MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

Wheaton-EC promises to be a great game tomorrow, but if I'm an Elmhurst fan, I would be concerned over who will guard Raymond.  I would love to put Burks on him and let his long frame annoy the crafty guard, however you have to worry about Standard if that happens. 
As highly as I think of Sayre, guarding Raymond would be a tough, tough task.  It looks that either Pat Bacon will be getting a ton of playing time (and guard Raymond), or Elmhurst may play really big and put Burks at the 2 with Strzemp (who I still don't think will be on the floor more than 10 minutes), Ruch and Michael up front.   

The question of who EC should have guard Raymond is not really puzzling at all. As they say, and as any insightful coach or fan will tell you---speed kills. Accordingly, the natural choice is Brian Lee. Lee can use his quickness to stay with Raymond whether he is attempting to spot up by coming off a screen, or trying to create a shot off the dribble. To throw off his timing EC can occasionally change up on defense and put Burks or Bacon on Raymond for a few minutes. 

[petemcb]

I just spent 30 minutes reviewing all the messages over the past week over this debate thing.  As Moleman said to Apu "You stole 5 minutes of my life and I want them back..."  I'd say the same.

Congrats to Wheaton for a nice win against Freeman and the Titans.  Freeman reminds me a bit of Luke Moo in the way he can become unstoppable in certain games, and really charge up his team emotionally, providing needed leadership.

Wheaton really confuses me this year.  It will be interesing to see how they do over the next 3 games.  Can we be effective away from Kent Raymond?

NO!! Wheaton cannot win without Raymond - they run the offense around him, he creates off the dribble, hits the lane and dishes, has energy on defense in which he can stop dribble penetration.

Wheaton is NOTHING without Raymond only because they have no talented BIG guys and one smaller additional guard who cannot drive the lane but only hit 3's (anyone can do that)....if Raymond does not play, Wheaton is garbage!!

my 2 sense

Our House, I've heard it said that you get what you pay for.

If hitting 3's is so easy that "anyone can do that", which of the NCC guards has been opening things up for their vaunted big men with long range missiles?  Imagine NCC with Mohan  -  who I believe might be the guard you're referencing above. I'm thinking those 3's might have some significant value in Naperville this season.

Could the guard "referenced above" be Panner? To me, he has not been very impressive this year. Perhaps I just saw him when he was not at his best? Before the season began I heard and read about a new guard at Wheaton who was originally supposed to play at Texas, but then went to Wheaton instead. Based on what I've seen, he is kinda frail and not real fast, and appears to have no intention of driving the lane. I can't imagine him being able to play at Texas which has been a good D1 team in recent years.

Additionally--------IMHO, if you are good enough to play, and especially to start on ANY CCIW team, there is no way in heaven or hell that you can be considered "garbage." The CCIW is likely (some would say definately) the best DIII conference in the country. Even the guys who rarely play were stars in high school. I think saying someone has "not been very impressive" is a long way from calling someone "garbage." And, how would you feel if someone described you as "garbage" or worst yet, your son?

I suppose it could be Panner.  I figured Mohan just because he was a fairly consistent shooter for Wheaton last season, and had just had a good shooting game or two this season after a late start to his season.  The two times I have seen Panner, he has fit your description of him. 

To be clear, the "garbage" reference was not mine.  It was someone else's. So, to answer your question, no, I would not appreciate me or my son being referred to as "garbage".  Neither would I assess any player as "garbage"  -  CCIW or not.  I am aware of the reputation and stature of the conference, and I think the posters who know me will agree that I am more a fan of the conference than I am a fan of any one team in the conference. 

[petemcb]

Having said that, I'm told by people who have seen more games this season than I have that Panner has had some great shooting nights in games that I have missed, so I don't know whether the jury is in yet on him.  I seem to recall him having some big scoring nights over break.  It might take more than ten or fifteen games to get an accurate assessment of a player in his first year of collegiate basketball.

[AndOne]

North Central is hands down the worst arena I've been in in D3. 

Come on tj-----The Hanger is nostalgic. Besides, you can sit high up in the balconey and get a good overview of all the action! Not many places have all the ambience available at Merner Fieldhouse. Boiling in summer, freezing in winter---what more could you ask for?

[petemcb]

AndOne, is there ever any talk around campus of updating the place, or building a new one.  Whenever I've been there, I find myself liking the age of the place, the hallway with all the trophies and photos from the past, and even the old school entrance and bathrooms.  Then I walk into the gym, and it looks like it would be a cool place to see a game in, but I never find a seat that is a comfortable place to watch the game from.  Somebody mentioned earlier that for such a nice football/soccer stadium, and the cool little baseball park behind there, that it would be nice to upgrade/redo Merner.  Any talk?

