MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I knew coming into the game that Elias Washington would be a factor for Wesleyan, simply because of his track background.

Coming into the game, Elias Washington had played 6 minutes all season long, including a combined zero minutes in IWU's previous 3 (vs Augustana, vs Wheaton, @ Millikin).  I'm not sure how you knew that, but maybe you should buy a lottery ticket.

It wasn't a stab in the dark on my part. It was simple deduction. The Titans, by your own admission, have a backcourt that lacks quickness and has had a lot of trouble with mobile opponents. And Ron Rose himself said in the Pantagraph that NPU's athleticism created serious problems for the Titans in the first game down in Bloomington. Who better to counteract that than the former track star who finished seventh in the state in the high jump last spring?

Besides, we're talking about a 3-9 team playing a 5-8 team in a game that had nothing at stake but pride for either squad. It was the perfect situation for a coach to play a hunch and give a seldom-used player extended minutes.

I'm not blowing smoke here. I really did think that Elias Washington would see a lot of action. But, as I said last night, I had no idea that he would do so well against the Vikings.

[Gregory Sager]

I wouldn't classify the play of NCC as amazing---I would say they are finally playing up to their lofty pre-season expectations---After all, they were the pick to win the league

It most certainly does qualify as amazing. You don't just go out and consecutively beat three nationally-ranked teams at the drop of a hat when you're 4-6 and your back is against the wall in terms of being eliminated from conference tournament contention. Furthermore, when you have to do it with your sixth man on the sidelines in a walking boot, and you have no big men other than the ones in your starting lineup, that uphill climb becomes even steeper.

The preseason poll stopped being relevant a long time ago. The North Central we saw for most of the season was the team that many of us suspected they might turn out to be, coaches poll be damned -- a team with a very inexperienced and suspect backcourt. The North Central that we've seen over the past two weeks has been a team that has managed to find a way to rise above those inherent limitations.

Give NCC credit, Late Nite. The Cardinals have earned it.

No argument with most of what you say here, but the one thing that stands out to me is the very positive tone talking about a team that finished 5-9 in the conference.

Which aspect of the "very positive tone" did you enjoy best? My comparing them to a botulism-afflicted middle school team after Saturday's game? The way that I tore the Vikings a new orifice for their inability to play defense in their final two games (including their most important game of the year last Wednesday)? Or my 1,342nd hand-wringing jeremiad over the fact that NPU has such a serious problem with closing out tight games? That's the problem with being such a pollyanna: I have a hard time figuring out which of my many compliments of the Vikings people are talking about at any given moment.

The reality of the CCIW and Division III basketball in general is that it is usually 1-2 players that separate the top teams from the bottom.  In my opinion, there is little difference between the 3-8 players on most teams (although having depth with size helps).

I think you could shuffle 1-2 of those kids on each team in the league and the standings would basically stay the same.

I don't necessarily agree, but if you're willing to state your case in depth (with examples) I'll certainly hear you out.

While I think its true that the level of player in the CCIW outside of the top 1-2 is fairly even, I would argue the consistency of winning is with the teams that have experienced players and continuity of coaching. Look at IWU last year. Sr laden team with a consistency in philosophy for several years (plenty of talent helped). Look at Augie, Coach G has been stomping the sidelines for several years now and he now is in the position of "reloading" vs "rebuilding". NCC is approaching that. Wheaton's Coach Harris is the constant while the players change radically. the best teams are going to have consistency in their coaching and a steady stream of talent coming through the ranks.

In football wheaton has had the same coaching staff basically for 20+ yrs and over the past 10 or so they have consistently been winners.

In North Park I see a coach who is beginning to get the right kind of players and they are starting to figure out how to compete in a tough league. the improvement Greg reflects on is very real and logically I would expect NPU to be in the conf tourney next year. (i think they are headed in the right direction in football too after dozens of years as cellar dwellers.)

I agree with Usee's basic premise. If I can paraphrase him, I think he's saying that teams can be evaluated upon the basis of a season; programs are evaluated over a greater length of time, and the signs of progress within a program are measured not only in wins and losses but in coaching continuity, player development, improved recruitment and retention, increased competitiveness, etc.

