MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[GoPerry]

I was also wondering to whom Tim Martin was referring when he twice said that the "CCIW experts" had said that Wheaton wouldn't win ten games all season and that Wheaton would miss the CCIW tournament. To whom was he referring? The CCIW coaches poll slotted Wheaton sixth, and it's a six-team tournament, so he couldn't have been referring to the coaches.

I'd like to know if someone actually said that, or if that is just a made up thing that sounds good on the broadcast.

I think everyone generally picked Wheaton 5th or 6th, which is clearly in the CCIW tournament field...and which almost certainly equates to greater than 10 wins.

Exactly.

And since he said "experts" -- plural -- my first thought was that he might've been referring to the coaches. My second thought was that he might've been collectively referring to CCIW Chat regulars like us, but I've double-checked all of the posts both in this room and in the multi-regional rooms, and nobody ever posted that Wheaton would fail to win ten games in 2019-20 and/or miss the 2020 CCIW tournament.

I don't want to make it seem like I'm coming down hard on him, because I thought that he did a good job today, but I can't help wondering to whom he was referring.

Seems to me that a goal for the Thunder this year will simply be making the conference tournament.  Without knowing of any significant freshman contributions, I'm not sure they can win 10 games.  Mike Schauer will be replacing 5 players, including Spencer Peterson, from their '18-'19 regular rotation – or trying to at least.  And make that 6 if you throw in Luke Anthony's uncertain availability to rejoin the team.  He figures to likely miss the first six non-con games and maybe(probably?) the first two conference games Dec 4 and 7 (@IWU, @ MU). 

Until then, they will be relying on Anajuwon Spencer, Tyson Cruickshank and Nyameye Adom to pick up the scoring slack, rebounding slack, defensive slack, distribute per diems and lead devotions.  Cade Alioth has seen off/on playing time the last two seasons and needs to step into a bigger role. Same for Viking slayer Gavin Hawkins.  Besides those five, no other current roster player has seen the floor but several could go immediately to 15+ mins.  Undoubtedly there will be minutes for one or two of the freshmen.

I guess he might have been referring to this nutjob post by some overly pessimistic poster who is definitely NOT an expert.  Ecstatic to be wrong by the way.  Not wrong yet but hope to be soon.

[Gregory Sager]

Whoops! Guess that I overlooked that post.

Way to fall on your sword, GP.

[GoPerry]

Whoops! Guess that I overlooked that post.

Way to fall on your sword, GP.

I'm wrong a lot - just ask my wife . . .

[kiko]

Whoops! Guess that I overlooked that post.

Way to fall on your sword, GP.

I'm wrong a lot - just ask my wife . . .

I'd go with "I'm an expert... you can look it up on the internet!"

[Jameswys]

Millikin 63
Washington (MO) 61

Forget that Olivet-over-Calvin upset, because it was nothing compared to this one.

I'd disagree, with the utmost bias of course. A 2 point win, in my mind, falls under the 'Any Given Sunday' (or Saturday/Wednesday) category. An upset to be sure, but almost an accident by the higher ranked team. I'm not trying to take anything away from Milliken, but a 15 point, pull away performance is a big win. A two point game, while great in an upset, isn't as good!

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Millikin 63
Washington (MO) 61

Forget that Olivet-over-Calvin upset, because it was nothing compared to this one.

I'd disagree, with the utmost bias of course. A 2 point win, in my mind, falls under the 'Any Given Sunday' (or Saturday/Wednesday) category. An upset to be sure, but almost an accident by the higher ranked team. I'm not trying to take anything away from Milliken, but a 15 point, pull away performance is a big win. A two point game, while great in an upset, isn't as good!

I've been told, but not confirmed, that WashU was down two starters for this one.

[Titan Q]

Millikin 63
Washington (MO) 61

Forget that Olivet-over-Calvin upset, because it was nothing compared to this one.

I'd disagree, with the utmost bias of course. A 2 point win, in my mind, falls under the 'Any Given Sunday' (or Saturday/Wednesday) category. An upset to be sure, but almost an accident by the higher ranked team. I'm not trying to take anything away from Milliken, but a 15 point, pull away performance is a big win. A two point game, while great in an upset, isn't as good!

I've been told, but not confirmed, that WashU was down two starters for this one.

Correct.  Wash U played without two starters:
G - Matt Nester, 5-11/190 Sr.  9.6 ppg, 2.5 rpg, 2.9 app, .408 FG
C - Hank Hunter, 6-9/235 Sr.   9.3 ppg, 6.4 rpg, .709 FG

They were replaced in the starting lineup by:
G - Payden Webb, 6-0/170 Jr.  5.1 ppg, 0.6 rpg, 1.0 apg, .412 FG
F - Spencer Boehm, 6-7/225 Fr.  2.5 ppg, 2.2 rpg, .478 FG

[Titan Q]

IWU hosts Millikin Saturday. The Titans and Big Blue have played 230 times. The 1st game was in IWU's 1st season of basketball (1909-10) and the schools have played every season since except '43-44 and '44-45.

