MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[augiedad]

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/cs-0602120060feb12,1,1708412.story?coll=cs-college-print&ctrack=1&cset=true

Quality list

Glenbrook North's 6-7 Zach Kelly probably won't have to tangle again with the likes of a 7-0 Greg Oden, whom he was to face Saturday night in the City-Suburban Showdown. Oden is headed to Ohio State for likely one season before becoming the NBA's No. 1 draft pick. Kelly has narrowed his list of colleges to Lafayette, Dartmouth, Colgate, Illinois Wesleyan and Washington University in St. Louis.

[Mr. Ypsi]

bluemom (and Q),

Yes, Augie is a lock, EVEN if they have a 5-game losing streak!  I was mixing up a CCIW tie-breaker (record over last 9[?] games), or how the more subjective selections in d1 are done, with the (overly-mechanically applied, in my opinion) criteria in d3.  End of season 'collapse' (IF it were to occur) is irrelevant if your over-all numbers are there.

I THINK IWU is a lock even if they were to lose 3 straight (and a home game against NPU would seem to make that a rather remote possibility), but they might fall to (hopefully the high side of) the bubble.

IF NCC goes 3-0 prior to the title game, I think they'll make it.  2-1, I think they are on the upper end of the bubble (probably depends on how many expected AQs become C candidates).  1-2, big doubties.

I think Elmhurst already has too many losses to win a pool C.  The next two games may not matter, but the two after that had better both be wins!

bluemom, alas (for IWU) talent and following are NOT official selection criteria!

[Jim Matson]

Congrats to Jordan Kemper for a well deserved CCIW Player of the Week award.  Could a player have a better week than he did?  I'm certain that this was his 1st POTW award in his 4 years at Wheaton.

Bode Miller...CCIW Tourney...hopefully we won't see any similarities.

[Titan Q]

Interesting comments from Coach Andrist of UW-Stout on Hoopsville tonight.  He said the WIAC has actually discussed moving away from the conference tournament since it leads to additional losses for Pool C candidates.  This has been Scott Trost's position on the conference tournament concept.

Under the present system of in-region winning % and Quality of Wins Index, as I see it, it really does not make sense for "power conferences" to play more games against each other than they have to.  The regular season league slate is damaging enough in terms of in-region losses and hits to the QOWI...why subject your Pool C candidates to more games vs the powerful teams atop the league?

Amherst coach David Hixon conceded on Hoopsville tonight that the NESCAC benefits from not playing a double round robin.  In other words, they're better off since Amherst, Bates, Tufts, Williams, and the top teams every year do not play each other twice in the conference season - more opportunity to go beat up on the other Northeast Region teams and boost the in-region winning % and QOWI.

While I do not like the way the NESCAC does things (a double round robin is the only way to go), I think leagues like the CCIW and WIAC should take a page out of the NESCAC's book and keep their teams the heck away from each other when possible.  I still think the conference tournament makes no sense as billed by the College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin...

"Implementing the tournament is a significant step in the history of the CCIW," said Martin. "We hope that showcasing our top teams in the tournament will help us get a second, at-large bid, to the NCAA field each year.

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/cciwtournamentapproved.php


I don't buy it.

[Johnny Augie]

Dansand, Johnnie Augie....if I had April's recipes for her cookies I would bring some when we come to Rock Island for the Conference Tournament.  (See I have been lurking and reading a long time!)  But my cooking, it would not be worth your time or anticipation!!!!

I've had those cookies and they are some of the best.

Jordan Kemper is a well deserved Player of the Week.  He was key in two great upsets in one week.  Well done.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't buy it.

Well, in the commissioner's defense, what else do you expect him to say, really?

"Frankly, I think this is a stupid idea, but hey, five coaches voted for it so I have to implement it."

[Gregory Sager]

devildog29 - I could not agree more.  Augie thus far has found a way to win. Whether Augie backed in, drove in or jumped in -- they in.  I disagree however with your statement about nobdoy expected Augie to be in this postiion.  In the CCIW pre-season coached poll one coached voted for Augie.  And, since a coach can't cast a vote for his own team -- that would then most likely be my guess -- IWU's Scott Trost.