[AndOne]

Having said that, I'm told by people who have seen more games this season than I have that Panner has had some great shooting nights in games that I have missed, so I don't know whether the jury is in yet on him.  I seem to recall him having some big scoring nights over break.  It might take more than ten or fifteen games to get an accurate assessment of a player in his first year of collegiate basketball.

I agree about the possibility of the jury still being out on Panner----As I indicated, I was just reporting based on how I have seen him play. However, someone--prob a Wheaton fan--must have felt my observation was to harsh as I got another negative Karma point. 

[AndOne]

pete----

To be clear-----

There was never any confusion on my part as to who used the word "garbage" to describe Wheaton. It was clear to me that individual was/is Our House.

I apologize for any wording or for the style of my post that may have led you or anyone else to believe I was attributing the "Wheaton garbage" terminology to you!

[Mr. Ypsi]

FWIW, re: Panner.

I've never seen him play, but he was my 5th round selection in the Fantasy League, and I'm quite delighted with his overall performance!

[petemcb]

And that coming from a Greenie......and a statistics-savvy one at that. 

[AndOne]

AndOne, is there ever any talk around campus of updating the place, or building a new one.  Whenever I've been there, I find myself liking the age of the place, the hallway with all the trophies and photos from the past, and even the old school entrance and bathrooms.  Then I walk into the gym, and it looks like it would be a cool place to see a game in, but I never find a seat that is a comfortable place to watch the game from.  Somebody mentioned earlier that for such a nice football/soccer stadium, and the cool little baseball park behind there, that it would be nice to upgrade/redo Merner.  Any talk?

RE: NCC Merner Fieldhouse-------

Actually, NCC has just unveiled plans to build a new fieldhouse. I believe it will be built east-southeast of Merner and contain 4 basketball courts surrounded by a new indoor track. Merner will be retro-fitted, including installation of permanent seats. I believe the seating will be something along the lines of the Wheaton gym seating. I also heard mentioned that part of the plan may be to cover over the existing balcony at Merner and turn the area into offices with windows overlooking the court. I have not heard of any timetable on this. The plans were recently on display during a high school track & field open house.   

[Pat Coleman]

North Central is hands down the worst arena I've been in in D3. 

Don't take a trip to New England in February.

Uh oh.

[petemcb]

AndOne, is there ever any talk around campus of updating the place, or building a new one.  Whenever I've been there, I find myself liking the age of the place, the hallway with all the trophies and photos from the past, and even the old school entrance and bathrooms.  Then I walk into the gym, and it looks like it would be a cool place to see a game in, but I never find a seat that is a comfortable place to watch the game from.  Somebody mentioned earlier that for such a nice football/soccer stadium, and the cool little baseball park behind there, that it would be nice to upgrade/redo Merner.  Any talk?

RE: NCC Merner Fieldhouse-------

Actually, NCC has just unveiled plans to build a new fieldhouse. I believe it will be built east-southeast of Merner and contain 4 basketball courts surrounded by a new indoor track. Merner will be retro-fitted, including installation of permanent seats. I believe the seating will be something along the lines of the Wheaton gym seating. I also heard mentioned that part of the plan may be to cover over the existing balcony at Merner and turn the area into offices with windows overlooking the court. I have not heard of any timetable on this. The plans were recently on display during a high school track & field open house.   

That would be awesome  -  comfortable seating, presumably better sight lines, and still the ambience of the old place.  That could become my new favorite place to see a CCIW game  -  especially accompanied by a pre-game meal at the sports bar on Maple (I think) that is across from another sports bar that is across from Barnes and Noble by campus.  They serve the best chili I've found anywhere, and it comes in XL and XXL.  Go for the XXL.  You won't regret it  -  although those around you might.

[OurHouse]

I just spent 30 minutes reviewing all the messages over the past week over this debate thing.  As Moleman said to Apu "You stole 5 minutes of my life and I want them back..."  I'd say the same.

Congrats to Wheaton for a nice win against Freeman and the Titans.  Freeman reminds me a bit of Luke Moo in the way he can become unstoppable in certain games, and really charge up his team emotionally, providing needed leadership.

Wheaton really confuses me this year.  It will be interesing to see how they do over the next 3 games.  Can we be effective away from Kent Raymond?

NO!! Wheaton cannot win without Raymond - they run the offense around him, he creates off the dribble, hits the lane and dishes, has energy on defense in which he can stop dribble penetration.

