MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

I've know that Wheaton had to get a Pool A way back in November. The day we lost to Chicago for our second in-region non-conference loss, November 29th I got a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach... like it was sudden death that early on. When we grabbed an in-region win vs Hope it barely helped. With the way that the other CCIW teams were playing it was quickly apparent that the conference was going to beat itself up and that the Whitworth and Chicago losses would prove costly. I wish our guys would treat every game like it's the most important game they've ever played. I just don't see that urgency until the end of the season... and we're never going to be a final four team unless we bring it from day one. 

Excellent point, April, and it speaks to the suggestion made earlier that Elmhurst should get some sort of a mulligan for the season-opening loss to Simpson, because the 'jays hadn't gelled. Well, that's not a valid excuse. When the bell rings, you have to bring your best punches ... whether you're ready or not. In terms of the five primary criteria, the season starts on the Friday before Thanksgiving, not whenever your team finds its chemistry, or one of the starters returns from his preseason injury, or the head coach discovers the best rotation for his team.

That Simpson game was a regional game. Losing it cost Elmhurst dearly, just as did the later losses to Wheaton, Augustana, Millikin, North Central, and Augie. As April said, all CCIW teams need to keep getting it done in non-conference games -- and that goes tenfold for regional non-conference games.

[Gregory Sager]

I have a question:   How come there are sooo many Pool C bids for the East Coast Schools? I see 12 of the 18 Pool C's are geographically in the East?  So only 6 Pool C's are from the other regions?

East and Northeast, actually. The East Region consists of New York State, with a few exceptions in the NYC area that are assigned to the Atlantic Region instead. The Northeast Region consists of all of New England.

Those two regions, which are generally considered to be the two weakest regions in D3, got 7 of the 18 Pool C bids. Sac explained the reason why very succinctly. Lots of teams + lots of conferences + lesser level of competition as compared to other regions = padded QOWIs and RW%s.

[Pat Coleman]

69 teams in the Northeast, 51 in the Midwest.

[Gregory Sager]

Here are Mark Scherer's postmortem comments after he learned that his team had been denied a Pool C berth:

"The NCAA Division III Tournament selection process is broken. We've tried to work within the parameters of the system for the past several seasons. Elmhurst has tried to schedule all 11 of our non-conference games against regional opponents. When we were setting the schedule for this season, we contacted, either by phone or email, every team in our region looking for games. Unfortunately, with the expansion of conferences, teams are left with very few non-conference games to schedule. That leaves a situation where a team either doesn't want to play you, or their schedule doesn't allow room to play you.

"It's unfortunate that we were penalized for not being able to fill up our schedule with regional opponents. I think if you look at the body of our entire work this season, it's hard to not consider us a tournament-worthy team. I strongly believe that we were among the nation's best teams and were worthy of a tournament bid.

"We had only one loss against non-conference opponents. After that, we placed second in a league that is widely regarded as one of the toughest conferences in Division III.

"I know that every year there are a number of upsets in conference tournaments that have an outcome on the at-large selection process, and this year was no exception. But if you're going to crown a national champion in a tournament, then you have to have the nation's best teams in the tournament, otherwise it looks more like a national invitational than a national tournament. It's truly a shame that there are viable national championship contenders who are not given the chance to compete for a national title."

Amen, Coach Scherer.

While I was critical of the fact that Elmhurst played some meaningless games, notably the IIT and Alma contests, at the same time I pointed out that those games might not have appeared on the Bluejays' sked by choice. It turns out that that was indeed the case. Elmhurst was forced to schedule those games, according to Scherer, because of a dearth of willing regional opponents.

It should be mentioned that the merger of the NIIC and the LMC into the brand new NAthC has really hurt the CCIW in terms of scheduling. The old NIIC was so small in terms of membership that its teams annually had to fill as many as 14 or 16 slots on the schedule with non-conference games. That gave CCIW teams an inexhaustible mine of regional non-con contests. No more. Now, even though the new NAthC doesn't even play a full double round-robin, there are only seven non-conference spaces on the schedule left to fill for Aurora, Benedictine, Concordia (IL), and Rockford. Those teams are harder to schedule than they used to be.