C'mon, IWM, you're inverting the meaning of Trost's vote. Scott Trost can't vote for his own team -- but if he could've voted for the Titans he most certainly would have done so. Do you really think that Trost thought back in November that Augustana would beat out his team for the CCIW crown? Do you really think he wouldn't have voted for Illinois Wesleyan if the coaches poll's rules had allowed him to do so?

I'd bet all the corn in Manito that Scott Trost, his assistant coaches, and every single member of the Titans roster were absolutely convinced back in November that Illinois Wesleyan was going to win the 2006 CCIW championship. If you were one of the Titans, why would you allow yourself to even mention the word "Salem" in the preseason if you didn't think you were going to win the conference?

Devildog had it right -- nobody expected Augie to be in this position, unless you take into consideration some true-believer zealotry on the part of the Doggies themselves.

[John Gleich]

I don't buy it.

Well, in the commissioner's defense, what else do you expect him to say, really?

"Frankly, I think this is a stupid idea, but hey, five coaches voted for it so I have to implement it."

I've gotta be honest... I read this message, and then I read through the article twice, looking for where he said that!

That's great Pat, just great!

[Ralph Turner]

Interesting comments from Coach Andrist of UW-Stout on Hoopsville tonight.  He said the WIAC has actually discussed moving away from the conference tournament since it leads to additional losses for Pool C candidates.  This has been Scott Trost's position on the conference tournament concept.

Under the present system of in-region winning % and Quality of Wins Index, as I see it, it really does not make sense for "power conferences" to play more games against each other than they have to.  The regular season league slate is damaging enough in terms of in-region losses and hits to the QOWI...why subject your Pool C candidates to more games vs the powerful teams atop the league?

Amherst coach David Hixon conceded on Hoopsville tonight that the NESCAC benefits from not playing a double round robin.  In other words, they're better off since Amherst, Bates, Tufts, Williams, and the top teams every year do not play each other twice in the conference season - more opportunity to go beat up on the other Northeast Region teams and boost the in-region winning % and QOWI.

While I do not like the way the NESCAC does things (a double round robin is the only way to go), I think leagues like the CCIW and WIAC should take a page out of the NESCAC's book and keep their teams the heck away from each other when possible.  I still think the conference tournament makes no sense as billed by the College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin...

"Implementing the tournament is a significant step in the history of the CCIW," said Martin. "We hope that showcasing our top teams in the tournament will help us get a second, at-large bid, to the NCAA field each year.

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/cciwtournamentapproved.php


I don't buy it.

I agree with you, Q.  

To emulate the other half of the NESCAC success is for the CCIW members to identify as many Midwest Region opponents as possible that should finish the season >.500 and schedule them.

The NESCAC does have 58 teams in six other conferences vs. 42 teams in 4 other conferences plus WashStL and UChicago in the Midwest from which to pick.

And a road game is worth an extra point!

(I have tried to make my point clearer by adding the italicized words.  Thanks to my friends who suggested that I clarify that posting. )

[Ralph Turner]

...

"Implementing the tournament is a significant step in the history of the CCIW," said Martin. "We hope that showcasing our top teams in the tournament will help us get a second, at-large bid, to the NCAA field each year.

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/cciwtournamentapproved.php

...

I understood it perfectly.  It is a dialect that executives have to learn.  Pat has learned it well, too.

The second interpretation is,

"We know that we have 4 teams in the Top 25.  If I can eliminate 2 of them in the Post-season tourney, I think that it will help to get (only) a second, at-large bid, to the NCAA field each year."

[Gregory Sager]

Augie is a lock for a Pool C.  In my opinion, and again no disrespect intended....(here I go, stop me when I insult someone), I don't think the committee will sit out a team like IWU....a team who in the eyes of coaches, ADs, sportswriters, you name it, was one of the best teams ....ranked first in everyone's eyes (and still is in talent) in D-III.   There also is one other elemennt that is there with IWU that is considered that no one talks about in selection Sundays, and that is Fan Base, and we all admit that IWU has it and will have it.....Therefore I believe IWU is a pool C lock.  Talent and Following!  It's good for basketball

Sorry, Bluemom, but as Chuck said, "talent" and "following" are not two of the five primary criteria used by the D3 selection committee when they choose Pool C teams on Selection Monday. You're assuming some leeway for subjectivity on the part of the committee where very little of it exists. It's really all a matter of applying the criteria in order to get the 18 Pool C teams. There will be no Illinois Wesleyan conspiracy on Selection Monday, either pro or anti.

