MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

We saw the IWU scrimmage last night.  The Shirk will rock this year with excitement, even from the Geritol crowd.  There will be many pleasant surprises for all the "green" faithful and many unpleasant moments for the coaches who placed the Titans 5th in the CCIW race.
Granted, the opposition was nowhere near the CCIW caliber to be faced, but as a team I have never seen the movement, positioning, shooting ability and court awareness displayed by every player....in particular the sophomore-freshmen guard tandem I predict will be starting many games once the season starts.

Whoa, that's a lot of kool-aid for this early in the morning!

Just to annoy Greg!

1996: IWU 3rd in the country, graduated 4 starters, 1 junior star returning; 1997: national champions.
2006: IWU 3rd in the country, graduated 4 starters, 1 junior star returning; 2007: 

And petemcb accuses und63 of drinking the kool-aid!

[Just funnin' y'all! - but it COULD happen ]

Chuck, just to annoy me further I predict that within a week you'll be finding a way to inappropriately work the term "preseason" into your Titans-ten-years ago mantra. 

[Gregory Sager]

Pete, #22 is senior guard Raymond Lawrence.  However, that's dissappointing news to hear the freshmen guards didn't play very well.  I'm also shocked to hear Walton didn't play well.  I'd heard he scored close to 30pts during the 1st two 20 min. halves.  IYO, How did U of C look during the scrimmage? 

CP, one thing that Pete didn't mention is that Chicago is a guard-based team. The two returning starters in the backcourt for the Maroons, seniors Brandon Woodhead and Jesse Meyer, were both All-UAA players in 2005-06. Woodhead's been a starter since the beginning of his freshman season. Meyer has been in the rotation since the start of his sophomore season. They're very solid guards with a lot more experience than anybody North Central has to offer at this stage. Heck, I'll bet that Meyer, the less experienced of the two, has logged more playing time than all the guards on the North Central roster put together. Keeping that in mind, it's no surprise that the backcourt players for the Cardinals performed so poorly on Friday night against the Maroons.

Most years, the UAA's best team is on par with the CCIW's best.  The recent Rochester Final Four teams were obviously outstanding, as were the Wash U teams with Chris Jeffries.  There were the Chicago teams with Derek Reich, as well as the tough Pat Cunningham-led Chicago squads of the late '90's. 

Last year I think the CCIW had 4 teams better than the best UAA team (Carnegie Mellon), but the CCIW was incredibly strong at the top with Augustana, IWU, North Central, and Elmhurst, while the UAA - at the very top - was down in my estimation.  I am not sure who is favored to win the UAA this year, but knowing what they have returning, I think Wash U would be right in the middle of the CCIW contention picture.  (I think Wash U is going to be very tough this year.)  They'd probably be picked 2nd or 3rd in the preseason coaches poll.  

Where the CCIW is a better league is in the depth, year-in and year-out.  Most years the CCIW's 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc. place teams are better than their standings counterparts in the UAA.  That is not always true, but I'd say more years than not it is.

I have no idea where the 2006-07 U. of Chicago Maroons stack up vs the top CCIW contenders.  Chicago, while doing OK in the UAA the last few years (and playing plenty of good teams close), really hasn't been a Top 25-type team since Reich graduated.  Maybe Pancratz is that next great Chicago player and someone who can put them back in the national spotlight. 

Chicago hosts Wheaton Nov. 29 and travels to IWU Dec. 16.  Wash U plays at Augustana Nov. 26 and at IWU Dec. 9.  We'll get a few CCIW/UAA matchups in the non-conference season.

I agree with most of what Bob says here, although I would add that the UAA was pretty strong by its own standards last season. Carnegie Mellon was not as good as any of the CCIW's top four (and I took some heat from the Tartans fans in Posting Up's national rooms for saying that last season, too  ), but the UAA had several teams that would've slotted as midlevel CCIW teams last year; by my estimation, six of the eight UAA teams would've finished either fifth or sixth in the CCIW last year. Even the two laggards, Case Western Reserve and Emory, finished the year with twelve and eleven wins, respectively.

I travel down to the Ratner Center on the South Side quite a bit for Chicago games. The UAA is a fun league to watch; not as good as the CCIW, but we're spoiled here. It's still a very strong level of competition by D3 standards.