It's in those areas that I see NPU's program improving. It's the team that fell short in a lot of ways this year, even though it was certainly a vast improvement over the last few editions of the Vikings. In other words, I like the long-term view of North Park men's basketball. The short-term view, as I said last night, left a bittersweet taste.

[diehardfan]

DiehardFan, I remember the days when you came up to Carthage to cheer Wheaton to victory.  I hope all the CCIW posters can make it to K-town Wednesday night.   

I remember those days too, but not fondly. In my first trip up there Kevin Blomstrom made a shot to send the game into overtime, and then we proceeded to lose. A season that could have ended 7-7 ended up 6-8. And well, we've never won there that I've seen. And, since I don't get to be there tomorrow, I assume we'll win. Sorta like how we've beaten IWU pretty much every time I've not been able to make it to a game.

From what I've seen of my team recently, Wheaton has a tendency to play well when 1) they feel underrated and/or 2) they are the underdog. Since Wheaton isn't ranked, and has so much to lose, I hope they bring their A game. Now if someone would just wrongly call my guys garbage again, we'll really be lighting some fires.

[TitanBacker]

Great to hear about Elias Washington for the Titans!!  I remember seeing him play in high school (i'm a few years older than him) and he was/is something special.  Hopefully the Titans future outlook is looking better!!

[usee]

While I think its true that the level of player in the CCIW outside of the top 1-2 is fairly even, I would argue the consistency of winning is with the teams that have experienced players and continuity of coaching. Look at IWU last year. Sr laden team with a consistency in philosophy for several years (plenty of talent helped). Look at Augie, Coach G has been stomping the sidelines for several years now and he now is in the position of "reloading" vs "rebuilding". NCC is approaching that. Wheaton's Coach Harris is the constant while the players change radically. the best teams are going to have consistency in their coaching and a steady stream of talent coming through the ranks.

In football wheaton has had the same coaching staff basically for 20+ yrs and over the past 10 or so they have consistently been winners.

In North Park I see a coach who is beginning to get the right kind of players and they are starting to figure out how to compete in a tough league. the improvement Greg reflects on is very real and logically I would expect NPU to be in the conf tourney next year. (i think they are headed in the right direction in football too after dozens of years as cellar dwellers.)

I agree with Usee's basic premise. If I can paraphrase him, I think he's saying that teams can be evaluated upon the basis of a season; programs are evaluated over a greater length of time, and the signs of progress within a program are measured not only in wins and losses but in coaching continuity, player development, improved recruitment and retention, increased competitiveness, etc.

It's in those areas that I see NPU's program improving. It's the team that fell short in a lot of ways this year, even though it was certainly a vast improvement over the last few editions of the Vikings. In other words, I like the long-term view of North Park men's basketball. The short-term view, as I said last night, left a bittersweet taste.

Gregory,

You said it better than I with less words. I agree.

[augie22]

MOP??

[TheHerr]

I see Elmhurst has dropped down to #14, but does anyone know the regional rankings?

[augie22]

Midwest Region
1. Augustana 19-4 19-3, 10.591
2. Washington U. 18-4 16-3, 10.556
3. Chicago 18-4 17-4, 10.350
4. Aurora 21-2 20-2, 10.476
5. Elmhurst 18-4 14-4, 9.889
6. Wheaton (Ill.) 15-7 11-6, 9.706
7. Carthage 14-8 11-7, 9.235
8. Grinnell 15-6 14-6, 9.350

[Late nite]

Sorry---Still disagree---Injuries and backcourt question marks have dogged IWU all year---Yet, they throttled NCC earlier---I think that NCC finally found a sense of urgency---Any team with that much front-line talent shouldn't have struggled that much---They're now playing to their potential

I wouldn't classify the play of NCC as amazing---I would say they are finally playing up to their lofty pre-season expectations---After all, they were the pick to win the league

It most certainly does qualify as amazing. You don't just go out and consecutively beat three nationally-ranked teams at the drop of a hat when you're 4-6 and your back is against the wall in terms of being eliminated from conference tournament contention. Furthermore, when you have to do it with your sixth man on the sidelines in a walking boot, and you have no big men other than the ones in your starting lineup, that uphill climb becomes even steeper.

