MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

rknuppel, I think it's true most on here would say they would rather start building their team with Freeman instead of Ruch.

No, I'd rather have Ruch. He's only a sophomore, and Freeman's a senior.

[Gregory Sager]

Question 2---Should MOP be based only on what players do in the conference or should it be based on the TOTAL SEASON LONG performance of t6he players?

My vote is for the ENTIRE season. I think thats how a player should be measured.

Schedules vary too much.  Some teams play great non-conference schedules, some do not.  The best measure is CCIW-only play.

Brian Schlemm had 36 vs Grinnell...not everyone got to play Grinnell.  (Grinnell is good this year, but we all realize how stats are skewed in that game.)  David Noell (Wheaton) had 22 vs Principia (1-16 overall, 1-11 SLIAC).

Exactly. That's why MOP should be a CCIW-games-only award. Thing is, it's not spelled out in the CCIW men's basketball sports guide as to which games should be taken into consideration by the coaches when they put together the All-CCIW team and name the MOP. For all we know, some are voting based upon the entire season, while others are voting based only upon CCIW games. Heck, there may even be coaches whose votes are based only upon games that they saw with their own eyes.

(Incidentally, it's not actually called the "Most Outstanding Player" award. It's called the Fred Young CCIW Outstanding Player Award. No superlative included.)

As far as conference awards are concerned, my biggest gripe by far is with the Coach of the Year award. According to the rules as spelled out in the CCIW men's basketball sports guide, it's given to the coach of the team that wins the automatic bid to the tourney:

http://www.cciw.org/pdf/sports_guides/MensBasketballSportsGuide.doc -- section V, subsection E, on page 4.

Obviously, the league ignored the rules last year and gave the award instead to the head coach of the CCIW champion, Grey Giovanine, rather than to the head coach of the CCIW automatic bid winner, Todd Raridon:

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/05_06_MBBallconf.htm.

Either way, I don't like it. It would be bad enough if it was a default award given to the coach of the team that won the CCIW title, providing no latitude whatsoever for interpretation and context. I'd argue that a coach whose team was picked seventh but finished second, or a coach whose team was picked eighth but finished third, often deserves the award more than would a coach whose team won the title but was picked to win it in the preseason poll. But this criterion as stated in the rules is worse; instead of the championship coach winning the award, it goes to the coach of the team that wins the CCIW tourney. That doesn't seem right at all.

My guess is that the league has decided to keep the decision out of the hands of the coaches because they can't be trusted with selecting the standout from amongst their peers due to interpersonal rivalries. I think that that's silly. Dispose of the automatic winner for the Coach of the Year award, and let the coaches choose their standard-bearer from amongst themselves.

Aside from that, though, why isn't the league going by its own rule as to the COTY award?

[Gregory Sager]

One other thing you have to look at when deciding a MVP, MOP, etc.  is this.  Where would the team be without him (the candidate)?
I think Ruch is a great player and think he is a first team AC candidate.  However, I do think Elmhurst would be close to where they are at, without him.

I don't. Like AO, I think the 'jays wouldn't be nearly as successful as they've been this season without Ruch.

Also, Ruch is more than a mere All-CCIW first-team candidate. He's close to being a shoo-in (note the correct spelling, people ). He's not only fifth in scoring and first in rebounds, he's leading the league in rebounds by a full carom per game over Zach Freeman. That's a huge disparity. And his current .698 FG % gives him a serious shot at breaking the all-time conference record held by Illinois Wesleyan's Brent Niebrugge (.687 in 1998). Ruch needs only 14 more FG attempts over his five remaining CCIW games to qualify.

IWU would not even be close to where they are currently at without Freeman, who has been the backbone of the team all year.

Uh, jaybird, you do realize that "where they are currently at" is last place in the CCIW, right? Was this your attempt at faint praise for Zach Freeman?

Wheaton has Standard, Wiele, and Panner up and coming, which makes me think they would still be close to their current setting without Raymond.

I couldn't disagree more. While I do not agree with our friend Our House, who would consign the non-Raymond element of the Wheaton lineup to the tender mercies of Waste Management, there is no question whatsoever that Wheaton wouldn't be within a country mile of a tie for second place in the CCIW without Kent Raymond.

4. I believe Walton who is 8th in scoring, tied for 3rd in rebounds, 3rd in FG%, T9th in assists, T5th in steals, T5th in blocks, and first in def. rebounds is one of the top 5 ALL AROUND players in the league.

I agree, AO. Dan Walton is my favorite non-Viking in the league right now, mostly because he's a self-made overachiever rather than a former prep blue-chip who came into the league with a lot of hype.