Chicago is going to be very strong in the backcourt with the return of Meyer and Woodhead and the addition of Pancratz, but they have a couple of serious holes to fill down low with the graduation of Clay Carmody and Jason Hicks. If Tom Reynolds (whom I'm guessing is the big guy that Pete said kept Anthony Simmons occupied) can step up his game and Mike McGrath can get some good production out of Nate Hainje and Jason Vismantas, the Maroons could have an outside shot at a UAA title -- although I see Wash U, NYU, Brandeis, and Rochester (in that order) also being strong as well.

[Gregory Sager]

[quoting Badger Warhawk]
The point guard is very good.  I understand he's a JuCo transfer and he should help your team.  He's very quick, handled the ball against pressure pretty well and he can penetrate making some nice passes to your post players.

Sheldon Evans.

One post player was a load to handle.  I don't know his name but he's about 6'3-4" and a wide body.  He was the frequent benefactor of your point guard's penetration assists and was very physical.  Very soft touch around the basket.

Stephano Jones, Evans' former teammate at Lincoln CC. Jones, who is listed at 6'4, 230, has been one of the pleasant surprises of fall practice for NPU.

One of the subs (#11) had a good three point shot.

Not sure who this is. Uriah Rice is listed as #11 on the roster, but I doubt that he's the player to whom Badger Warhawk was referring.

They didn't seem very tall and depth may be an issue.

I'm not sure that everybody who is going to be in the NPU rotation suited up for this scrimmage. Glen Woodside is still fighting some stiffness in his knee, and Jason Gordon suffered a pretty severe ankle sprain not too long ago. Sizewise, I think that the Vikings will start a quintet that goes 6'6 (215), 6'6 (175), 6'4 (190), 6'3 (200), and 5'11 (175). That's not terribly short as CCIW lineups go, but except for Gordon it's a bit on the thin side. My concerns are more with musculature than with height.

Thanks for the report on NP.  It makes me cautiously optimstic.  I remember in the past just getting smoked by UWW in thse scrimmages, so the fact that we stayed with them is very comforting.

That's the key matter for me as well. NPU has scrimmaged UWW every fall for about a decade now. When the Vikings have performed well, they've lost by six to eight points per half. When they've done poorly, they've lost by twenty or more per half. The latter is exactly what happened two years ago when the two teams last met for a prelim north of the border. Last year I think UWW won by eight and eleven in the two varsity halves, IIRC. As far as I can remember, NPU has never won even a single half against UWW in these scrimmages, so even winning the JV half on Saturday must've greatly cheered the NPU coaching staff.

I'm not jumping over the moon because NPU managed to hang with d3hoops.com's preseason #4 pick. It's only a scrimmage. Who knows how much Pat Miller was trying out new sets or new combinations of players for the Warhawks? The game intensity of a scrimmage does not translate into the regular season. Nevertheless, I'm with TJ on this one -- I'm cautiously optimistic after hearing about Saturday's performance. Badger Warhawk was impressed by the NPU defense, and in talking to the coaches it appears that they've very pleased with how the Vikes are looking defensively as well. I'm excited to see what the Park can do against Dominican, who also beat the Vikings like a drum in scrimmage play last season. The Stars return three starters who averaged 16, 11, and 10, and return three of last year's top backups as well. I hope that NPU will be at full strength by then -- and that the Vikes will stay healthy going into the first weekend down in Cincinnati at the Mt. St. Joe tourney.

[petemcb]

U of C looked like a bottom third CCIW team and, I'd guess, a top third UAA team. 

Are you suggesting that the contending teams in the UAA, teams like Rochester, Wash U., and Chicago, would be second-division teams in the CCIW?  That's quite a statement. 

You're making it more of a statement than I did.  I made no comment on Rochester or Wash U.  I've never even seen Rochester play, so I wouldn't comment on them.  I saw U of C on Friday night, and on Friday night they looked like they wouldn't finish ahead of NCC, Elmhurst, Augie, Wheaton, IWU, or probably Carthage.  In an 8 team conference, finishing in 7th or lower puts you in the bottom third.  That's all I was saying  -  no big head-to-head conference comparisons. 

[AndOne]

Hello all----New poster here.
I've been a "guest" reader for awhile now, and have a great deal of admiration for the high degree of D3 knowledge exhibited here. Many of the regular posters are quite impressive in not only their knowledge, but also in the manner in which they present their information, and make their arguments in support of their positions on various questions/issues.
The Midwest & CCIW are the areas I am most familiar with, so the majority of any posting I do will prob be here. 

