MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

OurHouse,

While I'm not going to make the obviously absurd suggestion that the average d3 player is as skilled as the average d1 player, I'm nevertheless going to reject much of your basic premise.  Throughout d3 (and especially in conferences like the CCIW, WIAC, etc.) there are dozens (probably hundreds) of players who turned down legitimate d1 scholarship offers.  There may well be an equal number wo BECAME legitimate d1 -quality players later (after the growth spurt, the filling out the weight, etc., that got them overlooked coming out of high school).

Those who are simply hoping for the NBA are unlikely to go d3.  But for STUDENT-athletes, there are innumerable reasons why a player with choices might nonetheless choose d3 - religious reasons, family tradition, nearby location, a special bond with a coach, academic offerings best done at the particular school, desire to attend a smaller school, etc., etc., etc.  d3 is most definitely NOT just the rubbish heap for those who couldn't go d1.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

I just gave Ypsi positive karma.  What's happening to me?

[Jim Matson]

Panner will have to play his best on Saturday.  The times I've seen him, I wasn't too impressed.  He has talent and energy, but too often his thinking is a couple of seconds behind his physical play.

[79jaybird]

I see there has been a lot of analyzing the various players to be performing Saturday at King Arena.  IMO,  it is pretty simple.  The team that hits their shots and executes, and plays aggresive defense is going to win.  While EC has been riding high, I am concerned with their number of turnovers and "off the ball" fouls.
Who does Wheaton have to guard the 2 big guys for EC inside?

[WahooThunder]

I just spent 30 minutes reviewing all the messages over the past week over this debate thing.  As Moleman said to Apu "You stole 5 minutes of my life and I want them back..."  I'd say the same.

Congrats to Wheaton for a nice win against Freeman and the Titans.  Freeman reminds me a bit of Luke Moo in the way he can become unstoppable in certain games, and really charge up his team emotionally, providing needed leadership.

Wheaton really confuses me this year.  It will be interesing to see how they do over the next 3 games.  Can we be effective away from Kent Raymond?

NO!! Wheaton cannot win without Raymond - they run the offense around him, he creates off the dribble, hits the lane and dishes, has energy on defense in which he can stop dribble penetration.

Wheaton is NOTHING without Raymond only because they have no talented BIG guys and one smaller additional guard who cannot drive the lane but only hit 3's (anyone can do that)....if Raymond does not play, Wheaton is garbage!!

my 2 sense

Our House, I've heard it said that you get what you pay for.

If hitting 3's is so easy that "anyone can do that", which of the NCC guards has been opening things up for their vaunted big men with long range missiles?  Imagine NCC with Mohan  -  who I believe might be the guard you're referencing above. I'm thinking those 3's might have some significant value in Naperville this season.

Could the guard "referenced above" be Panner? To me, he has not been very impressive this year. Perhaps I just saw him when he was not at his best? Before the season began I heard and read about a new guard at Wheaton who was originally supposed to play at Texas, but then went to Wheaton instead. Based on what I've seen, he is kinda frail and not real fast, and appears to have no intention of driving the lane. I can't imagine him being able to play at Texas which has been a good D1 team in recent years.

Additionally--------IMHO, if you are good enough to play, and especially to start on ANY CCIW team, there is no way in heaven or hell that you can be considered "garbage." The CCIW is likely (some would say definately) the best DIII conference in the country. Even the guys who rarely play were stars in high school. I think saying someone has "not been very impressive" is a long way from calling someone "garbage." And, how would you feel if someone described you as "garbage" or worst yet, your son?

I missed most of the original context here, but I don't know why anyone would be ripping on Panner right now.  He has been one of Wheaton's most consistent players over the past several games and probably their best in the Augie game.  He rebounds well for a guard, shoots well from the perimeter, plays outstanding defense, moves well with out the ball and is a pretty good finisher around the basket, which is actually where he scores a lot of points off of cuts across the lane.  As for Wheaton being "garbage without Raymond," consider the fact that they went 3-0 while he was out of the line up and during that period Panner averaged 15 points and was named to the All-Tournament team at the College of Staten Island's "Tournament of Heroes."  Also, in case you're talking about Mohan, he is also more valuable than just his outside shot, he is a hard-nosed player who handles the ball and plays solid defense.  Oh, and he also shoots 90% from the free throw line and gets there often.  And as for the value of those threes, well anyone who watched the Illinois Wesleyan game knows that he is capable of being a game-changing scorer.  That said, of course Wheaton's offense runs through Raymond, but very few D3 teams ever have have more than 2 or 3 All-conference caliber players.  Their other guards play their roles well as do Standard, Fiddler, and Wiele, and they are all capable of stepping up when needed, as they proved in New York, although it was against competition that was not exactly CCIW-caliber.

