MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Next Man Up]

North Central 2022-2023 schedule:

https://northcentralcardinals.com/sports/mens-basketball/schedule/2022-2023

Non cons: vs Dubuque, vs Whitman, at Aurora, at Whitewater, vs Benedictine, at Platteville, at Hope, vs Edgewood, at Marian

Pretty good since when new head coach Anthony Figueroa came aboard on June 1st only 3 (2 of which I assume were local yearly opponents Aurora & Benedictine) non con's had been scheduled. He, and his staff had to scramble to schedule the six remaining open slots in short order.

Doubtful that the last regular season game has ever been played outside the conference but that's a perfect example of the amount of scrambling that had to be done to build a fully allowable 25 game schedule.

Rather than during the Holidays as usual, the Carroll tournament to open the season will serve as the Cardinals "little trip" this season. Unfortunately, due to the late coaching switch, the Cardinals won't be going on what's always been referred to as their "big trip" during the Holiday break this year. The big trip was always a longer one, by plane rather than bus, to a warm weather destination. Only twice since 2004 (2009 + the Covid year of 2020) has this not been a regular happening. During that time frame the Cards have gone to Hawaii 3X, Las Vegas 3X, Orlando FL 3X, Los Angeles 2X, and Ft. Lauderdale, FL, Daytona Beach, FL, Miami, FL, Myrtle Beach, SC, and Austin, TX once each.

[Gregory Sager]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

[markerickson]

Former Proviso East and U of Illinois star, Dee Brown, will head the Lakers' MBB team this year. 

[mr_b]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

That'll result in a pretty hefty travel budget for conference play, with three members (Lake Superior, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan) in the U.P. and others (Davenport, Ferris, Grand Valley, Saginaw Valley, Wayne State) a good four- to five-hour bus ride.  Also a pretty competitive conference in a lot of sports, most notably football and hockey.

[Gregory Sager]

I was thinking the same thing. The Lakers inherited a pretty large panoply of extra sports when the school absorbed Robert Morris. They now compete in 35 sports, including such athletic esoterica as dance and performing arts. So I wonder if Roosevelt might be looking at drastically paring down to half that number of sponsored sports, or something even lower than that. (I don't know if the GLIAC has a minimum requirement; D2, last I checked, has a ten-sport minimum requirement.) After all, RU has had some financial difficulty lately, a problem exacerbated by the merger with Robert Morris, and paying out scholarships for dozens of sports (plus the travel costs you mentioned) seems like a recipe for disaster.

I'm not at all surprised to see Roosevelt leave the NAIA and the CCAC. But I am surprised that the school isn't looking to go D3 instead of D2 and applying for CCIW or NACC membership. It strikes me that D3 is a better fit for Roosevelt, both institutionally and athletically. The only real advantage to D2, as far as I can see, is the possibility of a higher athletic profile -- and, as North Parkers, you and I are both well aware that the limited attention local college sports gets in the Windy City is completely hogged by Illinois, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, and UIC, in that order. The Lakers won't get any more attention from Chicago sports media competing in D2 than they did in NAIA.

[WUPHF]

Illinois, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, and UIC, in that order. The Lakers won't get any more attention from Chicago sports media competing in D2 than they did in NAIA.

Is that still the order, given the success of Loyola athletics in the Valley and the move to the A-10?

[mr_b]

I'm not at all surprised to see Roosevelt leave the NAIA and the CCAC. But I am surprised that the school isn't looking to go D3 instead of D2 and applying for CCIW or NACC membership. It strikes me that D3 is a better fit for Roosevelt, both institutionally and athletically. The only real advantage to D2, as far as I can see, is the possibility of a higher athletic profile...

Another factor in going D2, of course, is the chance to dangle some athletic scholarship money in front of student-athletes, even though it would not approach the amounts necessary to draw away D1-caliber athletes.  But do you think Roosevelt would have considered D3, given the greater possibilities of joining a strong local conference? 

[Gregory Sager]

Illinois, Northwestern, DePaul, Loyola, and UIC, in that order. The Lakers won't get any more attention from Chicago sports media competing in D2 than they did in NAIA.

Is that still the order, given the success of Loyola athletics in the Valley and the move to the A-10?

It might be changing, but DePaul's still the top dog among the two D1 Catholic universities on the North Side as far as media attention goes. It's bigger, it's had more long-term basketball success, and  its location (Lincoln Park is a much more visible and well-heeled neighborhood than the Rogers Park community tucked away in the city's far northeastern corner that Loyola calls home) gives it some natural advantages over its Red Line rival.

Of course, the reality is that neither school enjoys the media coverage it used to have. Locally-based college basketball doesn't draw as much interest here as it used to. I think that some of that has to do with the fact that the yuppies that have inundated the lakeshore neighborhoods of the North Side typically represent different rooting constituencies as far as college sports are concerned; for every Chad or Trixie in Lake View, Wrigleyville, Lincoln Park, Old Town, etc., who roots for DePaul or Loyola, there's fifty of them who root for various Big Ten schools.