[AndOne]

CCIW Coaches Poll:

Team - Points - First Place Votes 

North Central....47...5
Augustana........42...2
Elmhurst...........34 
Wheaton..........33...1 (huh?)
Ill Wesleyan......28 
Millikin..............18 
Carthage..........15 
North Park.........7 

I would think Augie would initially have the upper hand in the CCIW race. NCC's #1 ranking is unquestionably due to its fabulous front line of Simmons, Walton, & Krumtinger. However, the guards who will prob be starting (and who would start if the season began tomorrow), seniors Raymond Lawrence & Bob Valker, have virtually no real game experience, especially in conference play. This is evidenced by the fact that Vicario & Teising played 95% of the minutes at the guard positions last season. Valker was the first option at quard and was just starting to be a valuable asset when he sustained a basically season ending foot injury in an early season conference game at Augie. 

On the other hand, Augie has a pretty good front line itself, primarily featuring the Swetallas. I marvel at the competitiveness and explosiveness of Rose & Rorer. While neither is a high scorer, they prob don't have to be. Most of their points will no doubt be on putbacks of offensive rebounds, so shooting touch will not be much of a factor. I think they will make an awesome rebounding machine. There is also a good possibility of some other meaningful frontline contributors for Augie. Be that as it may, I feel the real difference in these 2 teams initially is the level of experience at the guard positions. Wessels, perhaps the best defensive guard in the conference, started all last year and made 3rd team all-conference. I have heard good things about Delp. Brusveen although, in my opinion, somewhat of a hothead and ballhog, can shoot and saw considerable action last year.
In summary, NCC has the initial superiority up front, whereas Augie has it in the backcourt. However , if the guards can't function in the offense, and get the ball to the bigs when they're open, the frontline advantage is effectively nullified. I should add that from what I have see4n and heard, Lawrence & Valker certainly do have the potential to step up to the challenge. 

[titan2000]

Starting lineup included Brian Schlemm, Milos Vukosavljevic, Bill Shemerdiak, Billy Jacklin and Joe Higgins.  Trey Bowens is out with a minor injury (should be back next week) and Higgins only played about 5 minutes total as he was ill.   Would have liked to seen Bowens with the starters (not sure who would have started between Jacklin and Shemerdiak) and some more time for Higgins. 

Schlemm and Milos (sticking with the first name)

I wonder if John Weiser is going to do the same thing, K-Mark? Poor John; between "Neb Franciskovic", "Bill Shemerdiak", and "Milos Vukosavljevic", his tongue is going to be in knots by Christmas. 

Are these all children of the immigrants who came to Chicago to remove asbestos from buildings in the late 1980's? 

The American dream for their children, especially if they can go to the Elite CCIW schools. 

[Titan Q]

North Central's situation reminds me a little of the 1995-96 Titans.  The 1994-95 IWU team - that lost in the Elite 8 to Steve Alford's Manchester team - graduated two really good guards, Chad Hutson and Mark Aubry, but returned an amazing frontline:

(1994-95 stats)
6-7 F Bryan Crabtree (13.6 ppg, 4.8 rpg)
6-6 F Chris Simich (20.0 ppg, 8.9 rpg)
6-7 C Jon Litwiller (11.0 ppg, 5.1 rpg)
Total = 44.6 ppg, 18.8 rpg

North Central returns:

(2005-06 stats)
6-5 F Daniel Walton (16.7 ppg, 7.1 rpg)
6-6 F Anthony Simmons (18.5 ppg, 6.6 rpg)
6-7 C Adam Krumtinger (10.3 ppg, 6.2 rpg)
Total = 45.5 ppg, 19.9 rpg


For his backcourt, Dennie Bridges turned to two seniors who were 2-year JV players and very end of the rotation guys as juniors in 1994-95 --  Brady Knight and T.J. Posey.  Knight and Posey were not flashy...they were just steady and effective.  They knew their roles.  Their stat lines their only starting season were:

Knight: 6.9 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 3.5 apg
Posey: 8.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 4.1 apg

IWU went 12-2 in the CCIW that season, went to the Final Four, and finished 28-3.  A tip-in by eventual national champion Rowan in the final seconds of the national semifinal game prevented the Titans from playing Hope for the title.  Knight and Posey did a tremendous job all season long of getting the ball to the 1995 M.O.P. (Simich) and the 1997 M.O.P. (Crabtree) and just playing smart and solid.

