MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

CCIW.org has the last 8 All-Conference teams online...

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/past_mbb_seasons.php

Here are the # of seniors on the 3 teams combined for each season (obviously there are 15 total All-CCIW players each year):

2007 - 9
2006 - 8
2005 - 4
2004 - 7
2003 - 8
2002 - 5
2001 - 8
2000 - 8

Here are the current stats of those starting seniors that Greg mentioned above:

Jordan Delp - 15.3 ppg
Dain Swetalla - 10.5 ppg, 4.3 rpg
Trey Bowens - 22.0 ppg, 3.3 rpg
Darius Gant - 15.3 ppg, 8.5 rpg
Jason Gordon - 7.3 ppg, 3.3 rpg
Neb Franciskovic - 2.0 ppg, 2.7 rpg

Based on how things play out this year, it wouldn't be out of the question to see as few as 4 seniors on the 2008 All-CCIW team.  It is still very early obviously, but it does appear the Class of 2008 is extremely thin.

[Greek Tragedy]

While the WIAC is traditionally the best league in Division III, last year its champion (Stevens Point) lost at home in the 3rd round of the tournament. 

With Krull, Stevens Point lost in the 3rd Round of the tournament last year at home.

Come on Bob, you're killing me.  That's twice you've said that and you're making it sound like they lost to a bunch of scrubs! lol...I mean, it was Washington U!  They did go to the Final Four and they were preseason #1 this year.  Give 'em a little break. 

Old School

As a long time Point fan, you are just being humble.   Point will not lose 4 conference games this year in my view.   they have everyone back and better but Krull. 

Believe me, Krull is a huge loss.  Oshkosh looks real good, Whitewater has a bunch of solid transfers and basically a new player in Rob Perry (hurt last year) and he's a stud.  Platteville also gets what amounts to a stud recruit in Jeff Skemp, who was hurt last year as well.  The WIAC title is hardly a cake walk this year.

I think Elmhurst's narrow loss on the road at Oshkosh is encouraging for the Blue Jays. Oshkosh is a solid contender for second place in the WIAC.

Honestly, speaking of humble pie here.  Elmhurst was preseason ranked #18, moved up to 13th and Oshkosh hasn't even gotten any votes yet.  Elmhurst, in at least an even conference as the WIAC, was picked 2nd, while Oshkosh was picked 4th and lost three senior starters.  Not sure what Elmhurst lost.  So, to say that a loss to Oshkosh on the road, who isn't even near being ranked, while they are 13th and picked higher in their conference, is "encouraging"...I think it would be considered more disappointing.

[sac]

I still mantain that physically Stevens Point was the best looking team at that sectional.  The only flaw I saw was a short bench.

They just couldn't buy a basket, and WashU was just on a magical run.

[Greek Tragedy]

I still mantain that physically Stevens Point was the best looking team at that sectional.  The only flaw I saw was a short bench.

They just couldn't buy a basket, and WashU was just on a magical run.

We had and have no inside game.  Ruths killed us...I don't think it had anything to do with our short bench.  Anyway, back to THIS year! lol. 

[usee]

(Unless, of course, Kent Raymond is considered a senior this year...but he is listed as a JR on the Wheaton roster.)

well, he didn't make it on the AA team last year so what makes you think he will this year? 

[cardinalpride]

Old School

As a long time Point fan, you are just being humble.   Point will not lose 4 conference games this year in my view.   they have everyone back and better but Krull.   I agree with your perspective on Marsh.  He was the difference last year when Oshkosh stopped LU three year run.  He slashes to the basket very well.

Point is rated number 2 in the country for good reason (unlike Oshkosh two years ago).   They are as good as anybody and better than anybody in the CCIW this year.(IMO).

Nut

That's a bold statement when you haven't seen every team in the CCIW let alone the country!

[cardinalpride]

(Unless, of course, Kent Raymond is considered a senior this year...but he is listed as a JR on the Wheaton roster.)

well, he didn't make it on the AA team last year so what makes you think he will this year? 

