MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Greg:  please support your declaration that Gensler is a "superstar."

Gensler's been an All-CCIW player both as a freshman and a sophomore, and the list of players in CCIW history who have been thus honored for both of their underclassmen seasons is not a long one. Over the past decade (somewhat unusually) there have been nine players who have achieved this: Jason Wiertel, Rob Garnes, Luke Kasten, Antoine McDaniel, Drew Carstens, Chris Martin, Zach Freeman, Kent Raymond, and Gensler. If you're known by the company you keep, then Gensler's in superstar company.

More to the point, I said that he was Millikin's superstar. He has clearly been the Big Blue's dominant scorer, key ballhandler, and go-to player over his two seasons in Decatur. In his freshman campaign he averaged 17.8 ppg overall (6th best in the league), while his next-highest-scoring teammate Korte Long averaged 12.6 ppg. In CCIW play the discrepancy was even more pronounced; Gensler averaged 19.2 ppg (5th best in the league), while Long averaged only 10.4 ppg. Last year as a sophomore Gensler averaged 16.5 ppg overall (6th best in the league again) while Millikin's second-leading scorer, Mike Gavic, averaged only 10.1. In league play the Gensler/Gavic comparison was 15.5 ppg to 10.1 ppg, still a wide margin.

If Gensler were to return to the team and finish out his career by scoring the same amount of points as an upperclassman that he scored as an underclassmen, he'd end up as the sixth-leading scorer in Millikin history with 1,682 points. And that's simply the break-even mark; most players perform better as juniors and seniors than they did as freshmen and sophomores, so it's reasonable to project that a healthy Gensler would wind up his career as Millikin's fourth-leading scorer all-time, trailing only the three members of the Big Blue's Two Thousand Point Club: Leon Gobczynski, Jesse Price, and Scott Steagall.

He's been by far the best player on two bad Millikin teams, but he's done so as an underclassman. I don't have any qualms about calling him a superstar.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Greg:  please support your declaration that Gensler is a "superstar."

Gensler's been an All-CCIW player both as a freshman and a sophomore, and the list of players in CCIW history who have been thus honored for both of their underclassmen seasons is not a long one. Over the past decade (somewhat unusually) there have been nine players who have achieved this: Jason Wiertel, Rob Garnes, Luke Kasten, Antoine McDaniel, Drew Carstens, Chris Martin, Zach Freeman, Kent Raymond, and Gensler. If you're known by the company you keep, then Gensler's in superstar company.

More to the point, I said that he was Millikin's superstar. He has clearly been the Big Blue's dominant scorer, key ballhandler, and go-to player over his two seasons in Decatur. In his freshman campaign he averaged 17.8 ppg overall (6th best in the league), while his next-highest-scoring teammate Korte Long averaged 12.6 ppg. In CCIW play the discrepancy was even more pronounced; Gensler averaged 19.2 ppg (5th best in the league), while Long averaged only 10.4 ppg. Last year as a sophomore Gensler averaged 16.5 ppg overall (6th best in the league again) while Millikin's second-leading scorer, Mike Gavic, averaged only 10.1. In league play the Gensler/Gavic comparison was 15.5 ppg to 10.1 ppg, still a wide margin.

If Gensler were to return to the team and finish out his career by scoring the same amount of points as an upperclassman that he scored as an underclassmen, he'd end up as the sixth-leading scorer in Millikin history with 1,682 points. And that's simply the break-even mark; most players perform better as juniors and seniors than they did as freshmen and sophomores, so it's reasonable to project that a healthy Gensler would wind up his career as Millikin's fourth-leading scorer all-time, trailing only the three members of the Big Blue's Two Thousand Point Club: Leon Gobczynski, Jesse Price, and Scott Steagall.

He's been by far the best player on two bad Millikin teams, but he's done so as an underclassman. I don't have any qualms about calling him a superstar.

That's what we call a Sager rebuttal, right there.

[north central]

CCIW grad I know for sure that gensler is back on campus. and i know for sure that as of now he has not spoke with the coaching staff about playing.Now if he is not playing because of Littell then why stay at MU?

And Sager as usual great research and details but all i was trying to say was that I have played on four years of college ball and coached high school or college for another 6 and I usually see 5-7 people drop off. It may not be the norm but thats my experience. 

And Sager I guess you could call him a supersatar but my personal opinion is that there are no superstars at D3.

[tjcummingsfan]

And Sager I guess you could call him a supersatar but my personal opinion is that there are no superstars at D3.

have you ever seen Kent Raymond play?

[north central]

oh absolutely  and no doubt he's a very good D 3 player. That comment was not intended to disrespect anyone ,its just that when i hear the word superstar i think great NBA player with lots of endorsement deals, not D 3 all americans.

[markerickson]

I knew Sager would come through for all of us.  Regardless, I'd be careful about the use of "superstar."  A multi-year D3 All-American would probably meet my standards.

BTW:  Far too many acts have been inducted into the Rock and Roll HOF.

[tjcummingsfan]

oh absolutely  and no doubt he's a very good D 3 player. That comment was not intended to disrespect anyone ,its just that when i hear the word superstar i think great NBA player with lots of endorsement deals, not D 3 all americans.

I think context is important... anyone who is dominant in a division, region, conference, and even team could be considered a superstar. 