Like every other Posting Up regular, I've been very critical of the whole selection system in the past. As Mr. Y explained earlier on Sunday, the idea of a national pool of at-large teams being compared and selected upon regional criteria is simply absurd in a square-pegs-into-round-holes sort of way. But this year it really hit home; not only was the CCIW, the top-ranked conference in the nation according to the Massey Ratings, left out in the cold in terms of an at-large bid, so was what is generally considered to be the best overall conference in the nation, the WIAC.

I don't know if it was Pat or some other D3hoops.com staffer who wrote in the projections piece on the front page, "We didn't feel like we left out any national contenders. It's a pleasant change from years past." Perhaps "national contenders" was only meant to refer to teams that met the standards of the five primary criteria. But if it was meant to refer to teams that actually have a shot at the national title .... well, then that statement is wrong. A national contender was left out. I've seen a lot of Final Four teams over the years, and I feel safe in saying that Elmhurst could've very definitely gotten hot in March and made it to Salem. While I was less sold on UW-Oshkosh the one time that I saw the Titans, their body of work within the WIAC speaks for itself as well.

This whole experience has really left me with a sour taste regarding this year's tournament.

[Gregory Sager]

69 teams in the Northeast, 51 in the Midwest.

We know the numbers, Pat. And we're also well aware that the only league in that region that's worth a darn plays a single round-robin, unlike anyone else in D3, and is thus uniquely poised to fatten upon the sheep -- as they did again this year, to the tune of two Pool Cs.

Quantity and quality are not the same thing. Unfortunately, when you reduce a national tournament selection process to regionally-based mathematical formulae, quantity does become quality.

[Pat Coleman]

I am not sure that Elmhurst was a threat to win the national title the way we believe Capital 2002 and Wheaton 2004 were. That's what that is referring to.

[Pat Coleman]

69 teams in the Northeast, 51 in the Midwest.

We know the numbers, Pat.

YOU know the numbers, Greg. I am not sure everyone here does. Jaybird I am positive doesn't. That's all I'm doing is putting the numbers out there.

[Gregory Sager]

I am not sure that Elmhurst was a threat to win the national title the way we believe Capital 2002 and Wheaton 2004 were. That's what that is referring to.

I've seen Elmhurst numerous times this season, Pat. You haven't. You're mistaken about the Bluejays.

[Pat Coleman]

If you say so. I don't share that opinion, however, and that's why I wrote it the way I did. Sweet 16? Sure. Elite Eight, yeah, I can see that. But the title?

I don't see a Simpson-type loss or a Millikin-type loss on the last team this league sent to the Final Four.

[Gregory Sager]

If you say so. I don't share that opinion, however, and that's why I wrote it the way I did. Sweet 16? Sure. Elite Eight, yeah, I can see that. But the title?

I don't see a Simpson-type loss or a Millikin-type loss on the last team this league sent to the Final Four.

Huh? Last year Illinois Wesleyan lost to an 11-14 Wheaton team. The 2001 edition of the Titans that made it to the Final Four lost to a 13-12 Wheaton team. It happens.

You don't have to share my opinion about the Bluejays, of course. But, then again, how many times did you see Elmhurst play this season?

[Pat Coleman]

If you want to really want to play that card we could compare that number to the number of Final Fours you've been to in the past decade. When you call the NJAC a power conference, do I jump out and ask how many NJAC games you've seen lately?

I've been to games involving teams from all eight regions this year and in many different states. I feel confident in my opinion.

I can tell you're upset but you start by lashing out at me for reporting how many teams are in a region? Come on, where's the sense in that?

Huh? Last year Illinois Wesleyan lost to an 11-14 Wheaton team.

Not at home.

[Gregory Sager]

If you want to really want to play that card we could compare that number to the number of Final Fours you've been to in the past decade. When you call the NJAC a power conference, do I jump out and ask how many NJAC games you've seen lately?