But the bigger issue is that neither school draws what it ought to draw for home men's basketball games, given their size, the fact that they're D1, and the fact that both schools tend to have locally-based alumni. Last season the DePaul vs. Loyola game filled only two-thirds of Wintrust Arena (which, at 10,000 seats, is not gigantic by D1 standards); DePaul vs. Marquette drew only 6,000 to Wintrust, and most of DePaul's home games filled only about a quarter of the seats. This is in spite of the fact that DePaul fans complained for years that playing home game in far-off Rosemont at the Allstate Arena kept attendance down. Now that the Blue Demons play in the city again (albeit downtown rather than on the Lincoln Park campus), they still don't draw well. Loyola is more fortunate in that regard in that Joseph J. Gentile Arena, which seats 4,400 fans, is right on campus. It's a great place to watch a basketball game. But the Ramblers don't fill it up; they had one sellout last year (Drake) and only topped the 4,000 mark two other times (Missouri State and Northern Iowa). When the Ramblers played Bradley and Illinois State, two in-state rivals that you'd think would fill up the Joe, the stands were only three-quarters full.

[Gregory Sager]

I'm not at all surprised to see Roosevelt leave the NAIA and the CCAC. But I am surprised that the school isn't looking to go D3 instead of D2 and applying for CCIW or NACC membership. It strikes me that D3 is a better fit for Roosevelt, both institutionally and athletically. The only real advantage to D2, as far as I can see, is the possibility of a higher athletic profile...

Another factor in going D2, of course, is the chance to dangle some athletic scholarship money in front of student-athletes, even though it would not approach the amounts necessary to draw away D1-caliber athletes.  But do you think Roosevelt would have considered D3, given the greater possibilities of joining a strong local conference?

It just seems like a smarter move, institutionally speaking. Whatever benefits accrue from going D2 rather than D3 just don't seem to be apparent in this case. On the other hand, if you were Roosevelt -- a school that has aspired to be a mover-and-shaker in Chicago academia, arts, politics, etc., for decades -- wouldn't you want to join an athletic level in which your regular competition would be the U of C and IIT, the two schools in your city that are where you want to be in terms of institutional profile? What sort of institutional goal could be gained from developing rivalries with lower-tier Michigan public schools such as Ferris State and Saginaw Valley State? Even the one GLIAC school that has a name that carries some weight, Purdue Northwest, is a branch campus that almost exclusively serves commuters and isn't going to be confused with the West Lafayette Boilermaker mothership in anybody's mind.

Frankly, I think it made more sense for Benedictine to go D2 than it does for Roosevelt ... and I thought that Benedictine's brief attempt to switch to D2 was a dumb move.

[Gregory Sager]

(I was going to comment that Big Rapids, Allendale, Houghton, Sault Ste. Marie, and Marquette might as well be in Kyrgyzstan as far as Roosevelt University is concerned, but you'd probably reply that the view is better at universities in Kyrgyzstan. )

[itsnotmeitsyou]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

That'll result in a pretty hefty travel budget for conference play, with three members (Lake Superior, Michigan Tech, Northern Michigan) in the U.P. and others (Davenport, Ferris, Grand Valley, Saginaw Valley, Wayne State) a good four- to five-hour bus ride.  Also a pretty competitive conference in a lot of sports, most notably football and hockey.

We'll... NO it won't. UW-Parkisde (Kenosha, WI) and Purdue Univ.-Northwest (Hammond, IN) are current members of the GLIAC. This means that conference members will not have an appreciably longer, larger, or more costly travel commitment to fulfill their conference scheduling commitments.

[itsnotmeitsyou]

Roosevelt is applying to join D2, and the GLIAC has provisionally offered Roosevelt membership.

If Roosevelt does in fact join the D2 ranks, it will be interesting to see how that affects Chicagoland recruiting.

Roosevelt U becoming a member of the GLIAC, as a D2 member, will not change the recruiting landscape in the Chicago-area in any way, shape, or form. From a basketball perspective, the only material change will be an internally focused major increase in operational expenditures vs. an increase in athletic scholarships.

The facility, campus - or lack thereof, and location will present gargantuan challenges given the competitive landscape that they will soon find themselves in as a member of the GLIAC.

[markerickson]

Robert Morris competed in a hockey league comprised of "club" teams.  For example, the U of Illinois does not sponsor varsity hockey nor does Northern Illinois.  https://www.achahockey.org/stats/standings?league=1&season=10&division=1

Roosevelt will certainly axe sports as it inexplicably moves to D2.

I recall RM made a splash a couple of years ago when it announced it would offer scholarships to its e-sports gaming "team."  At the time I thought this was a tactic to boost enrollment of males. 

If wiggling a joystick/controller is considered a sport, then chess should be as well.  Both practice, have a coach, compete, and there is a definite outcome (winner/loser).

