MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Under Gary Smith who ran the System on the west coast, they had a smattering of success. And as I understand it, Smith ran a similar style System as Grinnell ran though I can't remember who started what first.

Well, Redlands did finish second in the SCIAC in Smith's final year. But, other than that, as you can see by the year-to-year results, he didn't have all that much success with the System in terms of winning.

Nevertheless, I still would've loved to have seen the best player he had during that era, Amir Mazarei, play. From what was posted about Mazarei by those who frequent d3boards.com who saw him play, it sounded like he was really something.

Smith learned the System from Arseneault the Elder by spending a year as the latter's assistant coach at Grinnell. Smith had long been a defensive-pressure specialist among coaching gurus; Arseneault's System gave him the other half of the equation. I think it's reasonable to credit the senior Arseneault with inventing the System. However, I'll defer to d3hoops.com's resident System expert Ryan, who has intensively researched this topic (including interviewing many of the coaches involved), if he demurs regarding the identity of the System's Thomas Edison.

Smith talks about his debt to Arseneault here: http://masseybasketball.blogspot.com/2010/11/gary-smith-defensive-coach-whose-team.html

Here's a fun read from a few years back about how Smith took the System to the high-school level in California after retiring from college coaching: https://www.davisenterprise.com/sports/look-quick-davis-basketball-becomes-a-blue-streak/

It mentions Arseneault and OliNaz's Porter, as well as uptempo basketball's éminence grise, Paul Westhead.

But again, the goals of those who utilize "The System" are different depending on the coach and the program. Muhlenberg women ran it for a few years, but if you talk to their coach he will admit he didn't have the players nor was he getting the players so he wanted something fun just tp keep everyone involved. That changed when recruiting started to become more successful and he got, in particular, one enormous talent ... he went back to more "normal" type systems and continues to this day.

Yep, and it's always good to be reminded that, for all of the copycat aspect of college coaching, D3 is not a one-size-fits-all situation athletically because its member schools have vastly different operating parameters and institutional missions.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Yeah - technically "The System" starts with Paul Westfeld and Loyola Marymount. The difference, as many can probably surmise, was that group especially with Hank Gathers got into incredible physical shape including cardiovascular-wise so they didn't have to sub and they could run teams into the ground. That was their entire game plan.

The problem with that is you can't always get the right mix of players to do that kind of thing without a lot of subbing and the "genius" of The System is the subbing pattern so that you can keep up the pace and intensity (for those who don't realize or remember, the full-court defense isn't a cake walk until the opposing offense breaks half court and then Greenville, Grinnell, whomever wants them to score quickly to get the ball back) when in reality you probably don't have 7-8 guys who are in phenomenal shape.

That is where The System takes a turn from what Westfeld created - along with the three point shot becoming more of a weapon as the game evolved with three point shooting in general.

I do wonder if The System needs to evolve again (maybe Arsenault, Jr. is doing so) or will dissolve with the emphasis and statistical understanding of the three point shot changing the game. I have no idea if it will or won't, but it has been on my mind in the last year or two.

I do remember Mazarei, but you couldn't see games as much ... sadly. When did he play? I am curious if he overlapped my brother at Redlands. Maybe I could get insight that way.

Edit: Answered my own question with some quick research. If the two overlapped it was barely. I'll still ask. Not sure I'll get an answer...

I did forget Smith assisted under Arseneault. That's for that reminder.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Does anyone here have a winning/losing percentage for the teams that use the "system?"   It would be interesting to know if it is, in fact, successful . . . or just a funny experiment, a kind of fanciful and bizarre outlier. 

I surely don't ever claim "Hall of Fame" status here, so will leave all the details and knowledge of the "system" and its recent history to all of you.  I only dip in and out of the board randomly and infrequently now.

Happy holidays to all.  Let's hope somehow we have a season starting in January, though it looks extremely unlikely to me.

IWU'70

On D3hoops.com it's very easy to find year-by-year W/L records, and position in conf standings, for Grinnell and Greenville.

Greenville finished 2nd in the SLIAC last year. 

Grinnell finished 4th in the MWC.

