and then from Carthage. You can see it in the scores, too; women's scores tend on average to be much more lopsided than the men's scores (that's true throughout D3 as a whole, too, not just in the CCIW, and as Chuck cogently pointed out last year, the cream at the top of women's teams in D3 is a much smaller portion than it is on the men's side).

As far as undefeated seasons go, it's happened three times in women's basketball in the 31 years that the sport's been sponsored by the CCIW: Augustana in 1990-91, Millikin in 1997-98, and Illinois Wesleyan in 2008-09. And in 15 of the other 28 seasons, the CCIW champion has only lost once. Compare that to men's basketball, which hasn't had a team run the table since Augie did it a decade and a half before the CCIW even started sponsoring women's basketball, and in which even a one-loss champ is relatively rare (it's only happened three times since the turn of the millennium). Heck, last year two teams shared the title at 12-4, and the year before that there were tri-champions at 11-5. No women's champ has ever lost more than three conference games, and even that's relatively rare -- it's only happened six times.

This year is no different. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Illinois Wesleyan went undefeated this season in women's basketball (I'd only be surprised if iwu70 exercised restraint in posting about it ), but I'd be very surprised if Augie managed to pull it off in men's basketball.

[Gregory Sager]

Elmhurst polished off Olivet this evening at Faganel, 87-71. Jake Rhode checked into the Hotel Francis tonight, as he exploded for 37 points on 10-13 shooting, including 6-8 from beyond the arc, and 11-14 from the line. He also had four steals.

The more I watch Rhode, the more he impresses me. IWU and Augie fans will no doubt scream bloody murder about this, but I think that Rhode belongs in the conversation with Brady Rose and Nolan Ebel if you're talking about the best guard in this league who doesn't wear a jersey with an orange #1 on it. Rhode is now second in the league in points per game behind Francis, eighth in field goal percentage at .518 (the only guards ahead of him are Jason Gregoire and Charlie Soule), third in assists per game behind Kienan Baltimore and Luke Peters, and he leads the league in steals by a country mile.

Derek Dotlich chipped in for 12 and 9 tonight, and Jeremy Ireland also had nine boards. Nick Perry played a really solid floor game with 5:0, as the Bluejays washed the bad taste out of their mouths from their trip to Indiana the other day.

Rhode is great and I look forward to watching him for a few more years. I worry though about the extent that Elmhurst relies on him this year. It seems like last years jays were a bit more balanced in the scoring department.

Thing is, though, Elmhurst's scoring balance isn't abnormal when you look around at those other teams I mentioned that have a superstar guard. Like Elmhurst, for example, Illinois Wesleyan has a featured guard who puts up twenty-plus points per game, a pair of players hovering around the 11 or 12 ppg range, and then everybody else much farther down in the single digits. Looking at some of the other non-Grinnell Central Region teams with winning records that have 20+ ppg scorers, they have similar breakdowns. UW-Stout has a 20+ ppg guy who has a teammate who scores 13.5 ppg and another one who averages 11.1 ppg. MSOE has a guy at 20.7 and a guy at 10.7, but also three players who are in the 8-10 range. Lake Forest is a little bit different in that it has a 20+ scorer, another guy at 14.8, and then three guys who are in the 10-12 range, but the Foresters are top-heavy with regard to their starters scoring all of their points; nobody off the bench who has played in at least half of LFC's games is averaging better than 3.8 ppg.

Of all of the winning teams in the region that have a player who averages an Andrew Jackson, Wheaton is far more imbalanced than anybody else when it comes to scoring; Francis is at 31 ppg, and none of his teammates are close to averaging in double digits. And if we're looking at the other CCIW team with a superstar guard that I've named, Augie is the opposite, as Ebel's 16.2 ppg is well complemented by three teammates who are also averaging double-digit points. In fact, Ebel only scored four points in Augie's rout of Rhodes the other day, and nobody blinked an eye. (He only played 13 minutes.)

So in actuality the Bluejays aren't abnormally imbalanced with regard to scoring. I think that it may feel that way for Elmhurst fans because he does so many other things for the 'jays in terms of bringing the ball up the floor, dishing out assists, being the team's best perimeter defender, grabbing long rebounds, e

Yes but .... Wheaton teammates have trouble getting the ball away from Francis . A Wheaton turnover is when Francis gives up the ball

Now, now, let's be fair. Francis ranks seventh in the CCIW in assists.

