MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[cardinalpride]

There's the obvious argument, which is that I've seen D3 All-Americans by the truckload over the past thirty years, so I know what one looks like -- and Kent Raymond clearly fits the bill. Aside from that, I find the above argument expostulated by AndOne against Raymond's omission, which is that Raymond deserves to be on the d3hoops.com AA team on the grounds that a guard who is voted regional Player of the Year ought to be automatically deemed among the ten best guards in the division, to be pretty airtight in its mathematical precision. Of course, it works only if you accept the premise that the Midwest Region's players, at all stratas of performance, are equal to or superior to those of the other seven regions. Given this region's reputation, I think we can all accept that premise.

But there's another argument that I consider equally sound, and that's the argument that the CCIW MOP should automatically be deemed worthy of All-American status by virtue of the conference's strength. Those who get ticked off at me for constantly touting the CCIW's prowess aren't going to like this argument, but I don't see much (if any) opposition to the idea that the CCIW is a power conference and ranks among the top two or three in D3 in terms of the league's relative level of play. And if the CCIW is numbered among D3's elite conferences, then how can its Most Outstanding Player not be considered among the elite on an individual level? It's akin to saying that the ACC Player of the Year isn't worthy of D1 All-American status.

Greg, thanks for the research.  That's why it didn't make any sense to me either.  In the midwest region this year, the 1st team selection consisted of 4 d3hoops AA:

Zach Freeman --1st team
Troy Ruths-- Hon. Ment.
Nate Drury--3rd team
Larry Welton--3rd team

Obviously, the fifth Player on the 1st team and POY in the Midwest Region is Kent Raymond.   All along, my question was how could a system allow that kind of a snub to happen?  It shouldn't even matter what position the kid plays.  IMHO, it makes sense that a d3hoops POY in any region should automatically be named to 1 of 5 d3hoops AA teams.  Unless of course, the player strength in the region doesn't call for anyone to be worthy of AA status over a player from another region.  Which is precisely what happened to Jason Boone of NYU a year ago.

As far as the CCIW MOP being an automatic AA, I wasn't going to go there. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

It's akin to saying that the ACC Player of the Year isn't worthy of D1 All-American status.

Gosh, I hope the ACC player of the year isn't an All-American; that conference is so overrated.  There's definitely better choices elsewhere.

[wheels81]

Oh come on now ralph, I've scene plentee of mispelled werds and not typos either ,an grammer errirs. So don't tell me I omit a wurd or too and that disqualifies my chances.
Example:  Quote from And ONe:
and I'm just the messinger here relating a RUMOR I heard  so don't shoot the MESSINGER.....
"I am what I am" 

[Late nite]

True ... but you listed Zach Freeman as a forward so that you could get two centers onto the first team, slotting Freeman alongside his fellow low-post denizen Ben Strong of Guilford. Zach Freeman was a center, not a forward. In fact, he was the only player of any substantial size whatsoever on his team this season, which made his "center-ness" even more glaring. Yes, the line is often blurred between center and power forward, but it really wasn't in his case ...

I disagree.  To me, you can call Zach a "center" or a "forward" or a "4" or a "5"...whatever.  Zach can play either position and has over the course of his career.  This year he certainly played more 5 than 4, but he really is more of a true 4.

Put it this way...if the goal is to create teams that could take the floor together in real life, Pat's in good shape with the 1st Team because Zach can play his natural position (the 4) and Ben Strong the 5.  I think anyone who has seen Zach play is OK with him being called a "forward"...

That reasoning doesn't wash, because there's any number of shooting guards who could play small forward, but didn't ... and there's any number of small forwards who could play shooting guard, but didn't. Where do you draw the line? You draw it where the player in question actually played ... and Zach Freeman played center this year.