Usee,
IMHO, Kent Raymond's absence from any of those AA teams was a big time error by the D3hoops selection committee!

[Gregory Sager]

I think Elmhurst's narrow loss on the road at Oshkosh is encouraging for the Blue Jays. Oshkosh is a solid contender for second place in the WIAC.

Honestly, speaking of humble pie here.  Elmhurst was preseason ranked #18, moved up to 13th and Oshkosh hasn't even gotten any votes yet.  Elmhurst, in at least an even conference as the WIAC, was picked 2nd, while Oshkosh was picked 4th and lost three senior starters.  Not sure what Elmhurst lost.  So, to say that a loss to Oshkosh on the road, who isn't even near being ranked, while they are 13th and picked higher in their conference, is "encouraging"...I think it would be considered more disappointing.

You sure put a lot more stock in these early polls than I do, Tom. My advice is: Wait a couple more weeks before we decide that either Elmhurst or UW-Oshkosh is legit.

Elmhurst has, as I said in the interconference room, an absolutely dynamite inside-outside combo in Ruch and Burks. And the other inside players, particularly the rapidly-improving Rob Strzemp, are quite effective as well. But that backcourt right now is a fistful of question marks. This Elmhurst team lost an All-CCIW point guard in '07 senior Brian Lee, and a very good backup and potential successor at that position in Pat Bacon (who declined to suit up for the 'jays in 2007-08).

I wouldn't say that a last-second, two-point loss by the 'jays in Oshkosh is "encouraging" -- but at the same time, you felt that the 'jays were the favorites in that game, and I insisted that they weren't. Put the early polls and the preseason picks aside. Let's not anoint the Titans as giant-killers before we know whether or not that Bluejays backcourt is likely to gel.

Elmhurst faces Hope down in Orlando on December 19. I'd say that by the end of that game we'll probably have a really good read on the Bluejays.

[Greek Tragedy]

I do put some stock in them.  I mean, the SID polls and the D3hoops polls seem to be more accurate than, say, the D1 football or any D1 preseason poll for that matter.

Like I said, I don't know much about Elmhurst, but if you look on paper, Oshkosh is expected to have a down year and Elmhurst beat Oshkosh last year when Oshkosh had the likes of Gibson and Capelle, two All-Conference players last year, along with Doedens.  As you say, Elmhurst lost two really good players as well...so it's a draw and possibly give the advantage to Oshkosh since they were at home.  But on the other hand, it's like a church service at those games. 

I will admit, I do use the polls as a guage when I don't know much about a team.  On the other hand, Elmhurst is usually a good team and they are in a strong conference!

Besides, Greg, what made you think Oshkosh was so good?

[Gregory Sager]

I do put some stock in them.  I mean, the SID polls and the D3hoops polls seem to be more accurate than, say, the D1 football or any D1 preseason poll for that matter.

Preseason polls really don't mean much once the season has begun and teams actually begin to demonstrate their true colors, rather than what people suspect that their true colors might be, sight unseen.

And the first Top 25 of the season, while actually based upon some hard data, isn't nearly as good a snapshot of the best teams in the nation as are the polls down the road.

Like I said, I don't know much about Elmhurst, but if you look on paper, Oshkosh is expected to have a down year and Elmhurst beat Oshkosh last year when Oshkosh had the likes of Gibson and Capelle, two All-Conference players last year, along with Doedens.  As you say, Elmhurst lost two really good players as well...so it's a draw and possibly give the advantage to Oshkosh since they were at home.  But on the other hand, it's like a church service at those games. 

Elmhurst's gym usually isn't much of a madhouse, either. It certainly wasn't all that raucous last season when the Titans and Bluejays collided in the western suburbs.

Last season Elmhurst beat UWO by three in Elmhurst's gym. This season UWO beat Elmhurst by two in UWO's gym. Doesn't look like much of anything has changed between these two teams at all. The five-point swing can easily be accounted for by the homecourt factor.

I will admit, I do use the polls as a guage when I don't know much about a team.  On the other hand, Elmhurst is usually a good team and they are in a strong conference!