(As usual, defending a Wheaton player is making me feel queasy.)

Re: Augustana going undefeated.  I'll side with Greg and SAC.  There is just too much balance this season for a 16-0. The "on any given night" appropriate this year.  And, I think by the midpoint the balance will be more prevalent.  This may well be another season where the CCIW beats each other up costing some team an NCAA tournament shot.

This. I mentioned a few days ago that right now the CCIW looks like Augustana and eight flawed teams. But the beauty of a basketball season is that it's always in flux. What's true today isn't necessarily going to be true tomorrow, and I agree that there's a very good chance that one or two or three of the non-sportscoat-flinging-coach teams will get their act together and bring more balance into the CCIW scenario.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Agree with Greg.  Augie going 16-0 would shock me.  IWU going 16-0 in the women's would only mildly stun (and greatly please) me.  It's only ten seasons since a women's team (IWU during their great 2007-2012 run where they went 66-4 in conference play); it's now 46 seasons since Augie went unbeaten.  The women's game is gradually achieving parity, but it is still eons behind the men's game in that regard.

[Gregory Sager]

D3 basketball may be gradually achieving parity on the women's side, or it may not; I'll leave it to our resident expert Gordon Mann to answer that question, since he drops in here from time to time. But it's certainly not achieving parity in the CCIW. It's as lopsided this season as it's always been. Even after only 16 games apiece there's already a significant difference in scoring margin between the men and the women; in CCIW men's games the scoring margin averages 11.81 ppg, while in CCIW women's games the scoring margin averages 13.88 ppg. That's a 15% difference.

[Mr. Ypsi]

D3 basketball may be gradually achieving parity on the women's side, or it may not; I'll leave it to our resident expert Gordon Mann to answer that question, since he drops in here from time to time. But it's certainly not achieving parity in the CCIW. It's as lopsided this season as it's always been. Even after only 16 games apiece there's already a significant difference in scoring margin between the men and the women; in CCIW men's games the scoring margin averages 11.81 ppg, while in CCIW women's games the scoring margin averages 13.88 ppg. That's a 15% difference.

That may (or may not) be statistically significant, but it doesn't feel significant in the real world.  On Daryl Nester's 'How They Fared' reports, I'm used to seeing low-double-digit differences in men's scores (and lots of red ink on the page) vs. monkey-stomps (and worse) on the women's with very little red ink.  While I'm hardly an expert on the women's game, I think the CCIW may be LESS unbalanced than the average conference.

[kiko]

Every year Bosko Djurickovic, who has been a part of this league much longer than the other members of CCIW coaching staffs and who played against the 1972-73 Augustana team as a North Park senior, makes a little speech (usually on a Carthage gamer) when the last remaining undefeated team loses about how it's next to impossible to go undefeated in the CCIW. It's sort of our league's version of the mythical annual champagne toast of the '72 Miami Dolphins when the last remaining undefeated NFL team loses. Bosko, who knows this league better than anyone, is exactly right when he says that the season is too long and this league is just too tough and too competitive to get through it unscathed. Remember, we've had six CCIW teams win the D3 national championship since that 1972-73 season -- and none of those six got through this circuit's double round-robin without a blemish, either. If a team that had four NBA draftees couldn't get through a CCIW season without a loss, despite having three cracks at it, then I certainly doubt that anybody else could.

This framing makes it sound like an undefeated conference champion is Never Ever Gonna Happen Again... I'm gonna push on this.

Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season based on the factors you mention as well as others.  I don't expect the Augie Doggies to run the table this year.  But unlikely is different from impossible, and if they did navigate into March without a conference loss, I wouldn't say 'Where did THAT come from?!?'.

And that's why I went into CYA mode in the final sentence by using the weasel phrase "I certainly doubt that anybody else could" as opposed to "then certainly nobody else could". What I was aiming for is exactly what you described: Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season.

Hmmm... I read "I certainly doubt that anyone else could" as the equivalent of "I don't think that anyone else could", which is why I pushed as it seems like this is closing the door to the possibility.  But fair enough -- looks like we are landing in more or less the same place on this.

Augie has a shot at 16-0 this year.  They are that strong.  I doubt they will do it, but I won't be terribly surprised if they do. 

More likely on the women's side.  IWU playing well now . . . and have a shot at it too -- they did it once, and were 13-1 a few times.  We'll see.  Too early to tell, maybe after the WC game on Jan. 2nd we'll know more -- but that's a discussion for the other Board.