Again, this is not an issue of whether or not Freeman deserves to be on the first team, nor is it an indictment of Pat's AA-teams-should-be-feasible-in-real-life methodology. It's a matter of internal consistency regarding Pat's original statement that AA teams should reflect the actual positions played by the players in question. Late Nite gets to the crux of the matter:

Ypsi---Just read your reply to my statement---Freeman was an all-region player last season as a center (I thought Jones was the center?) and this year he was an All-American as a forward (when he was clearly the 5)---Very interesting to find a spot that fits the player and not necessarily the player to fit the spot

... which is precisely what Pat has scrupulously intended to avoid over the years.

I realize that I'm being nitpicky about this. (Me? Nitpicky? Nooo!) I just want to see consistency applied to everyone under consideration for AA. I realize, probably as much or better than anyone who posts here besides Pat, just how hard it is to construct an All-American team on the D3 level, and I fully sympathize with Pat because it's hard to take the inevitable flak from disgruntled fans every year when the team is announced without feeling the need to explain yourself. But, as Bob himself alluded, it's intrinsically difficult to base the construction of an AA team upon a strict policy of set positions when the game of basketball itself tends to be much more elastic as it pertains to positions than the classic two guards / two forwards / one center lineup would allow. Basketball is much more a game of interchangeable parts than it is a game of specialization.

I agree---But my guess is that Freeman could have played tuba in the band this year and D3 would have found a spot on the team for him on the 1st team---All-American?---Yes---First team?---No---He wasn't even the best player in the conference---As the best player (by far) on a 7th place team, gaudy statistics are to be expected---I realize that I am in the vast minority, but IMO the selection was more reflective of the body of work over 4 years than what he accomplished this past season---A standout player who had a great career, but also a beneficiary of great teammates the first 3 years to deflect some of the attention and a poor team to give him multiple opportunities his last season---Right place, right time---Not a player that can take over a game, like Raymond

[petemcb]

But not as good as being the bard of the boards.

Oh my God, the next thing we know, someone will be quoting Shakespeare!   

Reputation is an idle and most false imposition. Oft got without merit and lost without deserving. - Othello

I WIN!!! 8)

How prophetic!  How could he possibly have known how the karma deal would play out on this board?

[tjcummingsfan]

I agree---But my guess is that Freeman could have played tuba in the band this year and D3 would have found a spot on the team for him on the 1st team---All-American?---Yes---First team?---No---He wasn't even the best player in the conference---As the best player (by far) on a 7th place team, gaudy statistics are to be expected---I realize that I am in the vast minority, but IMO the selection was more reflective of the body of work over 4 years than what he accomplished this past season---A standout player who had a great career, but also a beneficiary of great teammates the first 3 years to deflect some of the attention and a poor team to give him multiple opportunities his last season---Right place, right time---Not a player that can take over a game, like Raymond

I think its a little unfair to make the statement that Freeman wasn't the best player in the conference, he definitely has an argument for being there.  Raymond's team did better, so that helped him for sure in the MOP discussion.  Freeman is one heck of a basketball player, and I would bet if IWU had had a little more luck injury wise, or if he had been playing on another team in the CCIW with more depth and talent (NP for example) he would have led that team to a top 3 finish. 

Now I agree its absurd that Raymond isn't an all-american. 

[AndOne]

Does the CCIW name a Freshman of the Year or an all frosh team ?
There certainly were some talented freshman in the conference this year.

[diehardfan]

AndOne... what's up with the latent fear of Shakespere?

Greg, thaks for the research, I knew you couldn't resist that one.

I am perfectly fine with saying that Zach is the best player in the conference. Its fairly close, but I'm okay with giving him the edge.  I didn't see him this year, but he would have had to have somehow  gotten worse to not deserve that first team AA slot. However, compared to the other guards, he deserves to be metioned... blah blah...

[diehardfan]

AndOne: in the past we've done an All CCIW Chat team that includes a lot more categories, including Frosh of the year... no idea why that isn't around this year... probably cause no one wants to do the leg work of compiling it.

[AndOne]

AndOne... what's up with the latent fear of Shakespere?

No fear---just don't like to mix my Shakespere with my basketball.   

I must hand it to you though--u did take quick advantsge of the opening I left for your response. 

