MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[mwunder]

IWU rises to #2 in the latest poll.  Now receiving 3 first place votes.  The "other" Wesleyan still #1.  Trine dropping down.

No comments heard from John Wesley.   

'70

Lucy pulled the football away from Charlie Brown after that comment...AAUGH!

[Gregory Sager]

[Gregory Sager]

Since Wheaton is home on Saturday we will be returning to a staggered tipoff schedule rather than the common starting time we've had for games for the past couple of weeks:

Augustana (12-8, 5-6) @ Millikin (11-10, 5-7), 4:15 pm
Illinois Wesleyan (18-3, 10-2) @ Carthage (15-5, 9-2), 4:15 pm
North Park (14-7, 9-3) @ North Central (12-9, 5-7), 4:15 pm
Carroll (6-14, 2-9) @ Wheaton (4-16, 1-10), 7 pm

[iwu70]

Ziggy, I think only in distant and feeble ways now.  The funding coming from the Church declined over the years and the institutions lost interest, became more secular and self-governing.  At IWU, some past IWU Presidents were even hostile to the church connection and affiliation, and church-affiliated Board members became fewer and fewer, with By-Law changes.  The last UMC ordained, clergy President at IWU was President Lloyd Bertholf (a dear and close friend of my Father's) and he left IWU in 1967 when Robert Eckley, an economist and former Caterpillar executive was named President.  Eckley was there 18 years, arriving on a CAT helicopter when I was Student Senate President -- we all turned out on the Quad to welcome "Big Bob."   I just attended his spouse's funeral a few days ago.  President Eckley died 3-4 years ago.  Nell Eckley was a unique character in her own right and did much good for the campus, for the University.  She passed at 99.  A one-of-a-kind personality, especially for her era.  She came to our class reunions in recent cycles, especially our 40th or 45th -- we asked her what she thought of IWU finally having a woman President after 170 years, or whatever it was, and she quickly said, "I'm not available!"   

Much has changed since that earlier UMC-affiliated era -- with Minor Myers jr., a bunch of interims, a good phase with Dick Wilson, then Eric Jensen and Georgia Nugent -- now the new one, Sheahon Zenger.  We'll see how it all goes with all the challenges relatively selective liberal arts institutions on this smaller scale now face.  I'm not terribly optimistic.  So many headwinds, some bad decisions, poorer academic quality and offerings, cutbacks and program reductions, and many financial, enrollment, and fundraising challenges. 

IWU'70

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Houghton is still directly affiliated with the Wesleyan Church.

[Gregory Sager]

Are any of the Wesleyans even Wesleyan anymore?

If by "Wesleyan" you mean a school with that word in its name, Zac, the answer is yes. I covered this on CCIW Chat last week:

There are still schools bearing his name that John Wesley would recognize today as his institutional heirs. They just don't have a heritage of connection to the United Methodist Church, which is not terribly surprising. Rather, they're affiliated with smaller, more evangelical denominations within the Methodist/Holiness tradition.

One is Roberts Wesleyan University, a D2 school affiliated with the Free Methodist Church and located in a suburb of Rochester, NY. Three others are affiliated with another Holiness denomination, the Wesleyan Church: Southern Wesleyan University in Central, SC (a D2 school), and Oklahoma Wesleyan University in Bartlesville, OK and Indiana Wesleyan University in Marion, IN (both NAIA schools).

Indiana Wesleyan is the largest private institution of higher learning in Indiana, larger even than Notre Dame and Butler. John Wesley might even root for Indiana Wesleyan University if he stepped out of a time machine in Marion; that school, known as "Eye-Woo" by our next-door neighbors of the Hoosier persuasion, has won three NAIA men's basketball national championships and an NAIA women's basketball national championship within the last decade, and the Wildcats are also a national powerhouse in NAIA football.

All of these schools advertise themselves on their websites front-and-center as being Christian institutions of higher learning, use Christian signifiers in describing themselves in their "About this school" dropdowns, and devote a lot of space on their websites to describing the school's spiritual life and chapel offerings.

As the quote indicates, none of them are D3 institutions. But one of them, Roberts Wesleyan, has a sister Free Methodist school in the D3 ranks, SLIAC member Greenville, from right here in Region 8. And Southern Wesleyan, Oklahoma Wesleyan, and Indiana Wesleyan are sister institutions of Houghton College, which is a D3 school in western New York that, as Ryan said, also belongs to the Wesleyan Church denomination. (To bring this back to D3 basketball, one of North Park's starting guards, senior Preston Bax III, transferred to NPU from Houghton.)