Although conference standing is of no consideration, I can't get around that, whether we have a conference tournament or no conference tournament, If either NCC or Elmhurst end the season tied for second or first equal to or better in position to Augustana and IWU, with the respect (or sometimes relunctant respect=envy) that conferences have for the CCIW, I would say that we have at least three solid seats......the selection group hoping that either IWU or Augie, and anyone tied with those two win the conference tournament. Naturally they would prefer the Higher QOWI.

Again, you're predicting a subjective gesture by the committee where little or no room for subjectivity exists. North Central and Elmhurst are both on very shaky ground where Pool C is concerned; if one of them does somehow manage to get into the big dance as an at-large, it'll be on the strength of how they measured up in the five primary criteria. The respect/envy other D3 people have with regard to the CCIW is irrelevant to the process.

There just isn't a lot of room for whim, opinion, or sentiment in the metaphorical smoke-filled room on Selection Monday. The D3 handbook puts the committee on a very tight leash. The only play on that leash is in how much weight they give to each of the five primary criteria -- and that's a pretty limited amount of play.

I THINK IWU is a lock even if they were to lose 3 straight (and a home game against NPU would seem to make that a rather remote possibility), but they might fall to (hopefully the high side of) the bubble.

I'm not sure how you're seeing that, Chuck. Wesleyan has a very good QOWI right now, but if the near-impossible were to happen and they were to lose to NPU next Saturday @ Shirk -- a 0 game on the 0-15 QOWI scale -- it would blow a hole in the Titans' QOWI so wide you could drive a Mack truck through it. And it would mean that the Titans would enter the CCIW tourney with an extremely dicey 13-6 regional record. The best that they could finish under those circumstances, given that it's Pool C we're discussing, is 14-7. One of the big problems facing the Titans is the fact that they didn't play that many regional games this year, meaning that they didn't have a chance to bolster their regional W-L percentage by fattening up on SLIAC and NIIC teams. Most of the other Pool C aspirants will be entering Selection Monday with anywhere from 16 to 21 or so regional wins, and fewer than 7 losses.

IF NCC goes 3-0 prior to the title game, I think they'll make it. 2-1, I think they are on the upper end of the bubble (probably depends on how many expected AQs become C candidates). 1-2, big doubties.

Again, Chuck, I don't see that (the "2-1 and they're upper end of the bubble" thing). The Cards are in the same position as the Titans -- they played a bunch of non-regional games in November and December that didn't help their regional W-L record, and as a result they're only sitting on 12 regional wins at the moment. A 2-1 record prior to the CCIW tourney title game, which of course means a 2-2 finish if they were to be waiting cap in hand for a Pool C berth on Selection Monday, would mean that they finished with a 14-7 record in the Midwest Region ... and a QOWI that's even worse than their current 9.353 (#71 nationally) QOWI. I don't see that adding up to even bubble status for the Cards.

[Gregory Sager]

Interesting comments from Coach Andrist of UW-Stout on Hoopsville tonight.  He said the WIAC has actually discussed moving away from the conference tournament since it leads to additional losses for Pool C candidates.  This has been Scott Trost's position on the conference tournament concept.

Under the present system of in-region winning % and Quality of Wins Index, as I see it, it really does not make sense for "power conferences" to play more games against each other than they have to.  The regular season league slate is damaging enough in terms of in-region losses and hits to the QOWI...why subject your Pool C candidates to more games vs the powerful teams atop the league?

Trost had it right from the beginning: If you're going to have a tournament, put all eight teams in it. That way, you're at least gaining an extra regional win for your Pool C aspirants with that first-round win. Presumably, the second-division CCIW teams would all be in relatively respectable shape with regard to regional records, due to the CCIW's dominance over its neighbors (unfortunately, NPU wouldn't have been any help in that regard this year). Because of that, playing and beating those second-division teams in the first round of an eight-team CCIW tourney wouldn't be so damaging to the QOWI of the victors.