[diehardfan]

If you don't think poetry and basketball mix, you haven't been to the MWC or ODAC boards lately.

I think its one of the most fun quirky things about DIII is that "the  discussion at hand" + "Shakespere" = "that Othello quote" in a LOT of people's heads.

[Titan Q]

I agree---But my guess is that Freeman could have played tuba in the band this year and D3 would have found a spot on the team for him on the 1st team---All-American?---Yes---First team?---No---He wasn't even the best player in the conference---As the best player (by far) on a 7th place team, gaudy statistics are to be expected---I realize that I am in the vast minority, but IMO the selection was more reflective of the body of work over 4 years than what he accomplished this past season---A standout player who had a great career, but also a beneficiary of great teammates the first 3 years to deflect some of the attention and a poor team to give him multiple opportunities his last season---Right place, right time---Not a player that can take over a game, like Raymond

Late Nite, what 4/5 player on D3hoops.com All-American teams 2 through Honorable Mention should have made the 1st Team over Zach Freeman, and why?   

(After the statistics of each player, I have noted the strength of schedule each played against per the final Massey Ratings.)

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1


Zach Freeman (Sr, IWU) - 21.6 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 196-319 (.614) FG, 142-179 (.793) FT -- S.O.S. #6


2nd Team
Brandon Adair (Sr, Virginia Wesleyan) - 17.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 246-356 (.691) FG, 74-145 (.510) FT - S.O.S. #30

Tom Port (Sr, Wooster) - 16.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 206-386 (.534) FG, 58-75 (.773) FT - S.O.S. #11

Isaac Rosefeldt (Sr, St. Thomas) - 17.9 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 183-333 (.550 FG), 81-131 (.618) FT - S.O.S. #96

3rd Team
Larry Welton (Jr, Aurora) - 20.0 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 192-430 (.447) FG, 115-146 (.788) FT - S.O.S. #199

Dane Borchers (Sr, Wittenberg) - 17.0 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 161-285 (.565) FG, 134-165 (.812) - S.O.S. #70

Jason Boone (Sr, NYU) - 14.1 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 138-219 (.630) FG, 119-185 (.643) FT - S.O.S. #88

4th Team
Joe Werner (Sr, UW-LaCrosse) - 16.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 178-317 (.562) FG, 96-125 (.768) FT - S.O.S. #1

Tyler Ousley (Sr, Otterbein) - 19.7 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 166-291 (.570) FG, 194-262 (.740) FT - S.O.S. #25

Honorable Mention

Chad McGowan (Jr, York-Pa) - 21.7 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 207-411 (.504) FG, 143-215 (665) FT - S.O.S. #148

Troy Ruths (Jr, Wash U) - 19.1 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 224-398 (.563) FG, 124-188 (.660) FT - S.O.S. #2

[Titan Q]

Since it is rumor season here...

I've heard some rumblings about Illinois State 6-7/220 post player Mike Vandello (Bettendorf H.S., IA) transfering to Augustana.  Vandello averaged 9 minutes per game this year - 1.5 ppg, 1.7 rpg.  As a freshman he started 9 games.

He'd be quite a player in the CCIW.

http://goredbirds.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/vandello_mike00.html

[AndOne]

I agree---But my guess is that Freeman could have played tuba in the band this year and D3 would have found a spot on the team for him on the 1st team---All-American?---Yes---First team?---No---He wasn't even the best player in the conference---As the best player (by far) on a 7th place team, gaudy statistics are to be expected---I realize that I am in the vast minority, but IMO the selection was more reflective of the body of work over 4 years than what he accomplished this past season---A standout player who had a great career, but also a beneficiary of great teammates the first 3 years to deflect some of the attention and a poor team to give him multiple opportunities his last season---Right place, right time---Not a player that can take over a game, like Raymond

Late Nite, what 4/5 player on D3hoops.com All-American teams 2 through Honorable Mention should have made the 1st Team over Zach Freeman, and why?   