Wheaton is NOTHING without Raymond only because they have no talented BIG guys and one smaller additional guard who cannot drive the lane but only hit 3's (anyone can do that)....if Raymond does not play, Wheaton is garbage!!

my 2 sense

Our House, I've heard it said that you get what you pay for.

If hitting 3's is so easy that "anyone can do that", which of the NCC guards has been opening things up for their vaunted big men with long range missiles?  Imagine NCC with Mohan  -  who I believe might be the guard you're referencing above.  I'm thinking those 3's might have some significant value in Naperville this season.

You live and die by the 3 - if this guard cannot get to the hole and they don't have Raymond then who esle does Wheaton have that's worth talking about     

I rest my case....

[OurHouse]

I just spent 30 minutes reviewing all the messages over the past week over this debate thing.  As Moleman said to Apu "You stole 5 minutes of my life and I want them back..."  I'd say the same.

Congrats to Wheaton for a nice win against Freeman and the Titans.  Freeman reminds me a bit of Luke Moo in the way he can become unstoppable in certain games, and really charge up his team emotionally, providing needed leadership.

Wheaton really confuses me this year.  It will be interesing to see how they do over the next 3 games.  Can we be effective away from Kent Raymond?

NO!! Wheaton cannot win without Raymond - they run the offense around him, he creates off the dribble, hits the lane and dishes, has energy on defense in which he can stop dribble penetration.

Wheaton is NOTHING without Raymond only because they have no talented BIG guys and one smaller additional guard who cannot drive the lane but only hit 3's (anyone can do that)....if Raymond does not play, Wheaton is garbage!!

my 2 sense

Our House, I've heard it said that you get what you pay for.

If hitting 3's is so easy that "anyone can do that", which of the NCC guards has been opening things up for their vaunted big men with long range missiles?  Imagine NCC with Mohan  -  who I believe might be the guard you're referencing above. I'm thinking those 3's might have some significant value in Naperville this season.

Could the guard "referenced above" be Panner? To me, he has not been very impressive this year. Perhaps I just saw him when he was not at his best? Before the season began I heard and read about a new guard at Wheaton who was originally supposed to play at Texas, but then went to Wheaton instead. Based on what I've seen, he is kinda frail and not real fast, and appears to have no intention of driving the lane. I can't imagine him being able to play at Texas which has been a good D1 team in recent years.

Additionally--------IMHO, if you are good enough to play, and especially to start on ANY CCIW team, there is no way in heaven or hell that you can be considered "garbage." The CCIW is likely (some would say definately) the best DIII conference in the country. Even the guys who rarely play were stars in high school. I think saying someone has "not been very impressive" is a long way from calling someone "garbage." And, how would you feel if someone described you as "garbage" or worst yet, your son?

ANDONE:  I agree with you in that the CCIW NCAA DIII Basketball is the best in the nation - I will also say that when a team can only attract certain players because of NO athletic scholarships but more "willing to try it" will bring in "average players" or what I call "garbage" players. Stars in high school translates to stars in DIII? I don't think so....

There is alot of non-impressive players but some really great players too! The really good players are borderline D1 players minimumly, D2 - I'm just calling a diamond a diamond and if someone is NOT GOOD then that is just the way it is....just because a player plays does not mean he is good. It just means they are NOT good enough to be a really great player and considered non-impressive or a "garbage" player....

I don't mean to offend you but just telling it like it is - believe it or not, I really like this game 

[AndOne]

Our---

No, stars in HS does not automatically transfer to stars in DIII. Just saying they are all good players coming in. Some of course stand out immediately. Some get better. Some stay the same or decline.

Just because DIII schools can't give athletic scholarships does NOT mean that thet can't and don't attract top players.

Players who don't play are bench players, substitutes, or any number of other names, but NOBODY on any team is a "garbage" player due to lack of playing time.

A long standing basketball term is "garbage time." To me, this means scoring points when the outcome of the game has been decided. Garbage POINTS are made then, but NOT by "garbage players."

You don't offend me when you refer to someone as a "garbage" player. However, depending on that player's perspective, you certainly could be offending that young man and possibly his family

I have referred to various players as "soft," a "ball hog," and even a "dud." I've been dinged for using those words. I can never be accused of not giving my (strong) opinion. I just think using the word "garbage" is going one step to far.
Think about it.

P.S.-----I have no doubt that you "really like this game" as you said. The players are what makes the game---NOT us posters. So, if u like the game, I'm just suggesting u be just a little nicer to the players who make it the game u like so much!