MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[north central]

Martin having played and coached at the d 3 level I know we lose a ton of kids every year that could help programs out. The fact is that if you dont absolutely love the game then d 3 is not for you. Many kids would rather go to a big school and party rather than go to a smaller d3 school and play.As long as d 3 is non-scholarship that will be the case.
And I dont think U of Chicago would be stretching to let someone in with a 29 act. Thats a great score.

[AndOne]

Martin having played and coached at the d 3 level I know we lose a ton of kids every year that could help programs out. The fact is that if you dont absolutely love the game then d 3 is not for you. Many kids would rather go to a big school and party rather than go to a smaller d3 school and play.As long as d 3 is non-scholarship that will be the case.
And I dont think U of Chicago would be stretching to let someone in with a 29 act. Thats a great score.

I personally know 2 players who scored a 29s on the ACT, and will be frosh basketball players in the CCIW this year. At least one strongly considered Univ of Chicago, applied, and was granted admission, but chose the CCIW instead. I believe the 2nd player also considered Wash U, another highly esteemed academic institution. So its no stretch at all that someone with a 29 would be at U of Chicago---especially if that applicant was also a good basketball player!

Also, who ever said that you have to go to a big school to party? I played in DIII, and we both played and partied hard. I suspect its still that way throughout much of D!!! land.            
 

[tjcummingsfan]

I think the important part of the equation for these players w/ 29's on the ACTs was not that score, but the basketball.  As a non-athlete, or non-collegiate athlete I 'm sure my 29 would not have gotten me into U of C, it barely got me in to the U of I. 

[Titan Q]

Jong Lee was the point guard who led Stevenson High School to a fourth place finish in Class AA last year.  The Tribune gave this description of him:
"The senior guard has perhaps one-fourth (Derrick) Rose's ability but combined skill with fearlessness to lead a Stevenson team of modest athletic gifts to the Class AA basketball Final Four."

He was heading to the University of Chicago.  He decided against that and I heard he is at the University of Wisconsin - Madison.  Just going to school, not playing hoops.

I saw him play in person a few times last year - my brother's kids go to Stevenson.  I thought he would be a very good DIII player.  He was a very good student - although I think Chicago stretched to admit him, his ACT was only 29 (GPA 4.1 on a 4.0 scale).

I realize going to Chicago may have scared him but I think a lot of other DIII schools - including most if not all of the CCIW - would have welcomed him.  How many kids like Lee do we lose every year?  Are there a lot of kids playing intramural hoops at Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc who could be having a nice DIII hoops career?

I'm pretty familiar with the ACT's and academic credentials of players recruited by (and admitted to) both Illinois Wesleyan and U. of Chicago (there have been a bunch over the years), and Chicago letting in a basketball player with a 29 ACT is not a stretch for the Maroons.  A regular student with "only 29" - I assume yes, that is a stretch for U. of Chicago (maybe a big stretch).  A good basketball player - no.

[Gregory Sager]

Jong Lee was the point guard who led Stevenson High School to a fourth place finish in Class AA last year.  The Tribune gave this description of him:
"The senior guard has perhaps one-fourth (Derrick) Rose's ability but combined skill with fearlessness to lead a Stevenson team of modest athletic gifts to the Class AA basketball Final Four."

He was heading to the University of Chicago.  He decided against that and I heard he is at the University of Wisconsin - Madison.  Just going to school, not playing hoops.

I saw him play in person a few times last year - my brother's kids go to Stevenson.  I thought he would be a very good DIII player.  He was a very good student - although I think Chicago stretched to admit him, his ACT was only 29 (GPA 4.1 on a 4.0 scale).

I realize going to Chicago may have scared him but I think a lot of other DIII schools - including most if not all of the CCIW - would have welcomed him.  How many kids like Lee do we lose every year?  Are there a lot of kids playing intramural hoops at Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc who could be having a nice DIII hoops career?

Lee would have been a very good player for Chicago, and I'm sure that Mike McGrath is crushed that he lost him.

Martin, there are far too many good high school players who would excel in D3 who have chosen instead to walk on at a high-level D1 school and play so few minutes in their four years of eligibility that they can count them on their fingers -- or who don't make the cut as a walk-on, or eschew the walk-on process altogether, and wind up playing intramurals. Seems like a waste to me, when someone who really loves the game and is better at it than at least 90% of all of the other high school basketball players in the country would have the chance to continue his career in uniform playing at the D3 level. But you can't force someone to play basketball, and for a lot of those kids D3 just doesn't sound like a palatable alternative. Too many of them think that there's no difference between D1 intramurals and D3. Their loss, I guess.

