MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[diehardfan]

Uh, no, it isn't. People have griped about Giovanine whenever he's had a particularly egregious evening of craziness, not "towards the end of the season when Augie is wrapping up the conference title." In fact, at the end of the conference season is when the people who are critical of Giovanine's sideline demeanor (me included) compliment him on another job well done of putting together and running a championship team.

Come on, April. You're conflating all sorts of things into this discussion that don't belong. How does "the cute picture of him with his family" have anything at all to do with how he acts on the sidelines? And who on CCIW Chat has ever disputed the notion that Giovanine is "doing something right"? For crying out loud, the man's sterling record speaks for itself. He has been a resounding success as Augustana's head basketball coach, with a record at that institution that's matched only by Jim Borcherding in Augustana's illustrious basketball history.

And the whole bit about how much those close to the program love him is a complete red herring as well. It doesn't refute the fact that his sideline behavior is often cringe-inducing. How his players and ex-players feel about him isn't germane to the issue of his demeanor during games. As for his critics "not knowing what they are talking about," I've seen and heard his antics repeatedly over the past seven years. I know what I'm talking about through firsthand observation, and so do the other CCIW fans who have criticized his sideline behavior.

Please stop trying to make the criticism of Grey Giovanine be about things that it was never about in the first place. Introducing all sorts of irrelevant tidbits about him isn't going to fly. The man is a great basketball coach and a proven winner. He also has a tendency to act like a complete jackass on the sidelines. He's not the first example of a basketball coach who combines those qualities (Bobby Knight, anyone?), and I strongly suspect that he won't be the last.

Greg, you know perfectly well that in-game demeanor is an overwhelmingly small percentage of what coaching is (and that's a very small part of who he is as a person overall for that matter). His in-game demeanor is just the only part of his coaching that you or I or anyone not from Augie ever sees from him. And coaching emphatically, the way that he does, is contextualized for his players, the player parents, the administration staff and everyone at Augie in a way it's just plain not going to be contextualized in that way for people on the sidelines from other institutions... especially not rival ones. That is why the fact that he is a loving father, and a caring, dedicated, successful coach matters in this discussion. If he was just a "complete jackass" (as you referred to him as being on the sidelines) in all areas of his coaching and in all areas of his life, he'd never get anyone to follow him, his teams would suck, and before his teams ever had a chance to suck from a lack of leadership, he would have been fired by the administration.

You (and all the other posters that constantly bring this up, year after year) are condescendingly demanding the kind of perfection out of him that you would never be able to live up to yourself. Give us all a break and give it a rest.

I love Coach Harris and all of the Wheaton Athletic Dept to death. I feel extremely blessed to have gone to a school who employs people of such high character. I wouldn't trade them for anyone in the world. And even though I am confident that they conduct themselves in a way that honors our institution, I can't imagine that they haven't made any mistakes over the years. Heck, I've tried to represent Wheaton well on these boards for the last five years, but I know there are many times that I've overwhelmingly failed. It's called being human. And that's precisely why we need God's grace in the first place.

[knarocky22]

Wow.  My comment was meant to be a joke, not to bring up the Greg Giovanine conversation up right now.  Sorry I started it.

However, if sideline demeanor is the only complaint you have about Giovanine, give it a rest.  We all know he can be quite animated at times.  However, if North Park was winning and had a coach that acted like Coach G. on the sidelines, you wouldn't be complaining about it like you are.

[Gregory Sager]

However, if sideline demeanor is the only complaint you have about Giovanine, give it a rest.  We all know he can be quite animated at times.  However, if North Park was winning and had a coach that acted like Coach G. on the sidelines, you wouldn't be complaining about it like you are.

You are totally wrong about that. Furthermore, what gives you the authority to speak as to how I would act in a given hypothetical situation? I don't remember lying on a psychoanalyst's couch while you sat in the room with a pen and notepad.

As for "giving it a rest," please keep in mind that you're the one who brought it up with your wisecrack about people getting riled up about Giovanine only when his teams clinch CCIW titles.

