MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

AndOne, I'm not positive about this, but I believe the NCAA counts conference tournament games as 'regular season' for most purposes.

[AndOne]

I haven't heard that one Ypsi, but anything is possible. One question I would have is if one team lost their first conference tourney game and went out, and another team played two or possibly more conference tourney games how would the NCAA view that discrepancy as far as "regular" season. Also, in some conferences 4 teams make the tourney, in some 6 might make it, and there might be conferences where everybody makes it. Again, what number represents "regular" season when conference formats vary so much? As I mentioned previously, I also wonder about the August, 2018 language mentioning a "standard basketball denominator" as 26 games and whether all D3 teams can now play 26 games before a conference tournament instead of the 25 we are used to.
I'm sure one of our learned posters will have the answers. 🤗

[GoPerry]

Aiden Chang Instagram post...

"Two days before my injury I accepted a job as a Consulting Analyst at @accenture. I'm extremely lucky to announce that they're allowing me to start work in May of 2020, so that I can enroll in Graduate school and receive my Masters in Organizational Leadership. This will also allow me to finish my basketball career at North Central College as a medical hardship. A huge weight off my shoulders knowing I'll be able to finish out my dream and I'm ecstatic for this opportunity. Tough times don't last, tough people do! #WeAreNC"

That's great news for NCC and Aiden Chang.  I'm sure King Arena will be glad to see him on the court.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I haven't heard that one Ypsi, but anything is possible. One question I would have is if one team lost their first conference tourney game and went out, and another team played two or possibly more conference tourney games how would the NCAA view that discrepancy as far as "regular" season. Also, in some conferences 4 teams make the tourney, in some 6 might make it, and there might be conferences where everybody makes it. Again, what number represents "regular" season when conference formats vary so much? As I mentioned previously, I also wonder about the August, 2018 language mentioning a "standard basketball denominator" as 26 games and whether all D3 teams can now play 26 games before a conference tournament instead of the 25 we are used to.
I'm sure one of our learned posters will have the answers. 🤗

Hopefully one of them  will, 'cause I sure don't!  Counting the first round of conference tourneys as 'regular season' is just a vague memory I have of having seen somewhere.  Sorry.

[kiko]

I haven't heard that one Ypsi, but anything is possible. One question I would have is if one team lost their first conference tourney game and went out, and another team played two or possibly more conference tourney games how would the NCAA view that discrepancy as far as "regular" season. Also, in some conferences 4 teams make the tourney, in some 6 might make it, and there might be conferences where everybody makes it. Again, what number represents "regular" season when conference formats vary so much? As I mentioned previously, I also wonder about the August, 2018 language mentioning a "standard basketball denominator" as 26 games and whether all D3 teams can now play 26 games before a conference tournament instead of the 25 we are used to.
I'm sure one of our learned posters will have the answers. 🤗

Hopefully one of them  will, 'cause I sure don't!  Counting the first round of conference tourneys as 'regular season' is just a vague memory I have of having seen somewhere.  Sorry.

Sounds like a personal invitation from Mr. Ypsi to get Ypsi'ed!

I think if schools were allowed to play 26 games before a conference tournament, there would be a ton of institutions doing so already, so I would be surprised if this is the answer.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I believe they add the extra game to account for post-season.  Yeah, not everybody has a post-season opportunity, but most teams have the chance to play one game.  They're always looking for ways to help kids, especially when it comes to injury.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

As has been discussed, all teams are allowed to play 25-game in season - that is the max. There 26-game max takes into account conference tournaments. Any and all conference tourney games are considered "one game" as part of the 26. Just because there are 26 games then allowed does NOT mean a team can schedule 26 actual games if they think they will not make the conference tournament. 25 is still the max there to be eligible for basically anything (i.e. Pool B teams with no conference tournament for at-large opportunities).

It used to be 25 was the magic number considering the conference tournament as well. That was changed a few year ago to allow the 25 games to be what coaches would actually schedule in a season.

The math for an injury is based on the amount of games a team plays in the regular season, I believe. The idea being how much impact did the student-athlete have on the team in it's entirety. So NCC played 27 games(?) and I think it is added up to that or the 26. I can try and get an answer on that, but sometimes those answers are harder to come by (I ask around to those with compliance experience and they either know or say ask someone else; I try and ask the NCAA, but the one thing absolutely lacking is the ability for media to ask "what if's" on compliance items - no options at all to do so).

[AndOne]

So, if I am interpreting Dave's above post correctly, if the 6th place CCIW team beats #3 (in accordance with the new conference tourney setup) in the first round of the conference tourney (their 26th game of the season), then beats #1 in the second round (27th game), and goes on to play in the conference tourney championship game (game #28), they are looked at as still only having played 26 games, as opposed to 28, due to the fact that, as Dave said, "any and all conference tourney games are considered one game as part of the 26."

Bottom line wise then, it appears that when considering a medical hardship/"redshirt" application, the maximum number of games a player can participate in is 9 no matter if his/her team makes it's conference tourney or not. This is due to the fact that if a team doesn't qualify for it's conference tourney and thus plays 25 games, the NCAA takes 1/3 of those 25 games (8.3) and rounds that number up to 9. If a team does quality for conference tournament play, they are viewed as having played 26 games (the standard basketball denominator), no matter how many games they play in that tournament. 1/3rd of that 26 being 8.6 which is also rounded up to 9.