[Gregory Sager]

Official practices start this week for D3 basketball. Any Midnight Madness festivities occurring out there in CCIW-land? North Park is planning to hold a somewhat belated coming-out party on Saturday, October 27 (two weeks from today) at 7 pm in the crackerbox. It will be held in conjunction with the championship game of NPU's annual 3-on-3 tourney.

Should be a great time. The Vikings need to do a better job of getting the campus excited about basketball this year -- especially since they're going to put a pretty good team on the floor this season -- and this sort of kickoff festivity is the right way to do it. NPU didn't have a Midnight Madness (or even a 7 pm Madness  ) last season, and it definitely would've helped spur student interest which, as it turned out, lagged all season.

[cciwgrad]

Regarding MU....
Also hearing Gensler is out.  the more that come out, it really may be a good thing for both side. And yes there are some freshman class issue, but heard it's not any "key" players.  I believe Coach Smith needs [and is trying] to start fresh and set high expectations.  It will take some time but short cuts rarely work.

Regarding IWU...
Looks like the start is being highly touted.  Expectations are very high and they really appear to be taking thing serious from day one.

[north central]

Jong Lee was the point guard who led Stevenson High School to a fourth place finish in Class AA last year.  The Tribune gave this description of him:
"The senior guard has perhaps one-fourth (Derrick) Rose's ability but combined skill with fearlessness to lead a Stevenson team of modest athletic gifts to the Class AA basketball Final Four."

He was heading to the University of Chicago.  He decided against that and I heard he is at the University of Wisconsin - Madison.  Just going to school, not playing hoops.

I saw him play in person a few times last year - my brother's kids go to Stevenson.  I thought he would be a very good DIII player.  He was a very good student - although I think Chicago stretched to admit him, his ACT was only 29 (GPA 4.1 on a 4.0 scale).

I realize going to Chicago may have scared him but I think a lot of other DIII schools - including most if not all of the CCIW - would have welcomed him.  How many kids like Lee do we lose every year?  Are there a lot of kids playing intramural hoops at Illinois, Wisconsin, Michigan, etc who could be having a nice DIII hoops career?

Lee would have been a very good player for Chicago, and I'm sure that Mike McGrath is crushed that he lost him.

Martin, there are far too many good high school players who would excel in D3 who have chosen instead to walk on at a high-level D1 school and play so few minutes in their four years of eligibility that they can count them on their fingers -- or who don't make the cut as a walk-on, or eschew the walk-on process altogether, and wind up playing intramurals. Seems like a waste to me, when someone who really loves the game and is better at it than at least 90% of all of the other high school basketball players in the country would have the chance to continue his career in uniform playing at the D3 level. But you can't force someone to play basketball, and for a lot of those kids D3 just doesn't sound like a palatable alternative. Too many of them think that there's no difference between D1 intramurals and D3. Their loss, I guess.

Sager I think the point is that those kids dont really love the game cause if they did they would play d 3 . Most of the time those kids would rather go to a u of i or ill state  because school would be more fun to them  . Thats what i have seen over the years

[Gregory Sager]

Sager I think the point is that those kids dont really love the game cause if they did they would play d 3 . Most of the time those kids would rather go to a u of i or ill state  because school would be more fun to them  . Thats what i have seen over the years

I don't agree with that at all. I think that in many, many cases this sort of decision can be attributed to a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the brand of basketball offered on the D3 level, a lack of enthusiasm that often tends to stem from ignorance. As a very vocal defender of D3 I've had so many conversations over the years with former high school athletes who went to Big Ten, MAC, and Gateway/Missouri Valley Conference schools and never played a college sport that I can practically predict by now what they're going to say when I mention D3 athletics:

* "D3? There were basketball teams in my intramural league at Purdue/Illinois/Bradley/whatever that could kick the ass of any D3 varsity team."

* "D3? That level's a joke."

* "Comparing D3 football to D1 football is like comparing Pop Warner to high school football" (I got that response once in spite of the fact that I wasn't even comparing D3 football to D1 football in the first place.)

* "D3? That's like playing high school ball all over again, except that you have to pay an arm and a leg to do it."

* "Heck, my high school gym's better than any D3 gym I've ever seen ... and we had more fans than any D3 team does, too."

* "I'll take St. Joe's/Westinghouse/Schaumburg/Thornwood/name-your-local-prep-poison over any D3 team any day of the week. You're telling me that a good high school team with three future D1 scholarship players wouldn't walk all over a D3 team?"

* "D3? If the players in D3 were any good, someone would be giving them scholarships to play ball somewhere. At least in NAIA they'll pay your way to go to school, even though the hoops on that level stinks, too."

* "Why should I pay $30,000 a year just to dunk on some nerd who's on his way to becoming a dentist or an accountant?" (I loved that line; it was so ignorant on so many levels that you could peel it like an onion.)