Greg, you know perfectly well that in-game demeanor is an overwhelmingly small percentage of what coaching is (and that's a very small part of who he is as a person overall for that matter).

Did I say it wasn't?

His in-game demeanor is just the only part of his coaching that you or I or anyone not from Augie ever sees from him. And coaching emphatically, the way that he does, is contextualized for his players, the player parents, the administration staff and everyone at Augie in a way it's just plain not going to be contextualized in that way for people on the sidelines from other institutions... especially not rival ones.

That's a cop-out, April. Does his unsportsmanlike yelling out instructions while opposing players are in the act of shooting free throws have a contextual basis that we don't understand? Does swearing like a longshoreman, screaming at a ref who is three feet away from him, kicking over chairs, or stalking out of the coaching box and halfway across the floor to grab a player by the arm have contextual bases?

I'm not saying that there isn't rhyme nor reason to much (if not most) of what he does in game situations. Intensity is often a highly-valued trait in a basketball coach, and a high percentage of players respond better to that sort of demeanor than to a more low-key approach. But intensity is not the same thing as being an obnoxious vulgarian.

That is why the fact that he is a loving father, and a caring, dedicated, successful coach matters in this discussion. If he was just a "complete jackass" (as you referred to him as being on the sidelines) in all areas of his coaching and in all areas of his life, he'd never get anyone to follow him, his teams would suck, and before his teams ever had a chance to suck from a lack of leadership, he would have been fired by the administration.

First of all, I didn't call him a complete jackass. I said that he has a tendency to act like a complete jackass, which is a totally different thing altogether. Second, you must not follow basketball as closely as I thought you did, because the sport is replete with examples of men who behave boorishly on the sidelines who are in fact characterized by many of the people close to them (players and non-players alike) as being both caring and highly-successful leaders. Bobby Knight, whom I already cited, is one of them. Gene Keady is another. Jerry Sloan, Geno Auriemma ... the profession is full of guys who wouldn't make very good scoutmasters or church deacons but who have made darn good (and successful) basketball coaches. Your premise is in error.

You (and all the other posters that constantly bring this up, year after year) are condescendingly demanding the kind of perfection out of him that you would never be able to live up to yourself.

Baloney. Absolute baloney. Do I "demand perfection" out of any other coach? No. Am I "demanding perfection" out of Giovanine? Not even close, unless you consider minimal standards of civil behavior to be "perfection". Is it fair for me to expect coaches to comport themselves with at least a modicum of civility and sportsmanship? Well, that's your call (just as it's the call of the referees who are entrusted with making sure that the coaches maintain that modicum of civility and sportsmanship, or else suffer the consequences of a bench technical), but don't make sweeping statements about my holding him to a higher standard than I hold myself. That's ridiculous.

Give us all a break and give it a rest.

Who died and put you in charge? And who made you the voice of everyone else on CCIW Chat?

As I said, Knarocky is the one who brought this up. Not me.

I love Coach Harris and all of the Wheaton Athletic Dept to death. I feel extremely blessed to have gone to a school who employs people of such high character. I wouldn't trade them for anyone in the world. And even though I am confident that they conduct themselves in a way that honors our institution, I can't imagine that they haven't made any mistakes over the years. Heck, I've tried to represent Wheaton well on these boards for the last five years, but I know there are many times that I've overwhelmingly failed. It's called being human. And that's precisely why we need God's grace in the first place.

Are you seriously bringing Bill Harris into a discussion about Grey Giovanine? Say what you will about Bill and his occasional whininess on the sidelines, the man represents his school within the high standards which it expects him to publicly uphold. Bill Harris is not everyone's cup of tea, but his sideline behavior, regrettable moments and all, isn't even in the same galaxy as Giovanine's in terms of its respectability.

I completely agree with you about grace and about being human, of course. But what's so absolutely baffling about your stance is that you're always the one quickest to take offense at off-color statements or boorish behavior on Posting Up. Yet here's a coach whose sideline behavior regularly (not accidentally on rare occasions) exhibits everything that you find offensive ... and yet you make excuses for him.

