MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[augie77]

I'm happy with Augustana's three selections, but must comment that all conference teams really should be based on a player's performance--not based on some arbitrary guideline of how many players each team is "entitled" to based on their league standing.

[Gregory Sager]

The Week 3 men's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-third

The data sheets aren't up to date (the Central, at least, is still from 2/16). But they're really holding firm to that head to head BenU-NCC game, aren't they?

(I know the Eagles have better vRRO results beyond just that one game, but still.)

I'll have to check ... but that is probably on NCAA's side. They will be there eventually even if it requires us bugging them.

Let the bugging begin.
Benedictine is supposedly 3rd while NCC IS 4th.
BU's SOS is .506 while NCC's is .538
BU's winning % is .080 while NCC's is .084 against much stiffer competition.
Yes, BU beat NCC early in the season

Everything in this quote above is completely relevant.

with a major player who is no longer on BU's roster while NCC revamped it's rotation which subsequently moved forward to post a W in 17 of it's last 18 games.

Everything in this quote above is completely irrelevant.

Yes, everything is a fraud, and a hoax. Thank you Mr. President
By the way, BU lost to Hope, MSOE, Wis Lutheran, Concordia-Chicago, and Concordia, Wis. But that's probably not relevant in the scope of things either. 😏

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't compare me to Trump. I don't appreciate either of those things. I never said that what you posted was "a fraud, and a hoax." I said that it was completely irrelevant, which is something else entirely.

Don't agree? Then please show us where in the 2019-20 NCAA Division III Basketball Pre-Championship Manual it lists major players no longer being on a roster, rotation revamping either good or bad, or winning streaks as being among either the primary ranking criteria or the secondary ranking criteria.

[Hightops]

I'm happy with Augustana's three selections, but must comment that all conference teams really should be based on a player's performance--not based on some arbitrary guideline of how many players each team is "entitled" to based on their league standing.

Agree 100%!!

[Hightops]

Again, I sense Kedrowski's absence is due in large part, to Carthage's place in the final conference standings. 🤔
The 6th place team isn't getting more than one representative, and that was always going to be Baltimore.

If you pull up this years stats, they're pretty comparable but I'd still give the edge to Kedrowski. He certainly seemed to be the better teammate this year.

[AndOne]

I'm happy with Augustana's three selections, but must comment that all conference teams really should be based on a player's performance--not based on some arbitrary guideline of how many players each team is "entitled" to based on their league standing.

You are, of course, 100% correct, 77.
However, as an experienced follower of the conference I'm sure you know that voting for All Conference has pretty often aligned with how the teams finish in the standings. 

[sncdangler]

The Week 3 men's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-third

The data sheets aren't up to date (the Central, at least, is still from 2/16). But they're really holding firm to that head to head BenU-NCC game, aren't they?

(I know the Eagles have better vRRO results beyond just that one game, but still.)

I'll have to check ... but that is probably on NCAA's side. They will be there eventually even if it requires us bugging them.

Let the bugging begin.
Benedictine is supposedly 3rd while NCC IS 4th.
BU's SOS is .506 while NCC's is .538
BU's winning % is .080 while NCC's is .084 against much stiffer competition.
Yes, BU beat NCC early in the season

Everything in this quote above is completely relevant.

with a major player who is no longer on BU's roster while NCC revamped it's rotation which subsequently moved forward to post a W in 17 of it's last 18 games.

Everything in this quote above is completely irrelevant.

Yes, everything is a fraud, and a hoax. Thank you Mr. President
By the way, BU lost to Hope, MSOE, Wis Lutheran, Concordia-Chicago, and Concordia, Wis. But that's probably not relevant in the scope of things either. 😏

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't compare me to Trump. I don't appreciate either of those things. I never said that what you posted was "a fraud, and a hoax." I said that it was completely irrelevant, which is something else entirely.