So it appears that no matter if a team qualifies for it's conference tourney or not, the (new?) "magic" number of games a basketball student-athlete can play in since at least August, 2018, and be eligible for a medical hardship/redshirt is 9. I say "new" because the number I've always heard/thought, and the number I've always heard others also thought was correct, was 8. 🤔 🙂

Accordingly, in Aiden Chang's case, it seems a med hardship was always a possibility as he was injured in the 9th game of last season.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

That's a roundabout way to get to it, but yes, I do believe nine is a relatively new number that was put it to standardize the process.  This way a guy isn't penalized if his team plays fewer games than everyone else.

[kiko]

So, if I am interpreting Dave's above post correctly, if the 6th place CCIW team beats #3 (in accordance with the new conference tourney setup) in the first round of the conference tourney (their 26th game of the season), then beats #1 in the second round (27th game), and goes on to play in the conference tourney championship game (game #28), they are looked at as still only having played 26 games, as opposed to 28, due to the fact that, as Dave said, "any and all conference tourney games are considered one game as part of the 26."

Bottom line wise then, it appears that when considering a medical hardship/"redshirt" application, the maximum number of games a player can participate in is 9 no matter if his/her team makes it's conference tourney or not. This is due to the fact that if a team doesn't qualify for it's conference tourney and thus plays 25 games, the NCAA takes 1/3 of those 25 games (8.3) and rounds that number up to 9. If a team does quality for conference tournament play, they are viewed as having played 26 games (the standard basketball denominator), no matter how many games they play in that tournament. 1/3rd of that 26 being 8.6 which is also rounded up to 9.

So it appears that no matter if a team qualifies for it's conference tourney or not, the (new?) "magic" number of games a basketball student-athlete can play in since at least August, 2018, and be eligible for a medical hardship/redshirt is 9. I say "new" because the number I've always heard/thought, and the number I've always heard others also thought was correct, was 8. 🤔 🙂

Accordingly, in Aiden Chang's case, it seems a med hardship was always a possibility as he was injured in the 9th game of last season.

I interpreted his post differently:

- Everyone starts with a floor of 26, even if you don't make the conference tournament.  This way you are not penalized if your team doesn't make it, or if your conference doesn't have one.

- From his last paragraph, Dave is not sure if the count maxes out at 26 even if a team plays a 27th "regular season" game (or 28th, if they play three conference tournament games).  He said he can explore getting an answer, but cannot go straight to the horse's mouth as the NCAA does not typically answer hypothetical what-if questions from the media on matters related to compliance.  (Which is, of course, completely on-brand for the association...)

Obviously it doesn't matter whether North Central's number was 26 or 27 last year; these both round up to nine.  The only reason this question matters is if a team plays that 28th game, which, under different interpretations, could land you at 9 (one-third of 26) or could land you at 10 (one-third of 28) as the cutoff point.

[AndOne]

Not so sure of that, Kiko.

I'm not sure that with regard to the possibility of being granted a medical hardship, which is the crux of the matter here, that any number besides 9 matters. Here's why-

When you are talking about the number of games used in the computation of the maximum number of contests a player can participate in and still be eligible for a hardship, it seems only "regular" season games are counted with the regular season being considered to be a team's first 25 games (conference + non-conference) plus any conference tournament games, all of which are evidently counted as one, and thus becoming a team's standard basketball denominator of 26.

With regard then to consideration of a possible med hardship the question arises as to whether or not, in the eyes of the NCAA, a team can even play more than 26 (the first 25 with all conference tourney games counted as one and becoming game #26) games. Again, if the "regular" season only includes games prior to the national tournament, the answer is no.

If national tourney games do count, then NCC can be said to have played 28 games this year—-the 25 conference and non-conference games, plus the 2 CCIW tourney games counted as one making 26, plus the Chatham and Loras games for a total of 28. 1/3rd of 28 being 9.3 which would be rounded up to 10. In Aiden Chang's case, I don't believe he would have even been eligible for consideration of a medical hardship had he played in NCC's 10th game last season. I think that no matter how far your team goes in the national tournament, the gig is up as far as the possibility of a med hardship once you play more than 9 games.

As you said, as far as the futility of Dave going directly to the horse's mouth due to the NCAA's usual "on brand" practice of not answering hypothetical, what-if questions from the media, maybe he can persuade them to release a redacted report!   

[kiko]

To be clear, I have no POV on this question.  My point was that I read Dave's post differently than you did.  I have no idea what the correct interpretation is.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I will be getting the exact information confirmed soon. However, most I have talked to say it's based on either 25 or 26 games ... and that 9 games tends to be the norm for the max. I will let you know soon enough on the exact wording and considerations.

[AndOne]

Thanks, Dave. 👍

I think the main takeaways here are;
1. The NCAA considering any and all conference tournament games as one.
2. That the number of games a player can participate in and still be eligible for a med hardship/redshirt is 9 when I think most people had historically thought it to be 8.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I'm not sure where people have thought it was 8 ... I've had the number as 9 in my head for several years now. But again, I don't know where the math was that got me/us there ... that would be helpful.