I could go on and on. I'm sure that a lot of us have heard this sort of talk before; the fact that frequently it's former high school athletes that make such statements is particularly telling. Saying that they "don't really love the game" is a subjective judgment based upon a presumption of insight into the innermost desires of other people that we just can't make unless it's someone whom we know very well. I'm sure that plenty of them "love the game" and would've greatly desired to keep playing it.

But, like any other voluntary activity, it's a matter of cost and reward. The cost is, usually, a truckload of debt incurred from playing at a private school with no athletic scholarship compensation on top of the expected physical and mental costs in time and energy devoted to playing a sport while in college. The reward is largely unknown to them, because D3 sports are largely unknown. The vast majority of D3 student-athletes past and present will tell you that they derived great satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment from working hard and putting on the uniform to represent their schools, and that their games were plenty exciting enough to make all those many sacrifices worthwhile ... even if they played their games in front of a handful of parents and significant others and their teams never got mentioned in the local paper or TV news sports segment. But the typical high school student-athlete doesn't always see these rewards, or he sees it and remains unconvinced. Remember, when you're 17 and trying to decide where you're going to go to school, and you're talking to people from various colleges, it's hard to filter out the sincerity from the propaganda.

It's very often not a lack of "love of the game" at all that keeps these high school athletes from going D3. It's quite often either ignorance or a high degree of skepticism that's spurred by tiny gyms or stadia coupled with sky-high tuitions.

[AndOne]

OK, here we go------

A little Philosophy 101-----

I'd like to submit that, contrary to the belief that many who could be very good/great D3 players don't end up doing so because they don't love the game, many of the players of this ilk love the game TOO MUCH. Their "love" of the game blinds them from the reality that while they were/are outstanding high school players, they are NOT D1, or probably even D2, players. That "love" clouds the reality that D3 is indeed the place they belong. That "love" breeds the arrogance displayed by a player who exhibits the attitude that "D3 isn't good enough for me."

How many times have we seen an athlete eschew D3 to walk on at a higher level when all this exercise in futility does is effectively end their career playing a game that they truly love? Their "love of the game" distorts a clear vision of reality and, in its place,  arrogance and ignorance come to the front.

I'm reminded of a 5'10" 160 pound point guard that was recruited by virtually all the CCIW schools following the 04-05 season. The kid could dribble, pass, and hit the three with regularity. He could probably either be starting or be the first guard off the bench for several of our CCIW teams this season. But no, he was determined, even though he was 5'10" and 160 lbs, and not super quick, that he was a D1, even a low D1 player. His answer was to try to walk on at Eastern  Illinois. Needless to say, he didn't make the team, and has never been heard from again. His insistence that he was a D1 player effectively ended his playing the game I'm certain that he loved very much. 

[Titan Q]

An article on the Titans as they prepare to start practice this week...

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2007/10/15/sports/doc4712d2797a663295738533.txt


It sounds like Andrew Gilmore's prognosis has changed for the worse in the last few weeks.  Rehabbing from patellar tendonectomy surgery on both knees in the off-season, Gilmore is still not close to being ready.  That seems to leave the shooting guard spot wide open for the Titans heading into practice.

Brian Nussbaum, who can't seem to avoid injury, caught an elbow in a pick-up game and suffered a broken nose...he'll be ready in about 2 weeks.

Sophomore point-guard Sean Dwyer, still rehabbing from the first broken foot last year (November 18) is getting closer, but probably won't play until 12/1.



As Ron Rose says in the Pantagraph article, things appear to be wide open heading into the start of practice Wednesday -- as wide open as any IWU team I've ever seen. 

[Titan Q]

Here is a video documenting a recent Phoenix Hagen game (the team Zach Freeman plays for in Germany).  Not a lot of Zach in the video but a real good look at what the atmosphere is like...

http://www.werthmedia.de/spielbericht.php?id=2

Zach had his career high as a professional this weekend, with 15 points (4-5 FG) in a win...

http://www.phoenix-hagen.de/index.php?area=1&p=news&newsid=24


Sounds like he is doing well so far.

[north central]

Sager I think the point is that those kids dont really love the game cause if they did they would play d 3 . Most of the time those kids would rather go to a u of i or ill state  because school would be more fun to them  . Thats what i have seen over the years

I don't agree with that at all. I think that in many, many cases this sort of decision can be attributed to a distinct lack of enthusiasm for the brand of basketball offered on the D3 level, a lack of enthusiasm that often tends to stem from ignorance. As a very vocal defender of D3 I've had so many conversations over the years with former high school athletes who went to Big Ten, MAC, and Gateway/Missouri Valley Conference schools and never played a college sport that I can practically predict by now what they're going to say when I mention D3 athletics:

* "D3? There were basketball teams in my intramural league at Purdue/Illinois/Bradley/whatever that could kick the ass of any D3 varsity team."