[markerickson]

I dragged my wife to last night's defensive debacle at North Park to meet up with friends.  I suppose it was around the time at 9 minutes in the first half - when AA candidate Soren Richardson had scored 16 of Wheaton's 22 points (NP led by 5) - that my wife said NP should double team Richardson.  We all agreed.  With NP coughing up a large lead only to be reduced to a paltry 7 at half in a game that should have been a rout, I kept saying I was uncomfortable with the lead. Leading by 6, Richardson had 40/74 Wheaton points with 8:39 left.  Had NP collapsed on D or double teamed the ONE guy???  No.  At the 4:14 mark, with Wheaton up 88-80, Richardson had 45 points.  NP had been rotating defenders on Richardson to no avail, but never changed the scheme.  With 19 seconds remaining, Richardson continued to exceed 50% of Wheaton's point total with 53/102. North Park prides itself with defense, but last night left all four of us wondering aloud why the scheme never changed.

NP shot 47% and 43% from two and three, respectively, not 56/50% as previously reported.  NP had 15 more attempts than Wheaton.  There was a stretch when NP missed at least 9 trey attempts in a row or so it seemed...perhaps I just grew weary of the chucking when NP could have penetrated at will.  However, it also seemed like NP missed at least 10 shots within a couple feet from the hoop in the second half.  We just shook our heads in disbelief as did the couple behind us.

I did find it odd that Richardson played about 75% of the game with 2 fouls.  He clearly got away with numerous hooks and pushes and benefited from moving picks.  Had he picked up a third foul within the first 25 minutes, who knows, because he was THE GUY yet NP failed to appropriately counter.

Richardson scored at will, and often benefited from an interior pass, which those around me commented over and over that NP sorely lacked.

[Greek Tragedy]

Let's pump the breaks on the "AA candidate" talk. Yeah, 53 is a great performance on efficient shooting, but, as an outsider, I didn't really know his name like I know Roper or the Johnson brothers on Carthage or anyone else. He averaged just over 20 ppg prior to the output last night. He gets almost 5 rpg and his A:TO ratio is basically 1:1. His team was 3-16 and winless in the CCIW before last night.

[Green Beer]

We'll see how it all goes with all the challenges relatively selective liberal arts institutions on this smaller scale now face.  I'm not terribly optimistic.  So many headwinds, some bad decisions, poorer academic quality and offerings, cutbacks and program reductions, and many financial, enrollment, and fundraising challenges.

IWU has been able to keep its enrollment numbers relatively stable, but a slight trend downward. Everyone knows the demographics by now. I supposed the philosophy for tuition-based schools is to hold out while weaker schools close and then fight over their bones (students). The assumption being, those students are interested in a small, private school experience.

I work down the road at Illinois State, and politics plays a much greater role. Eastern Illinois, Western and Governers State would've been gone long ago without state support. Local representatives are adamant that they receive enough funding for survival due to their economic impact in their local area. Any proposal to close a couple of them to bolster enrollment and the remaining universities doesn't gain traction. Illinois State's enrollment is quite strong. Not sure the exact reason, but an easy Amtrack ride from the Chicago area sure as heck doesn't hurt. ISU admin doesn't sit on its hands. They're playing the China card and have started an Engineering school. U of I turns down tons of Chinese students from its Engineering program, and ISU intends on scooping them up.

Eckley was there 18 years, arriving on a CAT helicopter when I was Student Senate President -- we all turned out on the Quad to welcome "Big Bob."  I just attended his spouse's funeral a few days ago.  President Eckley died 3-4 years ago.  Nell Eckley was a unique character in her own right and did much good for the campus, for the University.  She passed at 99.

Robert Eckley. He was President when I attended. A very nice person. His wife, Nell? I don't speak ill of the departed.

Sorry I'm so far off topic.

[ziggy]

Are any of the Wesleyans even Wesleyan anymore?

If by "Wesleyan" you mean a school with that word in its name, Zac, the answer is yes. I covered this on CCIW Chat last week:

There are still schools bearing his name that John Wesley would recognize today as his institutional heirs. They just don't have a heritage of connection to the United Methodist Church, which is not terribly surprising. Rather, they're affiliated with smaller, more evangelical denominations within the Methodist/Holiness tradition.