Don't agree? Then please show us where in the 2019-20 NCAA Division III Basketball Pre-Championship Manual it lists major players no longer being on a roster, rotation revamping either good or bad, or winning streaks as being among either the primary ranking criteria or the secondary ranking criteria.

He can't, Greg. This is the same poster a couple weeks ago who when challenged about the "eye test" being a criteria and getting pilloried by other posters just ran and hid for a few days. He is also conveniently ignoring Benedictine's other wins over St. Norbert and LeTourneau to currently offset its SOS. Benedictine won the games it needed to win.

The real test for the Midwest committee will be if Benedictine does not win the NACC AQ. In that case I can't see the committee keeping Benedictine that high and blocking every other potential Pool C entrant in the region with its low SOS, unless the national committee is putting THAT big of a premium on head-to-head results. Which to this point it appears they are.

I can't argue one bit over the current Midwest Region rankings, even as a St. Norbert fan whose team has won 22 games. SNC should have beaten Benedictine or Elmhurst if it wanted to be ranked higher. Thankfully it beat Oshkosh and Eau Claire.

[AndOne]

The Week 3 men's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-third

The data sheets aren't up to date (the Central, at least, is still from 2/16). But they're really holding firm to that head to head BenU-NCC game, aren't they?

(I know the Eagles have better vRRO results beyond just that one game, but still.)

I'll have to check ... but that is probably on NCAA's side. They will be there eventually even if it requires us bugging them.

Let the bugging begin.
Benedictine is supposedly 3rd while NCC IS 4th.
BU's SOS is .506 while NCC's is .538
BU's winning % is .080 while NCC's is .084 against much stiffer competition.
Yes, BU beat NCC early in the season

Everything in this quote above is completely relevant.

with a major player who is no longer on BU's roster while NCC revamped it's rotation which subsequently moved forward to post a W in 17 of it's last 18 games.

Everything in this quote above is completely irrelevant.

Yes, everything is a fraud, and a hoax. Thank you Mr. President
By the way, BU lost to Hope, MSOE, Wis Lutheran, Concordia-Chicago, and Concordia, Wis. But that's probably not relevant in the scope of things either. 😏

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't compare me to Trump. I don't appreciate either of those things. I never said that what you posted was "a fraud, and a hoax." I said that it was completely irrelevant, which is something else entirely.

Don't agree? Then please show us where in the 2019-20 NCAA Division III Basketball Pre-Championship Manual it lists major players no longer being on a roster, rotation revamping either good or bad, or winning streaks as being among either the primary ranking criteria or the secondary ranking criteria.

Well, to me, when you refer to something as irrelevant that is basically being dismissive of my opinion on the subject as if saying my thoughts/feelings are no better than a fraud or a hoax. When you use the word "irrelevant," it suggests you feel that the other person's ideas are so ludicrous that he isn't even entitled to express them.

When BU and NC played early in the season, the makeup and rotation of both teams was different. And, as far as how the teams currently comparatively rank, I think its entirely relevant. BU's 2nd leading scorer and a player largely responsible for their win isn't even on the roster any longer. Conversely, a player who is now starting and is a big part of NCC's success since he has been, played less than a minute in that contest.
BU has lost 5 games to teams that would all be second division dwellers in the CCIW. Meanwhile, NCC has gone through the season and emerged with a 14-2 conference record against far tougher competition than is found in the NACC.
Sure BU beat NC, but do you seriously think if they played X number of times now, that NCC (not to mention several other CCIW teams) wouldn't win a majority of the games?
NCC has a better SOS and Winning Percentage, again, in a superior conference. Those certainly aren't all the considerations involved in rankings within the region, but there no doubt those facts are relevant as to how the teams currently compare. To label them as "irrelevant" is misguided at best, and is frankly insulting.

[AndOne]

The Week 3 men's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-third

The data sheets aren't up to date (the Central, at least, is still from 2/16). But they're really holding firm to that head to head BenU-NCC game, aren't they?

(I know the Eagles have better vRRO results beyond just that one game, but still.)