Well, I gave you a pretty good indication of where the Bluejays stood prior to the game, didn't I? As for "usually a good team and they are in a strong conference", don't let such preconceptions guide your thinking. See the team for yourself and judge it upon its current merits, not upon the program's history or the strength of its conference.

Besides, Greg, what made you think Oshkosh was so good?

C'mon, Tom, I could've used the same phrase you did: They're usually a good team and they are in a strong conference!

Actually, I didn't make any statements about UWO one way or the other. I more or less said before the game that UWO ought to be the favorite because the Titans were at home, and I think that Elmhurst's backcourt needs a bit more seasoning before the Bluejays are ready to handle this sort of a situation. As I said, let's check back in a few weeks after the 'jays face Hope, and we'll have a better idea of where Elmhurst stands.

[AndOne]

I think Elmhurst's narrow loss on the road at Oshkosh is encouraging for the Blue Jays. Oshkosh is a solid contender for second place in the WIAC.

Honestly, speaking of humble pie here.  Elmhurst was preseason ranked #18, moved up to 13th and Oshkosh hasn't even gotten any votes yet.  Elmhurst, in at least an even conference as the WIAC, was picked 2nd, while Oshkosh was picked 4th and lost three senior starters.  Not sure what Elmhurst lost.  So, to say that a loss to Oshkosh on the road, who isn't even near being ranked, while they are 13th and picked higher in their conference, is "encouraging"...I think it would be considered more disappointing.

You sure put a lot more stock in these early polls than I do, Tom. My advice is: Wait a couple more weeks before we decide that either Elmhurst or UW-Oshkosh is legit.

Elmhurst has, as I said in the interconference room, an absolutely dynamite inside-outside combo in Ruch and Burks. And the other inside players, particularly the rapidly-improving Rob Strzemp, are quite effective as well. But that backcourt right now is a fistful of question marks. This Elmhurst team lost an All-CCIW point guard in '07 senior Brian Lee, and a very good backup and potential successor at that position in Pat Bacon (who declined to suit up for the 'jays in 2007-08).

I wouldn't say that a last-second, two-point loss by the 'jays in Oshkosh is "encouraging" -- but at the same time, you felt that the 'jays were the favorites in that game, and I insisted that they weren't. Put the early polls and the preseason picks aside. Let's not anoint the Titans as giant-killers before we know whether or not that Bluejays backcourt is likely to gel.

Elmhurst faces Hope down in Orlando on December 19. I'd say that by the end of that game we'll probably have a really good read on the Bluejays.

**If this offends any EC backers, please check with 79jaybird, who I believe knows the Jays as well as anyone, who has already posted in this forum indicating he is fully aware of the Jays early season problems with regard to their guard play.

IMHO, Old School, the problem here is that Elmhurst, right now at least, is in no way, shape, or form the #13 team in the country.

Let me explain my thinking----The reason I don't think EC should be ranked #13 is----Who had they beaten? Powerhouses Simpson, MacMurray, & Eureka have a combined 2-12 record! Granted, EC has a couple of what I consider to be fabulous players---Ruch & Burks. Brett Ruch is almost unstoppable inside, and Ryan Burks can shoot with just about anybody from outside. I believe they are the reason for Elmhurst's lofty ranking. However, the problem is basketball is a team game, and I don't think the remainder of the team is playing well enough to justify a ranking of 13. It would be interesting to hear the opinion of 79jaybird and other EC fans on this.

Also, I'm not giving an opinion without personal observation. I saw the EC-Simpson game. EC had severe problems even getting the ball in bounds on several occasions, let alone getting it over half court. The guards EC employed in the game had 14 TOs

One of the guards on the EC roster that did not play in that game was frosh Marco Macias who I saw play several times last year, and was likely the best HS guard overall----ballhandling, passing, shooting, defense, that I saw play last season. Personally, I think he might be able to help improve the Jays guard play, but as a fan of a rival team, I hope they keep him on the bench.