This is one of the oldest rivalries in college basketball.

[Gregory Sager]

Millikin 63
Washington (MO) 61

Forget that Olivet-over-Calvin upset, because it was nothing compared to this one.

I'd disagree, with the utmost bias of course. A 2 point win, in my mind, falls under the 'Any Given Sunday' (or Saturday/Wednesday) category. An upset to be sure, but almost an accident by the higher ranked team. I'm not trying to take anything away from Milliken, but a 15 point, pull away performance is a big win. A two point game, while great in an upset, isn't as good!

I've been told, but not confirmed, that WashU was down two starters for this one.

I mentioned it here yesterday in my game report:

Wash U fans can't blame this one on the Bears coming down with a case of eggnogitis, because #10 Wash U went up by 13 at 28-15 with five minutes and change to go in the first half, and in spite of the fact that they were missing starters Hank Hunter and Matt Nester the crispness of their offense led me to believe that they were going to pull away from a clearly outmanned Millikin team. (Honestly, I didn't think that they'd need Nester and Hunter at all, given the disparity of results thus far between the two teams.)

But kudos to the Big Blue, who knuckled down and made it a close game by the half -- and then never went away. They tied it up with fifteen minutes and change, but then the Bears again got out to a 10-point lead at 62-52, as their inside-out game started clicking and they started knocking down treys while MU went through a string of one-and-outs. But the Big Blue really did a great job of fighting hard on defense to make things difficult for the Bears from that point onward, and Millikin finally went ahead with two minutes and change to go on a Zach Fisher trey. From there it was a seesaw affair. With the score tied at 61 and 38 seconds left on the clock, Jack Nolan got called for traveling on a drive in the lane. MU responded calmly by running down the clock and working the ball in to Calvin Fisher, who missed a bunny but then tipped in his own miss with 7.6 seconds remaining to give MU the lead. As GoPerry mentioned, Nolan wanted a foul called on his last trey attempt, which fell well short of the rim, but the refs weren't buying it, as both Nolan and Pat Juckem chased the refs out of the gym. (Kudos to both for coming back in time to get into the handshake line.)

Biggest upset I've seen thus far this season. The Fisher brothers were tremendous; Zach finished with 18, Calvin had 15 and 6, and the frequently-forgotten Korbin Farmer grabbed seven boards, while Sam Stichnote had a nice 4:2 floor game.

Millikin only led for 48 seconds in this game. It's only MU's third win of the season against nine losses, the previous two wins coming over Illinois College (3-6) by a point and Blackburn (3-7) by 11.

[Gregory Sager]

Millikin 63
Washington (MO) 61

Forget that Olivet-over-Calvin upset, because it was nothing compared to this one.

I'd disagree, with the utmost bias of course. A 2 point win, in my mind, falls under the 'Any Given Sunday' (or Saturday/Wednesday) category. An upset to be sure, but almost an accident by the higher ranked team. I'm not trying to take anything away from Milliken, but a 15 point, pull away performance is a big win. A two point game, while great in an upset, isn't as good!

As an unbiased observer, I have to strongly disagree with you. Wash U is ranked #10 in the nation and has a legit chance to not only win a power conference, the UAA (if it can overcome #2 Emory), but to go deep into the D3 tourney as well. Carthage, while ranked #18 and a strong team in its own right, is not quite at the same level as the Bears. Moreover, Olivet has been stronger than Millikin this season, in spite of the fact that the two teams have the same number of wins. Olivet came into yesterday's game having just registered a solid 10-point win over Westminster (PA), which has a winning record and is a strong candidate to win the PAC title this season. Millikin's wins prior to yesterday, by contrast, were a one-point win over injury-plagued Illinois College (3-6) and an 11-point win over Blackburn (3-7), one of whose three victories came at the expense of that redoubtable basketball colossus St. Louis College of Pharmacy. In other words, the Comets came into yesterday's game on the upside, with a nice win in their most recent game under their belts. The Big Blue came into their game yesterday groping for some sort of success, with really nothing to show for their season thus far.

[USee]

Millikin 63
Washington (MO) 61

Forget that Olivet-over-Calvin upset, because it was nothing compared to this one.

I'd disagree, with the utmost bias of course. A 2 point win, in my mind, falls under the 'Any Given Sunday' (or Saturday/Wednesday) category. An upset to be sure, but almost an accident by the higher ranked team. I'm not trying to take anything away from Milliken, but a 15 point, pull away performance is a big win. A two point game, while great in an upset, isn't as good!