I'll have to check ... but that is probably on NCAA's side. They will be there eventually even if it requires us bugging them.

Let the bugging begin.
Benedictine is supposedly 3rd while NCC IS 4th.
BU's SOS is .506 while NCC's is .538
BU's winning % is .080 while NCC's is .084 against much stiffer competition.
Yes, BU beat NCC early in the season

Everything in this quote above is completely relevant.

with a major player who is no longer on BU's roster while NCC revamped it's rotation which subsequently moved forward to post a W in 17 of it's last 18 games.

Everything in this quote above is completely irrelevant.

Yes, everything is a fraud, and a hoax. Thank you Mr. President
By the way, BU lost to Hope, MSOE, Wis Lutheran, Concordia-Chicago, and Concordia, Wis. But that's probably not relevant in the scope of things either. 😏

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't compare me to Trump. I don't appreciate either of those things. I never said that what you posted was "a fraud, and a hoax." I said that it was completely irrelevant, which is something else entirely.

Don't agree? Then please show us where in the 2019-20 NCAA Division III Basketball Pre-Championship Manual it lists major players no longer being on a roster, rotation revamping either good or bad, or winning streaks as being among either the primary ranking criteria or the secondary ranking criteria.

He can't, Greg. This is the same poster a couple weeks ago who when challenged about the "eye test" being a criteria and getting pilloried by other posters just ran and hid for a few days. He is also conveniently ignoring Benedictine's other wins over St. Norbert and LeTourneau to currently offset its SOS. Benedictine won the games it needed to win.

The real test for the Midwest committee will be if Benedictine does not win the NACC AQ. In that case I can't see the committee keeping Benedictine that high and blocking every other potential Pool C entrant in the region with its low SOS, unless the national committee is putting THAT big of a premium on head-to-head results. Which to this point it appears they are.

I can't argue one bit over the current Midwest Region rankings, even as a St. Norbert fan whose team has won 22 games. SNC should have beaten Benedictine or Elmhurst if it wanted to be ranked higher. Thankfully it beat Oshkosh and Eau Claire.

Ran and hid? Sorry Dangler, but I do have a few other things going on in my life besides constantly living on here. Anyone who knows me knows I historically have not been one to hide from a fight. But sometimes you just get enough of harping on things for awhile.

Also, if you really want to address the question of hiding, I think a poster who has made a total of 111 posts in NINE years can be considered an authority on the subject! 

[bbfan44]

If I used the tool correctly...Massey says there's a 79% chance that NC would beat BenU today...fwiw.

[sncdangler]

The Week 3 men's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-third

The data sheets aren't up to date (the Central, at least, is still from 2/16). But they're really holding firm to that head to head BenU-NCC game, aren't they?

(I know the Eagles have better vRRO results beyond just that one game, but still.)

I'll have to check ... but that is probably on NCAA's side. They will be there eventually even if it requires us bugging them.

Let the bugging begin.
Benedictine is supposedly 3rd while NCC IS 4th.
BU's SOS is .506 while NCC's is .538
BU's winning % is .080 while NCC's is .084 against much stiffer competition.
Yes, BU beat NCC early in the season

Everything in this quote above is completely relevant.

with a major player who is no longer on BU's roster while NCC revamped it's rotation which subsequently moved forward to post a W in 17 of it's last 18 games.

Everything in this quote above is completely irrelevant.

Yes, everything is a fraud, and a hoax. Thank you Mr. President
By the way, BU lost to Hope, MSOE, Wis Lutheran, Concordia-Chicago, and Concordia, Wis. But that's probably not relevant in the scope of things either. 😏

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't compare me to Trump. I don't appreciate either of those things. I never said that what you posted was "a fraud, and a hoax." I said that it was completely irrelevant, which is something else entirely.

Don't agree? Then please show us where in the 2019-20 NCAA Division III Basketball Pre-Championship Manual it lists major players no longer being on a roster, rotation revamping either good or bad, or winning streaks as being among either the primary ranking criteria or the secondary ranking criteria.