Agree with Greg.  Augie going 16-0 would shock me.  IWU going 16-0 in the women's would only mildly stun (and greatly please) me.  It's only ten seasons since a women's team (IWU during their great 2007-2012 run where they went 66-4 in conference play); it's now 46 seasons since Augie went unbeaten.  The women's game is gradually achieving parity, but it is still eons behind the men's game in that regard.

A conversation about Augie's chances of going undefeated in conference play somehow pivots to a discussion of the prospects for the Titan women's team doing so?  Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan!

[augie77]

Hail to IWU Opera!!

I would be shocked if Augie went undefeated. The conference is just too strong, and anything can happen on a given night.  Any team in the conference is capable of beating any other team.  Just look at North Park and what they've already done.  I'll be thrilled if Augustana goes 13-3 to win the CCIW regular season.

[GoPerry]

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Illinois Wesleyan went undefeated this season in women's basketball (I'd only be surprised if iwu70 exercised restraint in posting about it ),

so which statement is the highly, highly, highly unlikely one. . . !?

[lmitzel]

Every year Bosko Djurickovic, who has been a part of this league much longer than the other members of CCIW coaching staffs and who played against the 1972-73 Augustana team as a North Park senior, makes a little speech (usually on a Carthage gamer) when the last remaining undefeated team loses about how it's next to impossible to go undefeated in the CCIW. It's sort of our league's version of the mythical annual champagne toast of the '72 Miami Dolphins when the last remaining undefeated NFL team loses. Bosko, who knows this league better than anyone, is exactly right when he says that the season is too long and this league is just too tough and too competitive to get through it unscathed. Remember, we've had six CCIW teams win the D3 national championship since that 1972-73 season -- and none of those six got through this circuit's double round-robin without a blemish, either. If a team that had four NBA draftees couldn't get through a CCIW season without a loss, despite having three cracks at it, then I certainly doubt that anybody else could.

This framing makes it sound like an undefeated conference champion is Never Ever Gonna Happen Again... I'm gonna push on this.

Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season based on the factors you mention as well as others.  I don't expect the Augie Doggies to run the table this year.  But unlikely is different from impossible, and if they did navigate into March without a conference loss, I wouldn't say 'Where did THAT come from?!?'.

And that's why I went into CYA mode in the final sentence by using the weasel phrase "I certainly doubt that anybody else could" as opposed to "then certainly nobody else could". What I was aiming for is exactly what you described: Having an undefeated team is highly, highly, highly unlikely in almost every season.

Hmmm... I read "I certainly doubt that anyone else could" as the equivalent of "I don't think that anyone else could", which is why I pushed as it seems like this is closing the door to the possibility.  But fair enough -- looks like we are landing in more or less the same place on this.

Augie has a shot at 16-0 this year.  They are that strong.  I doubt they will do it, but I won't be terribly surprised if they do. 

More likely on the women's side.  IWU playing well now . . . and have a shot at it too -- they did it once, and were 13-1 a few times.  We'll see.  Too early to tell, maybe after the WC game on Jan. 2nd we'll know more -- but that's a discussion for the other Board.

Agree with Greg.  Augie going 16-0 would shock me.  IWU going 16-0 in the women's would only mildly stun (and greatly please) me.  It's only ten seasons since a women's team (IWU during their great 2007-2012 run where they went 66-4 in conference play); it's now 46 seasons since Augie went unbeaten.  The women's game is gradually achieving parity, but it is still eons behind the men's game in that regard.

A conversation about Augie's chances of going undefeated in conference play somehow pivots to a discussion of the prospects for the Titan women's team doing so?  Congratulations to Illinois Wesleyan!

I really need to find something else to do during halftime of non-conference games.

[kiko]

Today's games were all matinees with the holidays approaching.

North Central 67, Illinois College 63 in Naperville
UW-Lacrosse 58, Carroll 54 in Waukesha
Rose-Hulman 102, Millikin 75 in Terre Haute


North Central had a difficult time putting away the Blue Boys today; IC had the ball and a chance to tie when Blaise Meredith blocked a close-in shot with 12 ticks left to seal the win for North Central.

Millikin was down 21 at the half in their loss.  The Engineers shot 67% from the floor in the first half and 69% in the second, and also hit on 60% of their shots from deep.

LaCrosse trailed by 1 at the half but took the lead for good with just under six minutes to play before holding off the Pios.  Carroll shot just 35% from the field on the afternoon.