I would call a 2 pt win by a 3-9 team that is 0-3 in the CCIW (with 2 losses by more than 20 and a loss on the same floor to Alma by 29) over a#10 ranked WashU a pretty major upset. WashU had to have been favored by double digits in that game even with the 2 starters out. It's not like Millikin won by shooting lights out. They shot the ball from the arc at 28% and WashU shot it 30%. The sats are not lopsided in any way toward one team or the other. All else being equal I am pretty sure most people would have said this would be a comfortable win for WashU. "Any Given Sunday" would have been if Millikin shot 60% from 3 on their own floor while WashU shot 28%. a 15 pt, pull away performance by two equally matched teams would be a big win (like IWU over WashU earlier last month).

This was a shocker to most people I suspect.

[WUPHF]

This conversation has certainly run its course, but hey...

First, I am not convinced that most fans of [insert CCIW team here] who are the level of fandom to feel compelled to come here and comment on games are going to be unbiased in their opinions on CCIW games with non-conference opponents.

As the old adage on tribalism goes, me against my brother; me and my brother against my cousin; me and my brother and my cousin against my neighbor.

This goes for fans of all teams of course.

Second, the question of whether or not the Millikin win was an upset starts with the question of whether or not Washington University is a Top 10 team without two of its most important senior-starters.  In my mind, the answer is most certainly not.  I am not sure if they are a Top 25 team at this point in the season with their SOS.

And I am pumped about the guys who will take over next season, but take the starting point guard and starting center off any Top 25 team and what do you have?  Do this with Emory and you do not have a Top 10 team for sure.

I'll say too that the stats from the missing players were mentioned but as we all know, the player is more than the stat sheet.  Definitely the case with the point guard who is the co-heart and soul of the team and one of the best three-point shooters in the league.

It was mentioned that Washington University appeared to be crisp in their offense but this is a team that had the second best offense in the league against the second best strength of schedule.  They finished 19 points under the season average. 

No team plays in a vacuum so feel free to talk all you want about the Millikin defense, but there is certainly something to the numbers.

There is no question in my mind that the Olivet win was the bigger upset even if the on paper results point to the Millikin win.  I'm just saying.

Hey, look, Millikin got the upset win and no one wants to add an asterisk to the game, but if we are going to be honest about the magnitude of the win, the conversation thus far has been lacking.

Third, [insert off color joke about swallowed whistles here].

[USee]

This conversation has certainly run its course, but hey...

First, I am not convinced that most fans of [insert CCIW team here] who are the level of fandom to feel compelled to come here and comment on games are going to be unbiased in their opinions on CCIW games with non-conference opponents.

As the old adage on tribalism goes, me against my brother; me and my brother against my cousin; me and my brother and my cousin against my neighbor.

This goes for fans of all teams of course.

Second, the question of whether or not the Millikin win was an upset starts with the question of whether or not Washington University is a Top 10 team without two of its most important senior-starters.  In my mind, the answer is most certainly not.  I am not sure if they are a Top 25 team at this point in the season with their SOS.

And I am pumped about the guys who will take over next season, but take the starting point guard and starting center off any Top 25 team and what do you have?  Do this with Emory and you do not have a Top 10 team for sure.

I'll say too that the stats from the missing players were mentioned but as we all know, the player is more than the stat sheet.  Definitely the case with the point guard who is the co-heart and soul of the team and one of the best three-point shooters in the league.

It was mentioned that Washington University appeared to be crisp in their offense but this is a team that had the second best offense in the league against the second best strength of schedule.  They finished 19 points under the season average. 

No team plays in a vacuum so feel free to talk all you want about the Millikin defense, but there is certainly something to the numbers.

There is no question in my mind that the Olivet win was the bigger upset even if the on paper results point to the Millikin win.  I'm just saying.

Hey, look, Millikin got the upset win and no one wants to add an asterisk to the game, but if we are going to be honest about the magnitude of the win, the conversation thus far has been lacking.

Third, [insert off color joke about swallowed whistles here].

Well you are right about one thing, WashU is not a top 10 team, certainly not without 2 starters. In fact, Massey has them at #34. Problem is Millikin is #223. WashU is, was, and would be a 12-14 pt favorite against Millikin and no spin you provide is going to change that. It's an upset. How big of one depends on the individual spin or perspective.

[USee]

In case anyone was wondering

Massey's ratings:
Carthage #63
Olivet #214

[Titan Q]

IWU hosts Millikin Saturday. The Titans and Big Blue have played 230 times. The 1st game was in IWU's 1st season of basketball (1909-10) and the schools have played every season since except '43-44 and '44-45.

This is one of the oldest rivalries in college basketball.

I'm trying to identify where the IWU/Millikin 230 games played total stacks up in Division III.  Just a quick check of a few:
* Wabash vs DePauw = 214
* Hope vs Kalamazoo = 211
* Calvin vs Hope = 201
* Wooster vs Kenyon = 180

Wondering about St. John's vs St. Thomas...and Amherst vs Williams.  And others.

If anyone locates any relevant totals, please post here.  Thanks.