He can't, Greg. This is the same poster a couple weeks ago who when challenged about the "eye test" being a criteria and getting pilloried by other posters just ran and hid for a few days. He is also conveniently ignoring Benedictine's other wins over St. Norbert and LeTourneau to currently offset its SOS. Benedictine won the games it needed to win.

The real test for the Midwest committee will be if Benedictine does not win the NACC AQ. In that case I can't see the committee keeping Benedictine that high and blocking every other potential Pool C entrant in the region with its low SOS, unless the national committee is putting THAT big of a premium on head-to-head results. Which to this point it appears they are.

I can't argue one bit over the current Midwest Region rankings, even as a St. Norbert fan whose team has won 22 games. SNC should have beaten Benedictine or Elmhurst if it wanted to be ranked higher. Thankfully it beat Oshkosh and Eau Claire.

Ran and hid? Sorry Dangler, but I do have a few other things going on in my life besides constantly living on here. Anyone who knows me knows I historically have not been one to hide from a fight. But sometimes you just get enough of harping on things for awhile.

Also, if you really want to address the question of hiding, I think a poster who has made a total of 111 posts in NINE years can be considered an authority on the subject! 

Ah, so the amount of posts in here is what makes an expert? And here I thought my low amount of posts just means I have MANY other things going on in my life besides constantly living on here.  Again, quit while you're behind.

"You don't know when to speak and when to shut up. That makes you a fool!" - Rupert Anderson, "Mississippi Burning"

[Viking Mike]

Wow.... still can't believe that a 18-7 Augustana team that finished 2nd in one of the premier conferences in Division 3 is NOT in the regional rankings!!!

Augie had the 3rd toughest schedule in Div 3 (.570 SOS)

The bad news is that Augie has played 6 teams this year that are now regionally ranked (a total of 8 games) and only won 2. (Elmhurst and Loras)
                                  7 pt loss to Oshkosh
                                  2 pt loss @Wash U
                                  2 pt loss @ Lacrosse
                                  1 pt loss @ North Central

The Vikings, unfortunately, needed 1 more quality win along the way to be ranked.

The RAC and NCAA are really looking at head to head and common opponents among everything else to delineate all these teams in the Central.   SOS does not seem to be as important.
Everything has lined up for the committee as there is a nice pecking order to line everyone up.  No conflicting results like Team A beat B, and B beat C, but C beat A

Apparently teams that have better regional win % and a token win or 2 against elite teams are more favorable than teams who may not have a shiny winning %, but still play a tough schedule in one of the elite conferences in division 3.

Is a 20-5 Benedictine team really better than a 18-7 Augie team?  Ben Univ beat regionally ranked NC, St Norbert, and LaTourneau (#4 in South this week).  This Latouneau team beat Millikin by 2 pts the night after losing to Ben U. (?)

I understand Ben U beat North Central and NC beat Augie x 2, but can you deduce that Ben U is better than Augie from this?  North Central shot 28% from field (18% from 3) in their loss to Ben Univ in Nov.  I think the Cardinals had a tough shooting night.  I think many would pick NC to beat Ben U on most nights.

St Norbert beat Oshkosh early in the year, but has no other quality wins with a SOS .506...... they are 1-2 against reg ranked teams.  Does this one game really carry so much weight that it vaults them to a #6 ranking?

Among the other regions, there are 13 regionally ranked teams with more losses than Augie and 19 with as many losses (7) that are sitting a lot better as far as NCAA selection goes.  Why do some of these teams come to the table prior to Augustana?  Even though though there is no rule that says so many teams have to come from each regional, why is it assumed that if your not in the top 6, you won't be selected?

An example of this would be Loras.  Loras is 17-8 and ranked #5 in the West.  Augie beat Loras by almost 30pts earlier in the year.  Loras in theory would come to the table much sooner than Augustana.  (I am presuming Augie is ranked #9 since Eau Claire lost.)  How can you consider Loras over Augie when the Vikings are buried in the Central? 