And for the record, Panner is just the 10th freshman to start under Coach Harris, so 130 CCIW wins say he's just a little bit better than "frail and not real fast."  Here's the rest of that list by the way:

Andy Wiele
Kent Raymond
Martin Trimiew
Joel Kolmodin
Kevin Blomstrom
Dwight Nelson
Matt Trenz
Wesley Pitts
Nate Frank

Not bad company.  So lay off and save your talk for when you've seen more of him.

[WahooThunder]

I see there has been a lot of analyzing the various players to be performing Saturday at King Arena.  IMO,  it is pretty simple.  The team that hits their shots and executes, and plays aggresive defense is going to win.  While EC has been riding high, I am concerned with their number of turnovers and "off the ball" fouls.
Who does Wheaton have to guard the 2 big guys for EC inside?

I agree with your assessment.  It will be interesting to see how coach Harris matches up against the bigs.  Michael Fiddler did a great job on Zach Freeman on Wednesday and virtually shut him down in the second half.  Andy Wiele will have to step up his presence on the defensive end.  Phill Denham also, though a little undersized, played pretty well on Wednesday off the bench and will need to do so again.

[Titan Q]

I see there has been a lot of analyzing the various players to be performing Saturday at King Arena.  IMO,  it is pretty simple.  The team that hits their shots and executes, and plays aggresive defense is going to win.  While EC has been riding high, I am concerned with their number of turnovers and "off the ball" fouls.
Who does Wheaton have to guard the 2 big guys for EC inside?

I agree with your assessment.  It will be interesting to see how coach Harris matches up against the bigs.  Michael Fiddler did a great job on Zach Freeman on Wednesday and virtually shut him down in the second half.  Andy Wiele will have to step up his presence on the defensive end.  Phill Denham also, though a little undersized, played pretty well on Wednesday off the bench and will need to do so again.

The Wheaton perimeter defense is what contained Zach Freeman Wednesday.  IWU's guards couldn't get the Titans into their offense and the ball to Freeman in the 2nd half.   I think most who attended the game would agree that anytime Freeman got the ball, there wasn't much the Thunder could do to stop him from scoring or getting to the line. 

Wheaton will have enormous trouble guarding Elmhurst's big guys, but Elmhurst will have just as much trouble handling Raymond.  Should be a fun game.

[Titan Q]

OurHouse,

While I'm not going to make the obviously absurd suggestion that the average d3 player is as skilled as the average d1 player, I'm nevertheless going to reject much of your basic premise.  Throughout d3 (and especially in conferences like the CCIW, WIAC, etc.) there are dozens (probably hundreds) of players who turned down legitimate d1 scholarship offers. 

Chuck, if you are talking about student-athletes who turned down actual D1 scholarship offers -- and not just got pursued a little by a D1 or maybe asked to walk-on -- that number is lower than you are suggesting.

Of last year's 4 CCIW All-Americans, I think Adam Dauksas is the only one that had a true offer (Chicago St).  Keelan Amelianovich did not, and neither did Rick Harrigan or Chris Martin.

Of this year's stars, Zach Freeman had an offer from Murray State and several others who probably would have had he not made it clear that he and his bother were a package deal (Indiana State and UW-Green Bay to name a couple).  I wouldn't be surprised if Kent Raymond had a few offers, but I've never actually heard what schools those would have been from.  But that is about it -- maybe 2 this year (plus of course the few D1 transfers, like Lenoir and Schlemm).