Look at the current regional records of Wheaton, Carthage, and Millikin. Even if those three teams were to end the regular season without winning another game except against each other, and Carthage were to lose to NPU on Wednesday evening in the crackerbox, they'd end up 9-12, 8-12, and 9-12 in the Midwest Region, respectively. That means that each would be worth 10 QOWI points if the #2, #3, and #4 seeds beat them in Bloomington, Elmhurst, and Naperville. To put it another way, add another round to the tourney, and thus another home win for Pool C aspirants Illinois Wesleyan, Elmhurst, and North Central (presuming that the first round of the CCIW tourney would be played in the gyms of the top four seeds), and you're talking about 10-QOWI-point wins over Wheaton, Carthage, and Millikin. That would be pretty typical in any season for the CCIW. A 10-pointer won't do a lot of damage to a CCIW Pool C aspirant's QOWI; in Elmhurst's and North Central's case this year, it'd actually help. Plus, the higher seeds would each be adding an extra regional win.

Amherst coach David Hixon conceded on Hoopsville tonight that the NESCAC benefits from not playing a double round robin.

In other news, the NCAA awarded its annual Master of the Obvious Award to Amherst coach David Hixon this evening. 

I'd like to see the NCAA put a stop to the NESCAC's shenanigans. I want someone to propose legislation at the next D3 convention that would require all D3 member leagues to make their teams play a minimum of 12 league games. That's a double round-robin for a minimum-sized league of seven teams. The only conference in D3 whose teams don't currently play at least 12 league games is the NESCAC. What say you, Joe Hakes?

[Titan Q]

The Pantagraph's piece on the IWU/Augie game this evening...

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2006/02/15/sports/doc43f2caacca3cd742543114.txt

The comments from the two coaches sound like those on CCIW Chat yesterday...


The big question for the Vikings surrounds senior guard and CCIW scoring leader Rick Harrigan, who averages 23.0 points. Harrigan suffered a deep thigh bruise last Wednesday and played only 16 minutes in a loss to Wheaton. He sat out Saturday's defeat at Millikin.

"He's not ready," Augustana coach Grey Giovanine said Tuesday. "I don't know what his status will be by Wednesday. I don't know of any therapy other than time that will make a difference. There's no questioning his toughness, but it's really restricting his ability to move."

IWU coach Scott Trost is preparing for a full dose of Harrigan.

"He'll play. I don't think there's any question....," Trost said.

[Titan Q]

I don't buy it.

Well, in the commissioner's defense, what else do you expect him to say, really?

"Frankly, I think this is a stupid idea, but hey, five coaches voted for it so I have to implement it."

Chris Martin had a lot of options in what he said in that release.  He could have just touched on the concept of the tournament from the fans' perspective, as he did in that release:

"The tournament will be a very exciting event for our men's basketball programs."

No arguments there.  The tournament will be exciting and I think everyone at the Carver Center that weekend will enjoy seeing the CCIW's top 4 in action.  He didn't have to make the statement about the tournament helping to get another team in...again, it is a very debatable opinion, at best.  Martin was repeating the position of the coaches in the league that lobbied so hard for the tourney -- that it would help the CCIW get more teams in.  Again, some years, maybe...many years it will actually hurt.

I'm a big fan of the CCIW's commissioner, by the way...I just happen to think on this one Chris was off.

I also wonder how many leagues have a commissioner that has the same name as one of the best players.  Yet another reason the CCIW is such a fine league.

[Ralph Turner]

Gregory Sager's Replies #3582 and #3583 ought to be bookmarked as "Classics" for this board!   BRAVO!!!   
 

It is okay to dominate a region!  The NCAA has told us that they want a regional emphasis!  It is okay to "inflate your numbers by scheduling NIIC or SLIAC members".

My Pool C message board Reply #190 outlines how much the CCIW teams have increased their QOWI by winning non-conference in-region games.