Which leads me to my final point..... Realign the regions!

The Central has too many great programs/teams within the CCIW and WIAC.  Our region would look a lot like the other regional rankings if it only contained 1 power conference in it.
Might look something like this...........................

1) Wash U
2) North Central
3) Elmhurst
4) Augustana
5) Illinois Wesleyan
6) Ben Univ
7) St Norbert
8) Wheaton or other deserving team (don't have current NCAA data)

The message here is ..... if you are in a weaker conference, play a tough nonconf schedule to increase your SOS.  Otherwise, you must win your conference automatic bid!


Hoping the Vikings can put it all together this week and win the automatic bid to the NCAA.  This regional ranking stuff is exhausting!!! 

[Gregory Sager]

The Week 3 men's regional rankings are out: https://www.d3hoops.com/notables/2020/02/men-regional-rankings-third

The data sheets aren't up to date (the Central, at least, is still from 2/16). But they're really holding firm to that head to head BenU-NCC game, aren't they?

(I know the Eagles have better vRRO results beyond just that one game, but still.)

I'll have to check ... but that is probably on NCAA's side. They will be there eventually even if it requires us bugging them.

Let the bugging begin.
Benedictine is supposedly 3rd while NCC IS 4th.
BU's SOS is .506 while NCC's is .538
BU's winning % is .080 while NCC's is .084 against much stiffer competition.
Yes, BU beat NCC early in the season

Everything in this quote above is completely relevant.

with a major player who is no longer on BU's roster while NCC revamped it's rotation which subsequently moved forward to post a W in 17 of it's last 18 games.

Everything in this quote above is completely irrelevant.

Yes, everything is a fraud, and a hoax. Thank you Mr. President
By the way, BU lost to Hope, MSOE, Wis Lutheran, Concordia-Chicago, and Concordia, Wis. But that's probably not relevant in the scope of things either. 😏

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't compare me to Trump. I don't appreciate either of those things. I never said that what you posted was "a fraud, and a hoax." I said that it was completely irrelevant, which is something else entirely.

Don't agree? Then please show us where in the 2019-20 NCAA Division III Basketball Pre-Championship Manual it lists major players no longer being on a roster, rotation revamping either good or bad, or winning streaks as being among either the primary ranking criteria or the secondary ranking criteria.

Well, to me, when you refer to something as irrelevant that is basically being dismissive of my opinion on the subject as if saying my thoughts/feelings are no better than a fraud or a hoax. When you use the word "irrelevant," it suggests you feel that the other person's ideas are so ludicrous that he isn't even entitled to express them.

Well, that idiosyncratic take on the word "irrelevant" is on you, Mark, not me. There was nothing at all personal in my remark that your bit about Boatwright, Helwig and the NCC rotation, NCC's winning streak was irrelevant, any more than it was personal when I said that the preceding stuff was relevant. I'm simply stating facts, objectively and dispassionately.

I said that the quoted information was irrelevant -- which it is -- not that you are irrelevant. You yourself are always relevant to this board, Mark. Sometimes certain people may wish it were not so, which is an aspect of your online persona that I suspect you and I have in common.

When BU and NC played early in the season, the makeup and rotation of both teams was different. And, as far as how the teams currently comparatively rank, I think its entirely relevant. BU's 2nd leading scorer and a player largely responsible for their win isn't even on the roster any longer. Conversely, a player who is now starting and is a big part of NCC's success since he has been, played less than a minute in that contest.
BU has lost 5 games to teams that would all be second division dwellers in the CCIW. Meanwhile, NCC has gone through the season and emerged with a 14-2 conference record against far tougher competition than is found in the NACC.
Sure BU beat NC, but do you seriously think if they played X number of times now, that NCC (not to mention several other CCIW teams) wouldn't win a majority of the games?