Make no mistake, Elmhurst is a very good team and will probably improve as the season progresses. ANY team would love to have Ruch & Burks as its base. I just don't feel that their team play so far, coupled with who they've beaten, justifies a #13 in the country ranking.

As GS suggests, lets wait a while before we proclaim them to be worthy of such a lofty position. They DO have the potential, They aren't there just yet though.

[iwumichigander]

(Unless, of course, Kent Raymond is considered a senior this year...but he is listed as a JR on the Wheaton roster.)

well, he didn't make it on the AA team last year so what makes you think he will this year? 

Usee,
IMHO, Kent Raymond's absence from any of those AA teams was a big time error by the D3hoops selection committee!

"... is a senior academically, but is a junior in his athletic eligibility due to sitting out the 2005-06 season (Source: Wheaton College).

Taking a look at this young man's accomplishments 2006-07, I think we could all agree with CP the selection committee missed one.  I would bet any of Wheaton's first four 2007-08 opponents would question whether Mr. Raymond, with an average 24.5 points in 32.8 avg. minutes is All-American!

[AndOne]

NOBODY who sees him play, especially more than once, would question it either, IWU.

[robberki]

CCIW.org has the last 8 All-Conference teams online...

http://www.cciw.org/winter_bball_m/past_mbb_seasons.php

Here are the # of seniors on the 3 teams combined for each season (obviously there are 15 total All-CCIW players each year):

2007 - 9
2006 - 8
2005 - 4
2004 - 7
2003 - 8
2002 - 5
2001 - 8
2000 - 8

that 2001 all conference team is particularly strong, especially at the forward position.

[Titan Q]

Let me explain my thinking----The reason I don't think EC should be ranked #13 is----Who had they beaten? Powerhouses Simpson, MacMurray, & Eureka have a combined 2-12 record! Granted, EC has a couple of what I consider to be fabulous players---Ruch & Burks. Brett Ruch is almost unstoppable inside, and Ryan Burks can shoot with just about anybody from outside. I believe they are the reason for Elmhurst's lofty ranking.

A couple thoughts, AndOne...

1) The rankings at this point of the season are just "best guesses" really, based on how teams did last year and which significant players returned.  Being just 4-5 games into the season, hardly anybody has had a chance to earn their ranking yet.  In fact, it's often not until about late January that the Top 25 poll really reflects results vs other good teams.  Some ranked teams might only face 1 or 2 other Top 25-caliber teams in the regular season. 

2) I can only speak for myself as one of the 25 D3Hoops.com poll voters, but I suspect you are correct -- Elmhurst's lofty ranking is based on the terrific combination of Brent Ruch and Ryan Burks.  This is probably one of top 10 inside/outside combinations in the nation (I actually like it better than Wash U's combo of Troy Ruths and Tyler Nading), and this kind of one-two punch is always going to get voters' attention...for good reason.  As a voter, I'm willing to take a chance on a team with two superstars like this and see if they figure the guard situation out.  Afterall, there just are not many teams that don't have questions at this stage.  Put it this way, if Elmhurst should not be ranked #13 right now, list the 13 teams that deserve to be ranked higher -- pretty hard to do, as that requires a lot of guess work too.


Speaking of inside/outside combinations in Division III, how 'bout Kent Raymond/Andy Wiele?  Wiele's emergence makes this one of the best.

Wheaton
Kent Raymond (6-3/195, Jr) - 24.5 ppg, 3.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, 11-27 (.407) 3-pt
Andy Wiele (6-8/230, Jr) - 21.8 ppg, 9.3 rpg, 37-50 (.740) FG

Elmhurst
Ryan Burks (6-4/185, Jr) - 17.0 ppg, 5.5 rpg, 12-21 (.571) 3-pt
Brent Ruch (6-9/255, Jr) - 21.8 ppg, 9.8 rpg, 37-46 (.804) FG

Wash U
Tyler Nading (6-7/210, Jr) - 20.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 6-12 (.500) 3-pt
Troy Ruths (6-6/220, Sr) - 14.4 ppg, 6.2 rpg, 28-56 (.500) FG