The preseason poll stopped being relevant a long time ago. The North Central we saw for most of the season was the team that many of us suspected they might turn out to be, coaches poll be damned -- a team with a very inexperienced and suspect backcourt. The North Central that we've seen over the past two weeks has been a team that has managed to find a way to rise above those inherent limitations.

Give NCC credit, Late Nite. The Cardinals have earned it.

No argument with most of what you say here, but the one thing that stands out to me is the very positive tone talking about a team that finished 5-9 in the conference.

Which aspect of the "very positive tone" did you enjoy best? My comparing them to a botulism-afflicted middle school team after Saturday's game? The way that I tore the Vikings a new orifice for their inability to play defense in their final two games (including their most important game of the year last Wednesday)? Or my 1,342nd hand-wringing jeremiad over the fact that NPU has such a serious problem with closing out tight games? That's the problem with being such a pollyanna: I have a hard time figuring out which of my many compliments of the Vikings people are talking about at any given moment.

The reality of the CCIW and Division III basketball in general is that it is usually 1-2 players that separate the top teams from the bottom.  In my opinion, there is little difference between the 3-8 players on most teams (although having depth with size helps).

I think you could shuffle 1-2 of those kids on each team in the league and the standings would basically stay the same.

I don't necessarily agree, but if you're willing to state your case in depth (with examples) I'll certainly hear you out.

While I think its true that the level of player in the CCIW outside of the top 1-2 is fairly even, I would argue the consistency of winning is with the teams that have experienced players and continuity of coaching. Look at IWU last year. Sr laden team with a consistency in philosophy for several years (plenty of talent helped). Look at Augie, Coach G has been stomping the sidelines for several years now and he now is in the position of "reloading" vs "rebuilding". NCC is approaching that. Wheaton's Coach Harris is the constant while the players change radically. the best teams are going to have consistency in their coaching and a steady stream of talent coming through the ranks.

In football wheaton has had the same coaching staff basically for 20+ yrs and over the past 10 or so they have consistently been winners.

In North Park I see a coach who is beginning to get the right kind of players and they are starting to figure out how to compete in a tough league. the improvement Greg reflects on is very real and logically I would expect NPU to be in the conf tourney next year. (i think they are headed in the right direction in football too after dozens of years as cellar dwellers.)

I agree with Usee's basic premise. If I can paraphrase him, I think he's saying that teams can be evaluated upon the basis of a season; programs are evaluated over a greater length of time, and the signs of progress within a program are measured not only in wins and losses but in coaching continuity, player development, improved recruitment and retention, increased competitiveness, etc.

It's in those areas that I see NPU's program improving. It's the team that fell short in a lot of ways this year, even though it was certainly a vast improvement over the last few editions of the Vikings. In other words, I like the long-term view of North Park men's basketball. The short-term view, as I said last night, left a bittersweet taste.

[petemcb]

While I think its true that the level of player in the CCIW outside of the top 1-2 is fairly even, I would argue the consistency of winning is with the teams that have experienced players and continuity of coaching. Look at IWU last year. Sr laden team with a consistency in philosophy for several years (plenty of talent helped). Look at Augie, Coach G has been stomping the sidelines for several years now and he now is in the position of "reloading" vs "rebuilding". NCC is approaching that. Wheaton's Coach Harris is the constant while the players change radically. the best teams are going to have consistency in their coaching and a steady stream of talent coming through the ranks.

In football wheaton has had the same coaching staff basically for 20+ yrs and over the past 10 or so they have consistently been winners.

In North Park I see a coach who is beginning to get the right kind of players and they are starting to figure out how to compete in a tough league. the improvement Greg reflects on is very real and logically I would expect NPU to be in the conf tourney next year. (i think they are headed in the right direction in football too after dozens of years as cellar dwellers.)

I agree with Usee's basic premise. If I can paraphrase him, I think he's saying that teams can be evaluated upon the basis of a season; programs are evaluated over a greater length of time, and the signs of progress within a program are measured not only in wins and losses but in coaching continuity, player development, improved recruitment and retention, increased competitiveness, etc.