Again, none of this matters, Mark, no matter how much you may wish otherwise. The Central Region committee is tasked with ranking teams within the region based upon the primary and secondary criteria found on pages 16 and 17 of the Manual, and nothing else. Roster composition, rotations, winning streaks, losing streaks -- none of that stuff is listed among the criteria. It isn't germane to the subject at hand, which is ranking the teams within the Central Region. The committee will ignore the stuff that you keep insisting is important.  Make book on it. It will also be ignored by the national committee on Selection Day. All that they care about is:

* Won-lost percentage against D3 opponents;
* D3 head-to-head competition;
* Results vs. common D3 opponents
* Results vs. ranked D3 teams as established by the final ranking and the ranking preceding the final ranking (including conference tournament results); and
* Bylaws nullifications

... and the secondary criteria, which is:

* Non-D3 winning percentage;
* Results vs. common non-D3 opponents; and
* D3 non-conference strength of schedule

These are the only things that matter, Mark. In the eyes of both the regional and national committees, everything else that you've named is irrelevant. I'm sorry that you don't like that word, but it is the word that perfectly describes the situation.

NCC has a better SOS and Winning Percentage, again, in a superior conference.

The SoS and W% are, of course, relevant, because they're among the primary criteria. The relative strength of the CCIW as compared to the NACC is irrelevant, as conference strength is not among the criteria.

Those certainly aren't all the considerations involved in rankings within the region, but there no doubt those facts are relevant as to how the teams currently compare.

In actual basketball terms, yes, of course. Absolutely. Benedictine and North Central are completely different teams now. Nobody's ever disputed that. What is under dispute here is the relevance of that fact to their current regional rankings. And what I'm telling you is that it isn't relevant. It's not in the Manual. There's nothing in the criteria about whether Team A is better right now than Team B in actual basketball terms. It's all about cold, hard numbers and posted game results (and keep in mind that games played on November 26 matter just as much as games played this weekend).

To label them as "irrelevant" is misguided at best, and is frankly insulting.

Again, you're being oversensitive. All I've done is point out the facts of the situation as to what matters to the regional committee and what doesn't.

[AndOne]

Dangler,

Someone could have a million posts and not be an expert. I think even you can realize that's not what I was saying or even implying. As far as your rarely posting, my take is that its because you seldom have anything worthwhile to say. Enjoy your nap.

[kenoshamark]

Disappointed that Kedrowski didn't get selected...I get the politics, rationale, etc that goes into the selections, but he really had a solid year.  Played and started every game this year - only one of the team to do this.  When I saw him early this year, you could tell he really had prepared himself physically to have an excellent year.   

The team fell short of its goals and that is frustrating too...some of that might be due to the drama that took place with Baltimore missing some games and not playing much in a couple others.  Baltimore had the better conference stats so hard to make a case there, but if you looked at who was the most consistent player this year, it was Kedrowski. 

Baltimore got screwed last year so maybe this is redemption, but if I had a choice, and it was only one player that could be picked this year, I would have selected Kedrowski. 

Just my take on things...lets see how he plays tonight.   Hope he has a big game!

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Just a reminder ... while the Central Regional Advisory Committee is tasked with doing a lot of the work when it comes to the rankings, ultimately it is the National Committee that puts these out. The National Committee makes sure the RACs use the tools appropriately or correctly (depending on your vantage point).

I only bring this up because having spoken to several RAC members today, I have come under the impression that several RACs had some discrepancies in their voting (individual votes, not entire RACs) which meant the national committee had a very long call making some adjustments. And with some comments about how the Central RAC does it's job ... I just wanted to be clear.

And to followed up on what Sager has tried to say multiple times ... if an argument for where a team is regional ranked or even selected and bracketed into the tournament goes outside the primary and secondary criteria ... it basically is irrelevant. It isn't worth trying to argue about injuries, rotations, winning streaks, or whatever ... because it doesn't matter.