One is Roberts Wesleyan University, a D2 school affiliated with the Free Methodist Church and located in a suburb of Rochester, NY. Three others are affiliated with another Holiness denomination, the Wesleyan Church: Southern Wesleyan University in Central, SC (a D2 school), and Oklahoma Wesleyan University in Bartlesville, OK and Indiana Wesleyan University in Marion, IN (both NAIA schools).

Indiana Wesleyan is the largest private institution of higher learning in Indiana, larger even than Notre Dame and Butler. John Wesley might even root for Indiana Wesleyan University if he stepped out of a time machine in Marion; that school, known as "Eye-Woo" by our next-door neighbors of the Hoosier persuasion, has won three NAIA men's basketball national championships and an NAIA women's basketball national championship within the last decade, and the Wildcats are also a national powerhouse in NAIA football.

All of these schools advertise themselves on their websites front-and-center as being Christian institutions of higher learning, use Christian signifiers in describing themselves in their "About this school" dropdowns, and devote a lot of space on their websites to describing the school's spiritual life and chapel offerings.

As the quote indicates, none of them are D3 institutions. But one of them, Roberts Wesleyan, has a sister Free Methodist school in the D3 ranks, SLIAC member Greenville, from right here in Region 8. And Southern Wesleyan, Oklahoma Wesleyan, and Indiana Wesleyan are sister institutions of Houghton College, which is a D3 school in western New York that, as Ryan said, also belongs to the Wesleyan Church denomination. (To bring this back to D3 basketball, one of North Park's starting guards, senior Preston Bax III, transferred to NPU from Houghton.)

I was meaning to refer more specifically to the D3 schools that have "Wesleyan" in their name but that is a very good and thorough answer It didn't seem to me that Wesleyan, Illinois Wesleyan or Virginia Wesleyan actually operate as "Wesleyan" institutions and it appears that is correct, though not more broadly applied to schools that play at other divisions.

[ziggy]

We'll see how it all goes with all the challenges relatively selective liberal arts institutions on this smaller scale now face.  I'm not terribly optimistic.  So many headwinds, some bad decisions, poorer academic quality and offerings, cutbacks and program reductions, and many financial, enrollment, and fundraising challenges.

IWU has been able to keep its enrollment numbers relatively stable, but a slight trend downward. Everyone knows the demographics by now. I supposed the philosophy for tuition-based schools is to hold out while weaker schools close and then fight over their bones (students). The assumption being, those students are interested in a small, private school experience.

I work down the road at Illinois State, and politics plays a much greater role. Eastern Illinois, Western and Governers State would've been gone long ago without state support. Local representatives are adamant that they receive enough funding for survival due to their economic impact in their local area. Any proposal to close a couple of them to bolster enrollment and the remaining universities doesn't gain traction. Illinois State's enrollment is quite strong. Not sure the exact reason, but an easy Amtrack ride from the Chicago area sure as heck doesn't hurt. ISU admin doesn't sit on its hands. They're playing the China card and have started an Engineering school. U of I turns down tons of Chinese students from its Engineering program, and ISU intends on scooping them up.

A few weeks ago I came across this Forbes 2024 Financial Grades list. It has Illinois Wesleyan rated at a "B", which seems quite strong given the current financial state of higher education overall.
https://talk.collegeconfidential.com/t/forbes-2024-financial-grades/3672040/4

[Gregory Sager]

I dragged my wife to last night's defensive debacle at North Park to meet up with friends.  I suppose it was around the time at 9 minutes in the first half - when AA candidate Soren Richardson had scored 16 of Wheaton's 22 points (NP led by 5) - that my wife said NP should double team Richardson.  We all agreed.

Well, then, perhaps one of you should've walked down to the floor, tapped Ed McGhee on the shoulder, and informed him that he was hereby replaced as coach.

With NP coughing up a large lead only to be reduced to a paltry 7 at half in a game that should have been a rout,

"Should have been a rout"



Do you honestly think that games are automatically dictated by the W-L records of the two teams? Have you never heard of an upset? Wheaton played like a team possessed and never quit, not even when down 16 in the first half. You do realize that there was another team out there besides North Park, right?

This sort of thing happens. It's particularly prone to happen when it's late in the season and you're facing an extremely young team that has some serious bona-fide talent that has simply been taking its lumps all season while it figures out how to put 40 minutes of good basketball together. That's why I brought up the analogy of the NPU teams of the last decade. This is exactly what Henry, Robinson, Cobbs, and Lake started doing when they were underclassmen and they first started to figure out how to beat good teams. This is how they beat #17 North Central and #4 Augustana on consecutive Saturdays in 2014-15 when that quartet of Vikings were all freshmen and sophomores.