Closer to home, since the CCIW women's basketball board is the other board that iwu70 follows, is the fact that North Central's women's basketball team used the Arseneault System under former head coach Michelle Roof from the 2012-13 season thru the final season of her NCC tenure in 2017-18.

Those were the days when Lucas's voice would be worn out by constantly making "THREEEEEE!" calls over the P.A. in the airplane hangar on a Saturday night before the men's game had even started.

Really, on the women's side of things, it should be known as the Bunky Harkleroad system.  He's currently at Sacramento State, but he adapted the System for women at Berea (pre-d3 days) and was also at Glenville State in WV.  Both men's and women's coaches I've talk to credit him with real adaptations that make the System more than just a tweak.

I also failed to mention that David Arseneault Jr, now the coach at Grinnell is really not running the System anymore.  They've adapted some of the principles and combined NBA analytics work, which makes their current system a lot more like the Houston Rockets of recent years - maximizing layups and threes and far more worried about spacing.  I doubt he'd ever say they're not doing what made them famous, but it's really not functioning on the same principles anymore.  Greenville's as close to what the System was designed to be as you'll find anywhere.

Point(s) taken ... although I suspect that you really just wanted to post the name "Bunky Harkleroad."

Any chance I get.  I've taken to yelling "Bunky Harkleroad" anytime I'm surprised or upset by something.  It's just fun to say.

[Pat Coleman]

Here's our 2003 piece on The System, written by Mark Simon in Around the Nation:
https://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/2003-04/grinnell-system-begins-to-take-hold

And here is Ryan's 2017 piece on The System in ATN:
https://www.d3hoops.com/columns/around-the-nation/2016-17/system-here-to-stay

[GU1999]

I'll further hedge it now by saying that George Barber may simply be better at recruiting for the System than either of the two Arseneaults, or Gary Smith, or Michelle Roof, or Doug Porter. I look at the players that he's bringing into this tiny and relatively unknown school in a rural village an hour outside of St. Louis -- players from all across the country, particularly the southeastern states and California -- and I'm impressed not only by his results but by how he's managed to go about getting them.

I certainly will agree that Dr. Barber is the catalyst that makes it go.  He is lucky to have a top tier assistant in Stephen Groves to help organize the madness of a roster of 35+ and two teams.  Both are wonderful men who have  reservoirs of energy that are quite impressive.  Without George and Stephen, I am not sure that the style or success keeps going, but I am optimistic it will.  But I am also optimistic that is not part of the conversation for another decade plus.   Now back to the SLIAC board I go. 

[tomt4525]

Prairie Central HS's 6'3" G, Trey Bazzell, committed to Illinois Wesleyan today.

[Titan Q]

Prairie Central HS's 6'3" G, Trey Bazzell, committed to Illinois Wesleyan today.

Ron Rose and the Titans have landed Trey Bazzell, a 6-3 PG/SG from Prairie Central HS.

As a junior last season averaged 20 pts, 7 reb, 2 assists, 2 steals; named IBCA all-state, 1st Team Pantagraph All Area, and Champaign News-Gazette All-Area.

https://www.ncsasports.org/mens-basketball-recruiting/illinois/fairbury/prairie-central-high-school/trey--bazzell

https://www.pantagraph.com/sports/high-school/basketball/girls/here-is-the-pantagraph-all-area-boys-basketball-team/article_56ee3f3e-fa4a-5f65-94d2-b2f5e611bbe3.html

https://www.news-gazette.com/sports/prep-sports/boys-basketball/the-2020-news-gazette-all-area-boys-basketball-team-meet-the-first-team/article_6afccd06-d1ea-5b36-832e-71819a6002ba.html

[PauldingLightUP]

Prairie Central HS's 6'3" G, Trey Bazzell, committed to Illinois Wesleyan today.

Ron Rose and the Titans have landed Trey Bazzell, a 6-3 PG/SG from Prairie Central HS.

As a junior last season averaged 20 pts, 7 reb, 2 assists, 2 steals; named IBCA all-state, 1st Team Pantagraph All Area, and Champaign News-Gazette All-Area.

Titan Q, what schools was he drawing interest from?