None. But the league has an outstanding track record that extends back to the very beginning of D3. It's having a down decade by its usual tourney standards -- only one second-place finish and two Elite Eights in the oughts -- but it's certainly beating up on its neighbors at the usual clip. The NJAC went 81-38 (.681) in non-con play this season.

Huh? Last year Illinois Wesleyan lost to an 11-14 Wheaton team.

Not at home.

So it doesn't count, then?

C'mon, Pat. You're grasping at straws in an effort to put down Elmhurst. Do I need to point out to you (no pun intended) that UWSP lost both games of their home-and-home with a 12-14 UW-Superior team back in 2004 when the Pointers went on to win their first national title? Sure, UW-Superior had Vince Thomas, but they lost to freakin' Finlandia, for crying out loud. And they beat the Pointers ... twice.

I can tell you're upset but you start by lashing out at me for reporting how many teams are in a region? Come on, where's the sense in that?

You directed that post at my reply to 79jaybird, Pat, not to 79jaybird himself.

Also, I should point out that what upsets me in this instance isn't Elmhurst getting left out of the tournament. It's the unsupportable assumption about the Bluejays that you made in your projection piece that bothers me. Whether you want to believe me or not, you sold the Bluejays short.

[armywife]

MHB has been given a pool C bid and is in the NCAA tournament for the first time in their school's history. Congratulations to them. I am truly excited for their program.  If I had more time, I would love to look through the schedules and results of the teams that did receive pool C bids. How many of them stumbled and still made it in? Do teams in the east find it easier to get into the tournament because there are more schools for them to choose from when it comes to in region games? Does that type of system really put the best teams into the tournament? If so, there has to be a better way of choosing these teams and it's time someone came up with one.

It seems that every year we beat this whole subject to death, but nothing ever changes. I'm sure there are more teams than Elmhurst that are feeling frustrated right now with the way teams are chosen. There is a good possibility that no matter what system was used, there would still be these conversations on the morning after selection Sunday. 

[chizwiz]

The tournament selection committee is a joke.  We should start calling it the BCS.  How does the ODAC get 3 bids and the MAC Freedom get two when the WIAC and the CCIW get only one?  UW-Oshkosh is ranked 7th, Elmhurst is 14th, and UW-Lacrosse is 18th.  And Messiah gets in with a pansy schedule?

How do ho-hum teams like Brandeis, Messiah, and Hood (and even Guilford) get in when some of these aforementioned great teams don't?

[Pat Coleman]

None. But the league has an outstanding track record that extends back to the very beginning of D3. It's having a down decade by its usual tourney standards -- only one second-place finish and two Elite Eights in the oughts -- but it's certainly beating up on its neighbors at the usual clip. The NJAC went 81-38 (.681) in non-con play this season.

Yeah -- those neighbors are stellar, too. A down decade? Thanks -- that's precisely what I'm getting at.

Huh? Last year Illinois Wesleyan lost to an 11-14 Wheaton team.

Not at home.

So it doesn't count, then?

C'mon, Pat. You're grasping at straws in an effort to put down Elmhurst. Do I need to point out to you (no pun intended) that UWSP lost both games of their home-and-home with a 12-14 UW-Superior team back in 2004 when the Pointers went on to win their first national title? Sure, UW-Superior had Vince Thomas, but they lost to freakin' Finlandia, for crying out loud. And they beat the Pointers ... twice.

What part of "a Millikin-type loss" did you not understand? Trying to compare apples to apples, that is, home games to home games.

I can tell you're upset but you start by lashing out at me for reporting how many teams are in a region? Come on, where's the sense in that?

You directed that post at my reply to 79jaybird, Pat, not to 79jaybird himself.

Yeah, sorry I couldn't get that post to the board sooner. I kinda had other stuff going on today. I was just following up on yours.

I'm sorry if this is insulting to Elmhurst. I feel they are not a national title team, merely a Sweet 16 team. Obviously that means I have no respect whatsoever. [/sarcasm]