I will state this for the umpteenth time: I think Grey Giovanine is a great basketball coach. He has a proven formula for constructing a winning basketball team, he intelligently recruits to fit that formula, and he gets the most out of his players in order to maximize that formula. I'd give my eyeteeth to see Paul Brenegan, or any other NPU coach, have his kind of success. And if Augustana's players, fans, students, and administration have no problem with the way he acts on the sidelines, then that's the end of that. My complaints, and those of every other outsider who take issue with him, have no bearing whatsoever (unless we wear black and white stripes and carry whistles).

I don't like the way he acts on the sidelines. That shouldn't be a big deal if you're an Augie fan, unless you think that the comportment of those who represent your school matters. If not, then who cares? The man's a winner, and that's presumably the more important thing in your book.

[hopefan]

After reading the above, With my love of D3hoops and continuing desire to experience all of the ups and downs of the game, I think I need to see Auggie in action and draw my own conclusions  - They play Wash U again this year - not sure where, but may have to check it out....  or up to Bloomington if TQ can wedge me in!!

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Lions & Tigers & Bears, Oh My..............

We're not in Kansas anymore.......

GS must have taken his "Prikkel" pills this morning....

**********

as for Augustana's "illustrious basketball history", while Steve Yount did enjoy success early on at Augiestana, the Rock Island school's illustrious basketball history pretty much began with Jumping Jim Borcherding in 1970.

While everyone in the CCIW found it pretty tough in the little crackerbox (half the size of North Park's present gym) that they used to call home, the RI Vikings were never a consistent powerhouse in the CCI until Borcherding.  In fact, they were in the fifties pretty much at the bottom of the stack.

MW 70:3

[Titan Q]

After reading the above, With my love of D3hoops and continuing desire to experience all of the ups and downs of the game, I think I need to see Auggie in action and draw my own conclusions  - They play Wash U again this year - not sure where, but may have to check it out....  or up to Bloomington if TQ can wedge me in!!

I'll get ya in, hopefan.  I know people.

[north central]

sorry my compliment for Coach Giovionne got the whole bored riled up.
I am aware of his( sideline antics) and thats just his style just like coach Harris at Wheaton has his own style. both have been very effective and whatever they are doing they wont change and should not change. I really have a lot of respect for both as coaches
Good luck to both this season except against millikin.

[Late nite]

Lions & Tigers & Bears, Oh My..............

We're not in Kansas anymore.......

GS must have taken his "Prikkel" pills this morning....

**********

as for Augustana's "illustrious basketball history", while Steve Yount did enjoy success early on at Augiestana, the Rock Island school's illustrious basketball history pretty much began with Jumping Jim Borcherding in 1970.

While everyone in the CCIW found it pretty tough in the little crackerbox (half the size of North Park's present gym) that they used to call home, the RI Vikings were never a consistent powerhouse in the CCI until Borcherding.  In fact, they were in the fifties pretty much at the bottom of the stack.

MW 70:3

Played in the CCIW when he was coaching---Every time you dribbled up the sideline by his bench (and well beyond), you felt like you were being double-teamed---He shuffled along side of you in a defensive stance position while his defender was in your face---Now, that's sideline demeanor!---Times have changed---Coaches really haven't---There will always be a few who will take it to the limit and a few who will cross the standards of acceptable sideline behavior

[north central]

Dennis i have heard a lot of stories abouty that "cracker box " gym at augie under Borcherding. My dad played there in the early 70's .

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Dennis i have heard a lot of stories abouty that "cracker box " gym at augie under Borcherding. My dad played there in the early 70's .

The gym that Hoosiers was filmed in was the CHicago Stadium compared to Augie's old gym.

There was a small track suspended above the floor and the court was not centered in the gym.  Fans sat on the suspended track or in a small set of bleachers on one side.  The benches and scorers table were the other side.