I kept saying I was uncomfortable with the lead. Leading by 6, Richardson had 40/74 Wheaton points with 8:39 left.  Had NP collapsed on D or double teamed the ONE guy???  No.  At the 4:14 mark, with Wheaton up 88-80, Richardson had 45 points.  NP had been rotating defenders on Richardson to no avail, but never changed the scheme.  With 19 seconds remaining, Richardson continued to exceed 50% of Wheaton's point total with 53/102. North Park prides itself with defense, but last night left all four of us wondering aloud why the scheme never changed.

Mark, it doesn't appear that you've grasped the defensive philosophy NPU has used for three seasons now under Sean Smith and Ed McGhee. The Vikings employ a switching defense; that is to say, all five NPU defenders are expected to be able to switch over to any opposing player, so as to prevent opponents from using screens to open up shooters or screen-roll divers. There's no purposeful switching, and thus no "rotating defenders," because there's no fixed defensive assignments; a switching defense is fluid.

It was plain as day that Richardson was pretty tightly covered most of the night no matter who happened to be on him at any given moment. There were a few times when he got a moment's free space on the perimeter to shoot a trey as a result of a Wheaton cutter diving to the basket and then immediately kicking back to Richardson upon catching the pass, or by his using a sidestep move (he has the best one in the league), but NPU closes out defensively as well as any team in the CCIW (the Vikings are 3rd in trey % defense), and the Vikings were doing just that last night. There were also a few occasions when he was able to get free on a cut to the basket, but, honestly, every Wheaton player (especially VanderWoude) was doing that. As I said last night, NPU's off-ball defense was painfully bad when it came to staying with cutters.

Chalk up what Richardson did to: a) his ability to shoot in tight spaces; and b) his extremely quick release, which, with his accuracy and his court awareness, are what makes him the most dangerous scoring threat in the league even though he's only a sophomore. In terms of his specific skill set, Soren Richardson is the closest thing to Steve Djurickovic that the CCIW has seen since ... well, since Steve Djurickovic himself -- except that he lacks Steve D.'s ability to draw contact and then shoot accurately while contacted, thus coaxing a steady stream of and-one calls out of the refs.

Also, I don't think you know what "collapsing" means as a defensive term. It doesn't mean swarming a specific player no matter where he is on the floor; it means multiple players retreating into the paint to prevent an opponent (either a driver or a player in the low post with his back to the basket) from getting an easy basket. If NPU collapsed every time that Richardson touched the ball last night, he wouldn't have scored 53 points. He would've scored 102 all by himself.

NP shot 47% and 43% from two and three, respectively, not 56/50% as previously reported.

Yes, that's my bad for transposing Wheaton's and NPU's numbers. But 47% and 43% are still very good, especially in terms of treys.

NP had 15 more attempts than Wheaton.  There was a stretch when NP missed at least 9 trey attempts in a row or so it seemed

Nope. Never more than six misses in a row, which is bad enough in itself.

...perhaps I just grew weary of the chucking when NP could have penetrated at will.

That simply isn't true, Mark. Penetrating against a zone is difficult. That's one of the two main reasons why teams employ zone defenses in the first place. You either use it to shut down a drive-oriented team (i.e., North Park), or you use it to try to shut down a team with big post players.

There is no "penetration at will" against a 2-3. You either swing the ball around the perimeter and use ball reverses and fakes to free up outside shooters (which is what NPU did all night, clearly to excess), or you station a tall player who can pass and can hit a 15' jumper at the high post and get him the ball in order to break up the zone from inside it (which NPU didn't do enough of last night), or you work the short corners with scissor cuts and look for the high-low pass (NPU needed to do that more often, too). That's how you beat a 2-3 zone.

The bottom line is that, even with that six-missed-treys drought and a lack of patience in terms of passing the ball inside rather than relying upon abbreviated drive-and-kicks against Wheaton's 2-3, the Vikings still scored 89 points last night. As I said, that's 15 points more than a typical CCIW team scores on any given night. If you lose on a night when you score 89, then your defense is the problem, not your offense.

However, it also seemed like NP missed at least 10 shots within a couple feet from the hoop in the second half.  We just shook our heads in disbelief as did the couple behind us.