Of course, I sincerely hope that Walton falls flat on his keester, metaphorically speaking, on Wednesday night in the crackerbox.

[diehardfan]

I agree, AO. Dan Walton is my favorite non-Viking in the league right now, mostly because he's a self-made overachiever rather than a former prep blue-chip who came into the league with a lot of hype.

Of course, I sincerely hope that Walton falls flat on his keester, metaphorically speaking, on Wednesday night in the crackerbox.

I've been trying to hype Walton for like two years. It was "Simmons this and Simmons that..." and I'm like.... uh, hello, Walton was definitely the one that won that game for you guys....

Anyhow... I think the fact that I used like twice in the above statement indicates that it's time for me to go to bed!

[BRLHSFAN]

I have a problem with quoting on here, so I'm just going to reply and you'll be able to tell what I'm replying to.

I've known Brent Ruch since he was about 6 yrs old which is longer than jaybird has known his family so I can speak about the type of person Brent is and ALWAYS has been.  He DOES NOT care about individual awards!!! Yes they are nice and a bonus and he'd accept them, BUT that's not what is first and foremost in his mind!  He is a TEAM player and would rather have his TEAM do well than to boast his own stats or awards or anything.  Anyone who knows him at all knows this about him!  You could see him Saturday night at IWU greeting everyone who came to watch him from his high school.  He shook their hands and thanked them for coming out to watch and then he only scored 12 pts that night?  He could probably have had more pts than that but that's not what matters to him.  He sat with some of his old friends for a little bit during the girls game and visited but he spoke and shook hands with almost every parent of his classmates and friends also.  There were people there who's children didn't go to school with Brent because they graduated before him, but they were there to support him.  His junior high coach was there, his baseball coach was there, all of these things speak to the character of Brent and the respect he has for everyone and the respect that everyone has for him.  That's saying alot for a kid his age to have the respect from all of his classmates and friends and the community that he came from.  We also sit at the computer and listen to his games broadcast because we care about how he is doing.  Brent is an amazing kid and deserves the respect and any awards he receives, but that's not his top priority at all!!! Brent cares about the well being of the TEAM!! Just ask his coach at EC, I've heard him talk about how unselfish he is as well!!!

[AndOne]

I have a problem with quoting on here, so I'm just going to reply and you'll be able to tell what I'm replying to.

I've known Brent Ruch since he was about 6 yrs old which is longer than jaybird has known his family so I can speak about the type of person Brent is and ALWAYS has been.  He DOES NOT care about individual awards!!! Yes they are nice and a bonus and he'd accept them, BUT that's not what is first and foremost in his mind!  He is a TEAM player and would rather have his TEAM do well than to boast his own stats or awards or anything.  Anyone who knows him at all knows this about him!  You could see him Saturday night at IWU greeting everyone who came to watch him from his high school.  He shook their hands and thanked them for coming out to watch and then he only scored 12 pts that night?  He could probably have had more pts than that but that's not what matters to him.  He sat with some of his old friends for a little bit during the girls game and visited but he spoke and shook hands with almost every parent of his classmates and friends also.  There were people there who's children didn't go to school with Brent because they graduated before him, but they were there to support him.  His junior high coach was there, his baseball coach was there, all of these things speak to the character of Brent and the respect he has for everyone and the respect that everyone has for him.  That's saying alot for a kid his age to have the respect from all of his classmates and friends and the community that he came from.  We also sit at the computer and listen to his games broadcast because we care about how he is doing.  Brent is an amazing kid and deserves the respect and any awards he receives, but that's not his top priority at all!!! Brent cares about the well being of the TEAM!! Just ask his coach at EC, I've heard him talk about how unselfish he is as well!!!

BRLHSFAN-----

Its nice that Ruch is an outstanding person in addition to being an outstanding basketball player. I didn't page back thru all the posts, but I don't seem to remember anyone disputing that or doing anything other than singing Mr. Ruch's praises. The tone of your post seems to indicate you feel someone had something less than stellar praise for him. However, as I said, I don't remember any criticism of the young man in any way, shape, or form. I think we all buy into the fact he is a good guy.

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but if you feel someone dissed him unfairly, call that person out and ask him to support anything negative he might have said.

[AndOne]

4. I believe Walton who is 8th in scoring, tied for 3rd in rebounds, 3rd in FG%, T9th in assists, T5th in steals, T5th in blocks, and first in def. rebounds is one of the top 5 ALL AROUND players in the league.

I agree, AO. Dan Walton is my favorite non-Viking in the league right now, mostly because he's a self-made overachiever rather than a former prep blue-chip who came into the league with a lot of hype.