Now, if you are talking about players who the D1's missed on (like Amelianovich or Brent Ruch) or players who developed into being good enough to play D1, that is a different story.  The CCIW has several of those every year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Q,

I certainly didn't mean to imply 'dozens or hundreds' per top conference, if that got mistakenly implied.  Throughout all of d3, I'd be surprised if the number was much lower than I suggested.

However, my main emphasis should have been on the latter point - those who simply got mistakenly overlooked or who developed into legitimate d1 players.  I think successful d3 coaches have a knack for identifying 'late bloomers' that d1 coaches may just not dare take the risk on.  Was it Michael Harper who grew like 7 inches after high school?  And even going back to Jack Sikma (IWU and CCIW, though NOT d3 ) whom Kansas and other major powers didn't notice until Dennie Bridges had already won him over.

[Titan Q]

Q,

I certainly didn't mean to imply 'dozens or hundreds' per top conference, if that got mistakenly implied.  Throughout all of d3, I'd be surprised if the number was much lower than I suggested.

I was pretty sure that is what you meant, and I still think you are overstating it.  In all of Division III, I'd guess maybe 20-25 players (that had a true D1 scholarship offer).   Now, I guess 25 can be "dozens", but certainly not "hundreds."

That is just my best guess.

[sac]

There are 3 current MIAA players who had D1 scholarships and at least 2 others who were on D1 teams.

Marcus VanderHeide-----Canisius to Hope
Derek Van Solkema-----Eastern Michigan to Hope
Desmond Young-----Eastern Michigan to Saginaw Valley to Adrian

Tim Partridge------College of Charleston to Hope, don't know about scholarship

Robbie Clark-----Cleveland State to Albion, walk on

The MIAA's best player in the past 3 decades turned down D1 to attend Calvin.

[Pat Coleman]

I was pretty sure that is what you meant, and I still think you are overstating it.  In all of Division III, I'd guess maybe 20-25 players (that had a true D1 scholarship offer).   Now, I guess 25 can be "dozens", but certainly not "hundreds."

That is just my best guess.

I tend to agree with Q's estimate.

[Jim Matson]

I hadn't heard that Raymond had any offers from D1 schools...just some interest.  Anyone know the facts on this?

[Mr. Ypsi]

I yield to the Guru and the HoFer on the rejected d1 scholarship offers.  (Though another HoFer, sac, seems to lend support to my guesstimate if d1 scholarship transfers are included; I hesitate to include them since usually - though certainly not always - they are transfers because the saw 'the writing on the wall' about their future in d1.)

Where I will (so far, at least!) hold my ground is on the overlooked and/or 'late bloomers'.  I'm fairly confident that there ARE hundreds of d3 players who by sophomore or junior year are making some d1 coaches wonder "how'd I miss HIM?"  Some shot up, some bulked up, some just got better (and some were probably always legit but just got overlooked because of a tiny school, a bad team, weak opponents, or whatever).

[Gregory Sager]

Does North Park have season tickets? 
I ask because unless they are selling about 1000 tickets in advance, only to have most of those people not show, there is no way their attendance figures have been accurate.  If there were 500 people at the EC game, I would be surprised.  The 1600 figure leads me to believe some attendance inflation is going on.
Perhaps they are taking a page out of the Nixon-Kennedy election and stuffing the ballot box in hopes of living up to that vote early, vote often Chicago moniker.

No, NPU does not sell season tickets. The folks at the table were being a bit generous with the attendance estimate, and that's putting it mildly. I'm pretty good at eyeballing the crowd in the crackerbox (years of experience), and I'd say that there were about 625 people there on Wednesday night. When the four sideline sections are full, it's a crowd of 800. If the stage seating is full as well, you'll get what is the proper max capacity, SRO, figure: 1,100.

This year's NPU media guide lists the capacity of the crackerbox as 1,800. They must've come up with that figure when the Junior Vikings youth basketball camp was in session, because the only way you can fit 1,800 people in the stands is if they're all prepubescent children.

The media guide also says that the facility is called "Carlson Gym", an insidious myth that has cropped up in recent years due to the fact that the adjacent classroom building is called Carlson Tower and the NPU student section is called the Carlson Crazies. NPU's home court is not named Carlson Gym. It is, simply and generically, the North Park University Gymnasium.