Yep, very true. It happens. It's particularly prone to happen when a team is playing tight and nervous. A team that had yet to win a CCIW game this year had come into NPU's house and was running up the score at the east end of the floor, and the Vikings were clearly feeling it when they got close to the rim at the west end.

I did find it odd that Richardson played about 75% of the game with 2 fouls.  He clearly got away with numerous hooks and pushes and benefited from moving picks.  Had he picked up a third foul within the first 25 minutes, who knows, because he was THE GUY yet NP failed to appropriately counter.

I disagree. I watched the game again later, and I came away with the same impression that I had when I called it live, which is that Wheaton played a generally clean game. Schauer's boys were simply better than NPU last night, that's all there is to it. It kills me to say it, but it's the truth.

Richardson scored at will, and often benefited from an interior pass, which those around me commented over and over that NP sorely lacked.

Look at the stats, Mark. NPU had more assists (28) than did Wheaton (27). It probably seemed like Wheaton had more assists because, visually, cut-and-pass assists look more constructive than kickout assists. That's because in the former the ball moves from the passer to the shooter towards the basket, and in the latter the ball moves from the passer to the shooter away from the basket.

[Gregory Sager]

I work down the road at Illinois State, and politics plays a much greater role. Eastern Illinois, Western and Governers State would've been gone long ago without state support. Local representatives are adamant that they receive enough funding for survival due to their economic impact in their local area. Any proposal to close a couple of them to bolster enrollment and the remaining universities doesn't gain traction.

Exactly right about politics keeping the smaller schools alive. The talk around town here in Chicago is that one of the non-UI-system public universities is going to have to close soon due to the demographic downturn and the state's dire financial straits. That means either Northeastern Illinois University (North Side) or Chicago State University (South Side) will be on the chopping block. Since CSU is better connected politically in Springfield, it'll probably be North Park's neighbor NEIU that has to go.

Illinois State's enrollment is quite strong. Not sure the exact reason, but an easy Amtrack ride from the Chicago area sure as heck doesn't hurt.

Economy of scale has a lot to do with it, I'm sure. ISU is bigger than Western Illinois, Eastern Illinois, Governors State, and Chicago State put together.

ISU admin doesn't sit on its hands. They're playing the China card and have started an Engineering school. U of I turns down tons of Chinese students from its Engineering program, and ISU intends on scooping them up.

I wouldn't count upon Chinese students being a dependable long-term resource.

Sorry I'm so far off topic.

Going off-topic is a longstanding tradition on this board, as all of this recent discussion here of an 18th-century English clergyman has demonstrated.

[deiscanton]

Reports from outside Chicagoland say the game is not available on FUBO either.  May not be viewable outside the region.

TitanQ posted that he was able to get the game on his DirecTV package from Dallas, TX.  So, it was available for DirecTV Choice plus Sports Pack subscribers living outside of the Chicago Cubs in-market territory.

I just wanted to give a quick update to mention that I researched all of the zip codes covering the 9 CCIW campuses today, and Marquee Sports Network is an out of market RSN for Waukesha, WI, where the Carroll Pioneers are located. Waukesha, WI is considered part of the Milwaukee Brewers baseball territory.   All of the other CCIW institutions have cable providers that have Marquee Sports Network in-market. 

Just for the record, I also agree with Greg that the CCIW should not go into the PPV business to begin with.  I was writing separately earlier this year to also express a pragmatic objection about the geographical blunders of Carthage's decision to put games on Marquee Sports Network. 

For the record, I am not going to waste a 5 day free trial on DIRECTV just to watch IWU at Carthage this weekend.   I do not want to reward the Carthage Athletic Communications Department for stabbing D3Nation in the back.   Thanks for shutting out your video feed this weekend to most of us, Carthage, and forcing us to follow this game tomorrow like we were back in the 1990s.

[Gregory Sager]

Just for the record, I also agree with Greg that the CCIW should not go into the PPV business to begin with.  I was writing separately earlier this year to also express a pragmatic objection about the geographical blunders of Carthage's decision to put games on Marquee Sports Network. 

For the record, I am not going to waste a 5 day free trial on DIRECTV just to watch IWU at Carthage this weekend.  I do not want to reward the Carthage Athletic Communications Department for stabbing D3Nation in the back.  Thanks for shutting out your video feed this weekend to most of us, Carthage, and forcing us to follow this game tomorrow like we were back in the 1990s.

Thank you, Allen. You watch probably as much D3 hoops online as anybody, maybe even including the D3hoops.com voters, and you've certainly researched the PPV topic, so this means a lot coming from you.