Of course, I sincerely hope that Walton falls flat on his keester, metaphorically speaking, on Wednesday night in the crackerbox.

Greg-----

I'll lay you odds Mr. Walton will not be laying any eggs tonight.
NCC will have to deal with several other issues more likely than that happening. First of all, they'll need to step up their perimeter defense to prevent Capalbo and others from reigning bombs as in the first meeting. On the Interior, they will have to play help defense and deny the baseline so as to prevent drives to the basket for easy layups. Lastly, they will need to counter the athleticism and scoring punch delivered by the NPU bench in the first game.

[BRLHSFAN]

tuvwxyz said that Ruch cares if he wins the solo awards.  It's back a couple pages and they were replying to jaybirds post that Brent would rather have his team do well than to win solo awards.  I am just trying to point out that that's not the type of person that Brent is.  He does NOT care about solo awards and I was just trying to point out that I know this better than those posting on this board because I've known him so long and watched him grow up.

[Titan Q]

IWU would not even be close to where they are currently at without Freeman, who has been the backbone of the team all year.

Uh, jaybird, you do realize that "where they are currently at" is last place in the CCIW, right? Was this your attempt at faint praise for Zach Freeman?

Wheaton has Standard, Wiele, and Panner up and coming, which makes me think they would still be close to their current setting without Raymond.

I couldn't disagree more. While I do not agree with our friend Our House, who would consign the non-Raymond element of the Wheaton lineup to the tender mercies of Waste Management, there is no question whatsoever that Wheaton wouldn't be within a country mile of a tie for second place in the CCIW without Kent Raymond.

The conversations regarding who his impacted his team the most - as it applies to the M.O.P. debate - are premature in my opinion.  There are 5 games left for most of the CCIW teams.  Kent Raymond's team has not yet played @ Augustana, @ Elmhurst, @ Carthage, and @ IWU.  Zach Freeman's team, on the other hand, has already played @ Augustana, @ Elmhurst, @ Carthage, and @ Wheaton.  We're are dealing with unbalanced schedules up to this point.

The M.O.P. discussion is fun, but let's not get into the discussion of who made the most impact on his team's place in the standings until all 14 games are played.

[sac]

When a great future PRO like Sikma scores 2272 ending in '77 it kinda boggles my mind (how 'bout anyone else's?) that Bill Warden scored 2249 for North Central ENDING IN 1955! This of course was before the 3 point shot and when basketball was played at a MUCH slower pace!

Thats sort of a myth, alot of schools all-time high scoring teams come from the 60's.  It was in the late 70's/early 80's when the slow down 4 corners offense started coming into vogue.

I'm not sure the 3 point shot has really significantly increased scoring vs history..........might be a nice research project for someone.

[Pat Coleman]

Of all the things SIDs can do to trump up bogus publicity for their programs, this is hardly one of them. Not worth your anguish.

[markerickson]

North Park runs a variation of the four-corner offense.  Four guys moving slightly, but far from the baset.

Did scoring increase after the introduction of the shot clock?

[79jaybird]

tuvwxyz-- Brlhsfan and I have met many times at Elmhurst games.  Brlhsfan knows the Ruchs much more than I have as he points out.  My observations are from watching him play and our interaction this year only.  My point is/was that Brent cares about his team, more than himself.  This is a refreshing thought after looking at all the "I" in the MLB/NBA/NFL, etc.
Big night of CCIW action today.  Wheaton/Augie  Carthage/EC  wow!    I know the Redmen are going to be thinking "revenge" this evening at RAF hall, as will Wheaton vs. Augie. 
In the Elmhurst/Carthage game I am looking at 2 things  A) Elmhurst has to pound it inside to Ruch and Michael  B) stay out of early foul trouble!
Carthage has to allow their speedy forwards to open up the game, and get open looks.  I haven't seen Carthage play recently, but the game vs. EC in Kenosha, the Redmen were not real "fast" that night.  I know they are playing better know and clicking on all cylinders, which is why I think tonight is a dandy of a matchup.
Wheaton/Augie... no offense to Augie, but I am pulling for a Wheaton W tonight, combined with an EC win, and we would be tied in the L column with 3.  So  Raymond, have a monster game tonight! 

[robberki]

As someone who cares immensely about individual awards and recognition, I would be happy to accept any and all awards on Ruch's behalf.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I wonder if any of the North Park regulars could tell me what happened to Sheldon Evans, the point guard who looked so impressive early in the season.

Evans started 11 of the 13 games he played in and still leads the Vikings with 40 total assists.

Just like to know why he left the team and/or left school?

Thanks

MW 70:3