* "D3? That level's a joke."

* "Comparing D3 football to D1 football is like comparing Pop Warner to high school football" (I got that response once in spite of the fact that I wasn't even comparing D3 football to D1 football in the first place.)

* "D3? That's like playing high school ball all over again, except that you have to pay an arm and a leg to do it."

* "Heck, my high school gym's better than any D3 gym I've ever seen ... and we had more fans than any D3 team does, too."

* "I'll take St. Joe's/Westinghouse/Schaumburg/Thornwood/name-your-local-prep-poison over any D3 team any day of the week. You're telling me that a good high school team with three future D1 scholarship players wouldn't walk all over a D3 team?"

* "D3? If the players in D3 were any good, someone would be giving them scholarships to play ball somewhere. At least in NAIA they'll pay your way to go to school, even though the hoops on that level stinks, too."

* "Why should I pay $30,000 a year just to dunk on some nerd who's on his way to becoming a dentist or an accountant?" (I loved that line; it was so ignorant on so many levels that you could peel it like an onion.)

I could go on and on. I'm sure that a lot of us have heard this sort of talk before; the fact that frequently it's former high school athletes that make such statements is particularly telling. Saying that they "don't really love the game" is a subjective judgment based upon a presumption of insight into the innermost desires of other people that we just can't make unless it's someone whom we know very well. I'm sure that plenty of them "love the game" and would've greatly desired to keep playing it.

But, like any other voluntary activity, it's a matter of cost and reward. The cost is, usually, a truckload of debt incurred from playing at a private school with no athletic scholarship compensation on top of the expected physical and mental costs in time and energy devoted to playing a sport while in college. The reward is largely unknown to them, because D3 sports are largely unknown. The vast majority of D3 student-athletes past and present will tell you that they derived great satisfaction and a sense of accomplishment from working hard and putting on the uniform to represent their schools, and that their games were plenty exciting enough to make all those many sacrifices worthwhile ... even if they played their games in front of a handful of parents and significant others and their teams never got mentioned in the local paper or TV news sports segment. But the typical high school student-athlete doesn't always see these rewards, or he sees it and remains unconvinced. Remember, when you're 17 and trying to decide where you're going to go to school, and you're talking to people from various colleges, it's hard to filter out the sincerity from the propaganda.

It's very often not a lack of "love of the game" at all that keeps these high school athletes from going D3. It's quite often either ignorance or a high degree of skepticism that's spurred by tiny gyms or stadia coupled with sky-high tuitions.

Good point Sager and Titan Q  I think bottom line is that if Division 3 offered something more tangible and more obvious( ie: scholarships,monetary benifits, celebrity, fame, tv exposure, ) than the joys of basketball, the feeling of being on a team, the competition  and other reasons then it would be more popular.
But Sager you must admit even though many of those reasons for not playing are stupid some are good points. Many good high school gyms are better than D 3 and a few teams could beat some d 3 teams.  Good to hear you guys viewpoints because I have seen d 3 basketball from all angels as a player, coach, and broadcaster.

[Mr. Ypsi]

On another board a poster talked about 'walk-ons', and someone (Smedindy?) pointed out that (with no scholarships or letters of intent) technically ALL d3 players are walk-ons.  I responded that it was still a useful distinction, differentiating recruited players from those who truly were discovered on campus (whether open tryouts, dominating IMs, etc.).

So, Ron Rose (and hopefully his interpreter Q!) - what exactly is a 'recruited walk-on'?!  Was Rose simply very honest with the kid: 'I'd really like you to come and I'll give you an honest chance, but frankly your chances of seeing the floor much are slim'?

[north central]

On another board a poster talked about 'walk-ons', and someone (Smedindy?) pointed out that (with no scholarships or letters of intent) technically ALL d3 players are walk-ons.  I responded that it was still a useful distinction, differentiating recruited players from those who truly were discovered on campus (whether open tryouts, dominating IMs, etc.).

So, Ron Rose (and hopefully his interpreter Q!) - what exactly is a 'recruited walk-on'?!  Was Rose simply very honest with the kid: 'I'd really like you to come and I'll give you an honest chance, but frankly your chances of seeing the floor much are slim'?

Mr Yipsi   a recruited walk on is just what you explained Ron Rose said to the kid. A recruited walk on would be the d 1 equivalent of a preferred walk on,  someone who the coaches know about and probably lightly recruited but has little chance of getting playing time. or it could be a kid that contacted the coaching staff first who they knew about prior to arriving on campus. Actually the term walk on is now being used at the high school level  which is outragous considering 8th graders are now getting recruited.

(Editted for quoting format by Titan Q)