It's in those areas that I see NPU's program improving. It's the team that fell short in a lot of ways this year, even though it was certainly a vast improvement over the last few editions of the Vikings. In other words, I like the long-term view of North Park men's basketball. The short-term view, as I said last night, left a bittersweet taste.

Gregory,

You said it better than I with less words. I agree.

That last line, in its entirety, may never have occurred before, and may never occur again.  We may be witnessing history here, folks.

[petemcb]

Midwest Region
1. Augustana 19-4 19-3, 10.591
2. Washington U. 18-4 16-3, 10.556
3. Chicago 18-4 17-4, 10.350
4. Aurora 21-2 20-2, 10.476
5. Elmhurst 18-4 14-4, 9.889
6. Wheaton (Ill.) 15-7 11-6, 9.706
7. Carthage 14-8 11-7, 9.235
8. Grinnell 15-6 14-6, 9.350.

While their record is impressive, I'm not as impressed with Aurora's gaudy record, given the caliber of many of the opponents on their conference schedule.  I know this is an old, tired, and perhaps irrelevant argument, but I would be curious to see how they would fare against the rigors of a CCIW schedule.  I know there's strength of schedule, or QOWI-type considerations, taken, but I still can't help but believe that teams 5, 6, and 7 as listed above have demonstrated more by putting up the records they have against significantly stronger opponents.  I'll hang up and listen for my responses.

[petemcb]

Similarly, while it now seems like a long time ago, I recall my first game of this season when U of C visited Merner Field House for an early pre-conference game against NCC.  If I remember correctly, NCC won all three periods, handily, and this was while they were still trying to figure out their guard situation, against a team that is guard-heavy and experienced.  I know it was only one game, and an early one at that, but can those more in the know please give me any kind of comparison on the CCIW vs. the UAA, particularly this season?

[usee]

Similarly, while it now seems like a long time ago, I recall my first game of this season when U of C visited Merner Field House for an early pre-conference game against NCC.  If I remember correctly, NCC won all three periods, handily, and this was while they were still trying to figure out their guard situation, against a team that is guard-heavy and experienced.  I know it was only one game, and an early one at that, but can those more in the know please give me any kind of comparison on the CCIW vs. the UAA, particularly this season?

well, Wheaton, IWU and NCC all played U of C (USEE) this season. so you need look no further than their boxscores for a comparison. I was at the wheaton/U of C game and wheaton was in control but never pulled away and then the U of C guards got hot in the last 5 minutes and wheaton broke down on defense several times down the stretch to pull defeat from the jaws of victory. not sure about the other contests. U of C is well coached, plays hard and doesn't quit. they remind me of wheaton really.

[TheHerr]

Midwest Region
1. Augustana 19-4 19-3, 10.591
2. Washington U. 18-4 16-3, 10.556
3. Chicago 18-4 17-4, 10.350
4. Aurora 21-2 20-2, 10.476
5. Elmhurst 18-4 14-4, 9.889
6. Wheaton (Ill.) 15-7 11-6, 9.706
7. Carthage 14-8 11-7, 9.235
8. Grinnell 15-6 14-6, 9.350.

While their record is impressive, I'm not as impressed with Aurora's gaudy record, given the caliber of many of the opponents on their conference schedule.  I know this is an old, tired, and perhaps irrelevant argument, but I would be curious to see how they would fare against the rigors of a CCIW schedule.  I know there's strength of schedule, or QOWI-type considerations, taken, but I still can't help but believe that teams 5, 6, and 7 as listed above have demonstrated more by putting up the records they have against significantly stronger opponents.  I'll hang up and listen for my responses.

I think these rankings are a bit out of date, but with that said it is quite impressive that CCIW has 4 of the top 7 teams in the region.

As for Aurora their schedule may have not been as tedious as anyone in CCIW's; however they did beat the two CCIW teams they played including a huge victory over NCC early in the year.

[79jaybird]

Hi Pat,

I noticed Augie is still #9 and Elmhurst dropped from #12 to #14.  Both Augie/EC lost to North Central and won their other game this past week.  Elmhurst also knocked off Wheaton who ( I think) was #25?  Just curious why if EC dropped, how come Augie didn't.  Hope you are doing well.  M