[WUPHF]

It might be changing, but DePaul's still the top dog among the two D1 Catholic universities on the North Side as far as media attention goes. It's bigger, it's had more long-term basketball success, and  its location (Lincoln Park is a much more visible and well-heeled neighborhood than the Rogers Park community tucked away in the city's far northeastern corner that Loyola calls home) gives it some natural advantages over its Red Line rival.

Of course, the reality is that neither school enjoys the media coverage it used to have. Locally-based college basketball doesn't draw as much interest here as it used to. I think that some of that has to do with the fact that the yuppies that have inundated the lakeshore neighborhoods of the North Side typically represent different rooting constituencies as far as college sports are concerned; for every Chad or Trixie in Lake View, Wrigleyville, Lincoln Park, Old Town, etc., who roots for DePaul or Loyola, there's fifty of them who root for various Big Ten schools.

But the bigger issue is that neither school draws what it ought to draw for home men's basketball games, given their size, the fact that they're D1, and the fact that both schools tend to have locally-based alumni. Last season the DePaul vs. Loyola game filled only two-thirds of Wintrust Arena (which, at 10,000 seats, is not gigantic by D1 standards); DePaul vs. Marquette drew only 6,000 to Wintrust, and most of DePaul's home games filled only about a quarter of the seats. This is in spite of the fact that DePaul fans complained for years that playing home game in far-off Rosemont at the Allstate Arena kept attendance down. Now that the Blue Demons play in the city again (albeit downtown rather than on the Lincoln Park campus), they still don't draw well. Loyola is more fortunate in that regard in that Joseph J. Gentile Arena, which seats 4,400 fans, is right on campus. It's a great place to watch a basketball game. But the Ramblers don't fill it up; they had one sellout last year (Drake) and only topped the 4,000 mark two other times (Missouri State and Northern Iowa). When the Ramblers played Bradley and Illinois State, two in-state rivals that you'd think would fill up the Joe, the stands were only three-quarters full.

Thanks Greg!  This is very interesting...

I never understood the decision to build the arena downtown, even acknowledging the downtown campus and the lake of real estate in Lincoln Park.  Of course, we are talking about a school that rehired Dave Leitao so...

Also, I had no idea Robert Morris and Roosevelt merged.  Probably a good idea and a way to delay the inevitable.

[Gregory Sager]

I recall RM made a splash a couple of years ago when it announced it would offer scholarships to its e-sports gaming "team."  At the time I thought this was a tactic to boost enrollment of males.

It may be, but all of the collegiate esports teams I've seen listed online are coed.

If wiggling a joystick/controller is considered a sport,

No "if" about it, Mark. It's been considered a sport for quite some time now, and more and more schools are adding esports programs. The latest example is our alma mater; North Park is going to begin competing in intercollegiate esports in 2023-24.

then chess should be as well.  Both practice, have a coach, compete, and there is a definite outcome (winner/loser).

Yes, and chess teams have existed forever, particularly at the high school level. But here's the thing: Chess isn't that popular with Gen Z, whereas "wiggling a joystick/controller" is. And that's why esports is now being sponsored by an increasing number of college and university athletics departments, while chess isn't.

Also, I had no idea Robert Morris and Roosevelt merged.  Probably a good idea and a way to delay the inevitable.

Yeah, it was, but it has certainly made Roosevelt's economic circumstances more complicated. Athletics is only one example of that. It just seems to me that D3 not only better fits the template of what Roosevelt wants to be in terms of its public face, it's also a better fit for a school that has found itself in the wake of the merger with such a broad array of sponsored sports.

The question is not just, "What sports will Roosevelt cut?" but, "Where will Roosevelt seek its D2 student-athletes?" For men's basketball, at least, the city offers some distinct advantages in that regard; city guys are less likely to be turned off by the undersized and unimpressive Goodman Center than others. Nor are they likely to be put off by the idea of a college campus being vertical rather than horizontal. But academics and finances make it hard to build a basketball team at a four-year school with just Chicago Public League kids. So -- do they range afar (i.e., downstate, Indiana, Wisconsin, Michigan) or do they work the suburbs, knowing that a Chicago campus is a bug, not a feature, for a great many suburban high schoolers? Or do they get around that by pushing Roosevelt's Schaumburg campus as the student-athlete's academic home and the Chicago campus as the student-athlete's athletic home? And does the almighty scholarship -- the totem of an 18-year-old's ultimate basketball success that, as Next Man Up correctly informs us on a regular basis, typically seems to trump all else in terms of a high school senior's considerations?

Granted, we're only talking about twelve student-athletes at the most, but where Dee Brown goes to get his players -- and what sort of sales pitch he uses -- certainly has the potential to have an impact upon CCIW recruiting, given that CCIW teams are always trying to push the envelope between a D2-quality player and a D3-quality player on the recruiting trail.