I'd be willing to argue that these great D3 players are greater superstars than NBA players in that they are so talented athletically while still putting academics and other concerns first. 

[Mr. Ypsi]

oh absolutely  and no doubt he's a very good D 3 player. That comment was not intended to disrespect anyone ,its just that when i hear the word superstar i think great NBA player with lots of endorsement deals, not D 3 all americans.

That's a perfectly defensible position, and you are welcome to your interpretations.

You are, however, hereby drummed out of this fraternity of d3 fanatics!

[robberki]

I wonder if Gensler wants to play the role of Jimmy Chitwood and ride to the rescue of Millikin 'Hoosiers' style? Something to think about...

[north central]

Rob  lets hope so. But if he did do that would coach smith take him back? I would not bet on it.

[cciwgrad]

memory tester for a CCIW division III superstar??

For those that are old enough to know...  Jack Sikma [IWU 77']... dominate player !!
a superstar??... maybe not... for me it's a word too highly used. 
But any division III player that has a that solid NBA career... got to be really "Good".

As for Gensler.. I'm sure Smith will do whats best for the program as well as whats best for his players.
It's too early, but I think he can turn that program around... and please!!!... this not a slam on the previous coach.  Don't know enough about the past to provide a valid opinion there.

[Gregory Sager]

And Sager as usual great research and details but all i was trying to say was that I have played on four years of college ball and coached high school or college for another 6 and I usually see 5-7 people drop off. It may not be the norm but thats my experience. 

It's not the norm in the CCIW. Consider the fact that NPU was rock-bottom during Brenegan's first two seasons, and a second-division team last season. The teams most likely to hemorrhage players from their rosters during the school year are the teams that are going nowhere -- and yet NPU's only lost seven players total in the August-to-January period during Brenegan's three seasons as head coach. I would wager that the other seven schools in the league have similar, or better, retention records during those three years.

CCIW programs just don't lose that many players between August and January.

That comment was not intended to disrespect anyone ,its just that when i hear the word superstar i think great NBA player with lots of endorsement deals, not D 3 all americans.

I think context is important... anyone who is dominant in a division, region, conference, and even team could be considered a superstar. 

I'd be willing to argue that these great D3 players are greater superstars than NBA players in that they are so talented athletically while still putting academics and other concerns first. 

Regardless, I'd be careful about the use of "superstar."  A multi-year D3 All-American would probably meet my standards.

That's just it -- the standards are completely subjective. There's no objective semantic baseline to distinguish what constitutes a superstar. It's open to individual interpretation. Over the past 24 hours we've had four completely different interpretations offered in this room as to what constitutes a superstar. If twelve more people chime in with their two bits about superstars, I bet that we'll have twelve more different interpretations to add to the list.

A couple of years ago Bob made a point in CCIW Chat about certain guys being "impact players". I remember thinking that his interpretation of what constituted an impact player was much more generous than mine. I thought about posting a comment along those lines, but then I thought better of it. Where is it written that an impact player has to play x number of minutes, score y number of points, and grab z number of rebounds? Bob's interpretation of the term is just as valid as mine. Same with my interpretation of "superstar" as compared to TK's and Mark's.

For my money, a guy who basically carries his team on his back as a freshman and a sophomore, makes the All-CCIW team both of his first two years, and is on the road to 1,700 career points and a prominent place in his school's record book (a record book that delineates a long and distinguished basketball tradition at that school), meets my criteria for superstar status. It may not meet yours. But that's an argument that never gets settled, which is kinda what's fun about this chat room, anyway. Right?

BTW:  Far too many acts have been inducted into the Rock and Roll HOF.

Since it's a worthless institution, even one inductee was one too many.

I wonder if Gensler wants to play the role of Jimmy Chitwood and ride to the rescue of Millikin 'Hoosiers' style?

Only if Coach Smith runs the picket fence.

[kenoshamark]

The Carthage Basketball Roster is now up on their website:

http://www.carthage.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/#

Doesn't appear that Shannon Adams enrolled?

Bosko's son Steve's bio is quite interesting to read....he had one heck of a high school career and an outstanding senior year.  He should have a terrific college career as well -he has the ability to play the 1, 2 or 3 spots.

[Titan Q]

The Carthage Basketball Roster is now up on their website:

http://www.carthage.edu/athletics/mens/basketball/#

Doesn't appear that Shannon Adams enrolled?

Bosko's son Steve's bio is quite interesting to read....he had one heck of a high school career and an outstanding senior year.  He should have a terrific college career as well -he has the ability to play the 1, 2 or 3 spots.

Thanks Mark.

Carthage has 15 freshmen and 14 are guards.  The tallest freshman is 6-4 F Phil Lange.

Andrichik 6-1 G
Cieski 6-1 G
Cotton Jr 6-0 G
Cyscon 6-2 G
Derrick 6-0 G
Djurickovic 6-3 G
Hicks 6-3 G
Howard Jr 6-0 G
Klink 6-3 G
Lange 6-4 F
Lawrence 5-9 G
Paeth 6-1 G
Parnther 6-1 G
Weel 6-1 G
Worsley 6-2 G

In the sophomore and junior classes there are 10 guards and only one player taller than 6-4 (6-6 soph Richard Williams, who only played 15 varsity minutes as a freshman).

[Mr. Ypsi]

Hey!  I thought IWU patented the 5-guard ploy!