North Central just has to find a couple guys like Brady Knight and T.J. Posey, who will a) not hurt the Cardinals, b) get the ball to the horses, and c) make wide open kick-out shots.  As I have posted before, in Todd Raridon's offense - which is a lot like Dennie Bridges' - I think two new guards can step in and be fine.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Greg,

Nah, confusing 'preseason' with 'nonconference' is not my thing - unless it would really, really annoy you!

I promise that 10-year thing is retired, unless an irresistable situation arises.  (I just couldn't let und63 take the 'drinking the kool-aid' rap alone!)

[robertgoulet]

North Central just has to find a couple guys like Brady Knight and T.J. Posey, who will a) not hurt the Cardinals, b) get the ball to the horses, and c) make wide open kick-out shots.  As I have posted before, in Todd Raridon's offense - which is a lot like Dennie Bridges' - I think two new guards can step in and be fine.

I couldn't agree more, Q. In an offense like Raridon's where the ball is moved so much, I don't think you necessarily NEED guards who can penetrate and kick, or create their own shots. They need to make smart passes, play solid D, knock down open shots, and set-up the offense. I think that if that is all you're asking from your 1 and 2, you can trust your seniors to do it. I just don't know how far that can take them once they would get into post-season play. I've always been a firm believer that guard-play wins championships. I guess we can use this North Central team as a small test of that age-old debate.

[petemcb]

North Central just has to find a couple guys like Brady Knight and T.J. Posey, who will a) not hurt the Cardinals, b) get the ball to the horses, and c) make wide open kick-out shots.  As I have posted before, in Todd Raridon's offense - which is a lot like Dennie Bridges' - I think two new guards can step in and be fine.

I couldn't agree more, Q. In an offense like Raridon's where the ball is moved so much, I don't think you necessarily NEED guards who can penetrate and kick, or create their own shots. They need to make smart passes, play solid D, knock down open shots, and set-up the offense. I think that if that is all you're asking from your 1 and 2, you can trust your seniors to do it. I just don't know how far that can take them once they would get into post-season play. I've always been a firm believer that guard-play wins championships. I guess we can use this North Central team as a small test of that age-old debate.

I've read this opinion in a few posts lately, and I don't disagree with it, but on Friday night, I only saw one guard (Lawrence, #22) who looked able, and inclined, to do what you're asking of them at a CCIW level.  It will make for an interesting season.  I'd appreciate hearing from any NCC fans who are watching the development of the team over the next month or so since I've had such a limited and early view.  The guy I thought I'd see more of was the 5'10" or 5"11 freshman gunner.  The way I saw him knocking down shots this summer, I'd think his perimeter shooting could really open things up for the Big 3.

[Gregory Sager]

I've read this opinion in a few posts lately, and I don't disagree with it, but on Friday night, I only saw one guard (Lawrence, #22) who looked able, and inclined, to do what you're asking of them at a CCIW level.  It will make for an interesting season.  I'd appreciate hearing from any NCC fans who are watching the development of the team over the next month or so since I've had such a limited and early view.  The guy I thought I'd see more of was the 5'10" or 5"11 freshman gunner.  The way I saw him knocking down shots this summer, I'd think his perimeter shooting could really open things up for the Big 3.

The freshmen gunner to whom you're referring has got to be Reid Barringer, although he's always listed at 6'0. North Central has a pic of him on the Cardinals website. Is this him?

http://www.noctrl.edu/x16386.xml

Barringer was prominently featured in the two summer-league games that NPU played against the Cardinals.

[petemcb]

Yup, that's him.  He shot lights out in a couple of games I saw in Des Plaines.  I've got to believe he's got more to offer, even as a freshman, than some of the players I saw Friday.  At least opposing defenses would have to honor him, making it more difficult to collapse on NCC's  forwards.

[petemcb]

......but if he's 6', Bill O'Reilly is president of the Nancy Pelosi Fan Club.

[Mr. Ypsi]

......but if he's 6', Bill O'Reilly is president of the Nancy Pelosi Fan Club.

I thought Rush Limbaugh was the president if her fan club!