On the benches side the track overhanged the court by about six inches, so shooting from the dead corner was like shooting from out of a tunnel.  There was a five-lane 20-yard pool in the basement underneath.  The building was always hot.  The visiting team had to dress and meet in the weight room in the basement.

The entrance to the gym was by a staircase on one end.  The four doors were closer than the stage is at North Park, so when the game started they put wresting mats over the doors.

The last year that Augustana played in the old gym (1970-71) the walls on the 2nd floor had started to crack - badly - it was possible to look outside without looking through a window.

Having seen the "old gyms" at all of the CCIW schools except the old Carthage and old Illinois College gyms, I can tell you that some of them were really unique - like playing in a dust storm indoors on top of the dirt sub-floors at Lake Forest and North Central, or dribbling around a stairway at Elmhurst and Carroll.

MW 70:3

[knarocky22]

My comment was clearly a joke.  I really didn't think that it would start this again.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Rule #1 of the CCIW Chat off-season: Never say ANYTHING if you can't live with where it may go.

Rule #2: With this crowd, NO ONE can predict where it may go!

[AndOne]

Congratulations to Greg Ktistou former Carthage standout on being named the Head Coach at Downers Grove North High School.  I look forward to the day we can get him back in Kenosha, working with Bosko, and eventually taking over when he retires.  Go redmen!!!

I will add my congratulations. I have known Greg for a few years and know him to be a good guy with good knowledge of the game. His appointment to the Downers North head coaching position was a natural progression. He is a graduate of Downers South and has been 2nd assistant to DGS head coach Paul Runyon for several years. Accordingly, being both an alum and employee in District 99, and having earned respect within the District, he no doubt had an inside track to obtaining his well deserved appointment.   

[AndOne]

Wow.  My comment was meant to be a joke, not to bring up the Greg Giovanine conversation up right now.  Sorry I started it.

However, if sideline demeanor is the only complaint you have about Giovanine, give it a rest.  We all know he can be quite animated at times.  However, if North Park was winning and had a coach that acted like Coach G. on the sidelines, you wouldn't be complaining about it like you are.

Surprised nobody caught this before---I think we're talking about GreY Giovanine.

Knarocky does make at least a partial point when he says that "if NPU was winning and had a coach that acted like Coach G on the sidelines, you wouldn't be complaining about it like you are."
I think thats prob true of not only NPU fans, but of fans of any highly successful
team. No doubt the man can coach.

However, I do think that Giovanine's antics go overboard at times.
As an illustration of what Knarocky refers to above as "quite animated"-------

I remember seeing him charge halfway out onto the court during one game last season. Both arms were windmilling around like crazy and every other step was followed by a kick in the refs direction. He was screaming while at the same time, thrashing his head back and forth. He frankly gave the appearance of a crazed dog. So much so, I was expecting the medics to arrive any minute to administer an examination for the possibility of rabies.     

[diehardfan]

GS must have taken his "Prikkel" pills this morning....

You know something's wrong when Dennis is trying to be the diffusing, humorous, voice of reason. Good try though.

Give us all a break and give it a rest.

Who died and put you in charge? And who made you the voice of everyone else on CCIW Chat?

No one. Pat is in charge. But I have never been afraid of you. And I'm certainly not about to let the entire board become a hellish place because you or anyone else feels the need to be a condescending jerk and make persistently rude comments about people who are 1000% times more important than us in the grand scheme DIII basketball. Having a lot of inside contacts, and the ability to look things up on Wikipedia, doesn't make you the CCIW god that you so clearly think it does. And based on the way that you've constantly misconstrued things that people have said this season (case in point, suggesting that I thought Coach Harris's theoretical imperfect behavior was in the same universe and or quantum reality as Coach G's), and then attacked the argument you think they made to death when it has nothing to do with what they actually said, it certainly hasn't made you a good listener.

The coaches and players and fans of this league deserve better than all this bitterness. And that's why I bothered to say anything even though I knew you wouldn't hear it.

I don't even know who you are anymore.