(After the statistics of each player, I have noted the strength of schedule each played against per the final Massey Ratings.)

http://www.mratings.com/rate.php?lg=cb&sub=III&mid=1


Zach Freeman (Sr, IWU) - 21.6 ppg, 9.1 rpg, 196-319 (.614) FG, 142-179 (.793) FT -- S.O.S. #6


2nd Team
Brandon Adair (Sr, Virginia Wesleyan) - 17.7 ppg, 7.5 rpg, 246-356 (.691) FG, 74-145 (.510) FT - S.O.S. #30

Tom Port (Sr, Wooster) - 16.1 ppg, 6.5 rpg, 206-386 (.534) FG, 58-75 (.773) FT - S.O.S. #11

Isaac Rosefeldt (Sr, St. Thomas) - 17.9 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 183-333 (.550 FG), 81-131 (.618) FT - S.O.S. #96

3rd Team
Larry Welton (Jr, Aurora) - 20.0 ppg, 6.7 rpg, 192-430 (.447) FG, 115-146 (.788) FT - S.O.S. #199

Dane Borchers (Sr, Wittenberg) - 17.0 ppg, 10.1 rpg, 161-285 (.565) FG, 134-165 (.812) - S.O.S. #70

Jason Boone (Sr, NYU) - 14.1 ppg, 9.6 rpg, 138-219 (.630) FG, 119-185 (.643) FT - S.O.S. #88

4th Team
Joe Werner (Sr, UW-LaCrosse) - 16.7 ppg, 9.7 rpg, 178-317 (.562) FG, 96-125 (.768) FT - S.O.S. #1

Tyler Ousley (Sr, Otterbein) - 19.7 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 166-291 (.570) FG, 194-262 (.740) FT - S.O.S. #25

Honorable Mention

Chad McGowan (Jr, York-Pa) - 21.7 ppg, 8.4 rpg, 207-411 (.504) FG, 143-215 (665) FT - S.O.S. #148

Troy Ruths (Jr, Wash U) - 19.1 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 224-398 (.563) FG, 124-188 (.660) FT - S.O.S. #2

The results are in..................................................

And the winner is----------------------------------------> Zach Freeman!

And this is NOT from an IWU fan.

I also go back to my previous post from yesterday:

I saw Zach Freeman play 3 games this season. At times he was POSITIONED more in a forward position at the start of an offensive play, and at other times he initially took more of a center/low post POSITION. The truly amazing thing and what helps make Mr. Freeman the great player that he is is that he excelled no matter which POSITION he played from. On top of this, he showed the ability to start out a little higher and move down low, or start on the block and move up toward the top to receive the ball and begin a move to the basket. His VERSITILITY is one of the reasons he was such an outstanding player worthy of 1st team All-American recognition.

[Gregory Sager]

Since it is rumor season here...

I've heard some rumblings about Illinois State 6-7/220 post player Mike Vandello (Bettendorf H.S., IA) transfering to Augustana.  Vandello averaged 9 minutes per game this year - 1.5 ppg, 1.7 rpg.  As a freshman he started 9 games.

He'd be quite a player in the CCIW.

http://goredbirds.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/mtt/vandello_mike00.html

I've also heard rumors that Brett Wessels is considering transferring from Iowa, where he's spent two years as a walk-on for the Hawkeyes, to Augie to follow in his brother Drew's footsteps. Wessels saw garbage time in six games for the Hawkeyes as a freshman in 2005-06, and in fifteen more this just-concluded season. He's apparently a bigger and better version of his older brother. Ironically, his high school coach at Bettendorf (IA) High was Kevin Skillett, who did this transfer in reverse when he was a college student; Skillett absolutely tore up this league and made All-CCIW first team as a freshman for Augustana in 1990-91, and then transferred to Iowa where he first sat on the end of the Hawkeyes bench as a walk-on and then worked his way up to a scholarship and became a useful reserve for the Hawkeyes over the course of this three seasons in Iowa City.

Sounds as though Grey Giovanine may be trying to restock his rotation via D1 transfers rather than through his JV team.