[tomt4525]

Prairie Central HS's 6'3" G, Trey Bazzell, committed to Illinois Wesleyan today.

Ron Rose and the Titans have landed Trey Bazzell, a 6-3 PG/SG from Prairie Central HS.

As a junior last season averaged 20 pts, 7 reb, 2 assists, 2 steals; named IBCA all-state, 1st Team Pantagraph All Area, and Champaign News-Gazette All-Area.

Titan Q, what schools was he drawing interest from?

Elmhurst, Loras, Augustana and Carthage atleast...along with IWU.

[Titan Q]

Prairie Central HS's 6'3" G, Trey Bazzell, committed to Illinois Wesleyan today.

Ron Rose and the Titans have landed Trey Bazzell, a 6-3 PG/SG from Prairie Central HS.

As a junior last season averaged 20 pts, 7 reb, 2 assists, 2 steals; named IBCA all-state, 1st Team Pantagraph All Area, and Champaign News-Gazette All-Area.

Titan Q, what schools was he drawing interest from?

Elmhurst, Loras, Augustana and Carthage atleast...along with IWU.

As well as an almost full scholarship to NAIA Olivet Nazarene.

[Ultimate Titan Fan]

Prairie Central HS's 6'3" G, Trey Bazzell, committed to Illinois Wesleyan today.

Ron Rose and the Titans have landed Trey Bazzell, a 6-3 PG/SG from Prairie Central HS.

As a junior last season averaged 20 pts, 7 reb, 2 assists, 2 steals; named IBCA all-state, 1st Team Pantagraph All Area, and Champaign News-Gazette All-Area.

Titan Q, what schools was he drawing interest from?

Elmhurst, Loras, Augustana and Carthage atleast...along with IWU.

As well as an almost full scholarship to NAIA Olivet Nazarene.

I heard Judson too. NAIA i believe.

[iwu70]

Thanks for all the information and background on "The System" at various schools and at various time periods.

IWU'70

[Titan Q]

Here is the status of CCIW MBB/WBB as I understand it...

1) The MBB and WBB coaches have developed a conference-only schedule model.
  * 12 games.
  * Each team plays 2 games per week across 3 possible game nights - Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday.
  * MBB and WBB would basically have the same schedule - location just flipped.  (IWU men at Augie; IWU women host Augie.)
  * I believe the weekend of Jan. 22 is still the planned start date, but I am not 100% sure about that.

2) The schedule goes to the Athletic Directors early this week for review and approval. 
  * It's expected to be approved.  I think the coaches would be very surprised if it's rejected.

3) Then everything goes the the university Presidents later this week.  That's where things become a lot less certain. 
  * This past week, the WIAC Chancellors approved the model developed by the WIAC coaches and ADs.
  * Whether the CCIW Presidents see things the same way...who knows.
  * Obviously the Presidents will make a decision that factors in a lot more than sports.
  * Important to keep in mind the Presidents can approve this...and it still fall apart before or during the season for a variety of reasons.


If the plan is approved, I'd expect an announcement very similar to the WIAC's -- https://wiacsports.com/news/2020/12/11/general-wiac-winter-sports-return-to-play-update.aspx.

The ability to meet testing guidelines is probably the most important component of the plan and making this work.

I believe I heard that a single positive test within a program would shut that team down for a week.  It wouldn't be like the NFL where the positive players stays home and the rest of the team plays.

There is an assumption there will be positives, and I believe a plan to be flexible with the schedule based on how things play out in this regard.  Teams could end up playing each other more or less than as laid out in the original schedule.

I'm sure I am off on parts of this, but overall I'm confident this is very close to what's going on.

It going to be an interesting week in the CCIW.

[WUPHF]

I'm sure I am off on parts of this, but overall I'm confident this is very close to what's going on.

Dave McHugh will be arriving in 3-2-1 to let you know all the ways in which you are off... LOL

[Titan Q]

I'm sure I am off on parts of this, but overall I'm confident this is very close to what's going on.

Dave McHugh will be arriving in 3-2-1 to let you know all the ways in which you are off... LOL

I assume you are right.