MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

an entire page of Sagerism's. what a special treat for a thursday. 

I'm sitting here in the office at church, trying desperately not to get any work done. And I'm succeeding at it.

As far as "having the horses" as GS put it, I was a little surprised that at least some of the freshmen on the NCC varsity roster, who played so well in defeating a much taller NPU JV squad in triple OT earlier, did not see any action.

Incidentally, although I certainly qualify for the sobriquet "hoops junkie", I can now speak from personal experience that a triple-overtime JV game is a pain in the neck. For one thing, as NPU's scorekeeper for JV games I can attest that it's difficult to keep an orderly book for a triple-overtime game. Since neither NPU's Aaron Schoof nor NCC's Chad Murray were calling a lot of timeouts -- the point is to get a JV game over with as quickly as possible -- and each team is awarded an extra timeout with each overtime period, the officials came over to the table at the start of the third overtime and said to me, "Let's see ... does each team now have ten timeouts left or eleven?"

More importantly, because it is top priority to get the JV game completed in a timely fashion, everyone but the players seemed a little put out by the fact that the two teams kept ending up in a tie when the horn went off. The first OT went the standard five minutes. Before the second OT, Schoof and Murray agreed to make it only a three-minute period. Before the third OT, the two coaches were so exasperated that they told the officials to make it just a one-minute overtime, which is basically only two or three possessions. The officials, no doubt trying to be helpful, suggested that the two teams finish the game by playing "first basket wins" or by having an NPU player and an NCC player shoot a game of H-O-R-S-E.

I don't know about mpg...........but the ppp looks pretty high


ppp=posts per page.

Touche.

[AndOne]

Rogers hacked, hooked, and hammered so often we could not believe he didn't foul out early into the second half. 

Don't forget the flops, what an actor! 

Much has been said about the officiating in last night's NPU-NCC game. The one thing I think BOTH sides can agree on is that it was poor. I previously said the red-haired ref was possibly the worst I've seen this year and GS just opined that he doesn't "think much of his skills." By the way, Official Norris stated directly to one of the NCC players "If I hear one more f---ing word out of you, I'm going to call a technical on you." I might be misinformed on this, but I don't think the refs are supposed to swear at the players.

As a NCC fan, I am not naive nor biased enough to pretend that all the bad/missed calls went against the Cardinals. However, in light of the above statements, additional comments are warranted.

First of all, Matt Rogers, despite his not being what you would call a giant, either in terms of height or body composition, does a huge percentage of his work inside among the grand tetons. Often this results in his getting "locked up" with the opposing defenders. Other times his inside drives result in his tripping over another player in the tangle of bodies underneath or in his being tripped by another player. To suggest that every time Matt ends up on the floor is the result of a "flop" is exceptionally short sited and self serving. It reflects an uninformed opinion about the physicality of play underneath the basket in the sport in general and in the CCIW in particular.

As far as specific calls are concerned--as I said, the Cards no doubt got away with a few good fouls. However, the most egregious calls favored the Vikings. Specific examples include:

1. With approx 1:09 left in the game Matt Rogers is absolutely hammeded underneath by 2 NPU defenders-no call.
2. With approx 29 secs left, Dominique King gets knocked to the floor on a drive to the basket-no call.
3. The call that wasn't made on Reid Barringer's shot with 5 secs left, but which certainly could have been made probably didn't make a difference as the Cards trailed by 4 and as the ball didn't go in, he would have been awarded only 3 free throws. However, there was certainly contact there on the part of the NPU defender.
4. Jason Gordon, while laying prone in the lane very clearly attempts to trip Matt Rogers as play goes the other way on an NCC rebound and break. Gordon had his foot up at least as high as knee level. 
5. Antonio Stevens delivers a 2 handed shove to Rogers chest at nearly center court with a ref standing 2 feet away and looking directly at the pair---no foul called. Everybody in the gym saw it. Should have resulted in an ejection.
6. An NPU player groans so loudly after a foul is called on him that the whole gym can hear it, yet no T is whistled despite the ref standing 2 feet away.

Bad calls in abundance, more to the detriment of NCC than to NPU however.
Bottom line, NPU takes advantage of its opportunities and comes away with the W.
Not an excuse, and it certainly can't be proven, but with Jeremy Williams on the floor, I sense the outcome would have been different. NPU fans--we can agree to disagree on that--and thats all on this game. Goodnight and good news!   

[mr_b]

Incidentally, although I certainly qualify for the sobriquet "hoops junkie", I can now speak from personal experience that a triple-overtime JV game is a pain in the neck. For one thing, as NPU's scorekeeper for JV games I can attest that it's difficult to keep an orderly book for a triple-overtime game.
ppp=posts per page.

I kept the book for that memorable, yet forgettable, double-OT home loss, 98-97, versus Wesleyan in '03.  Here's the box score for the serious fan and/or hoops masochist:

http://www.northpark.edu/athletics/mbasketball/stats/2003stats/mnpu22.htm

I think I used up an entire mechanical pencil on the game: two overtime periods, 15 timeouts, 55 personal fouls, and Wesleyan's unbelievable 35-of-36 from the free-throw line.  I hope I never have to score another game like that!  It was exhausting.

I'm sure Dennis Prikkel has had similarly challenging games at the scorer's table.

[Titan Q]

Incidentally, although I certainly qualify for the sobriquet "hoops junkie", I can now speak from personal experience that a triple-overtime JV game is a pain in the neck. For one thing, as NPU's scorekeeper for JV games I can attest that it's difficult to keep an orderly book for a triple-overtime game.
ppp=posts per page.

I kept the book for that memorable, yet forgettable, double-OT home loss, 98-97, versus Wesleyan in '03.  Here's the box score for the serious fan and/or hoops masochist:

http://www.northpark.edu/athletics/mbasketball/stats/2003stats/mnpu22.htm

I think I used up an entire mechanical pencil on the game: two overtime periods, 15 timeouts, 55 personal fouls, and Wesleyan's unbelievable 35-of-36 from the free-throw line.  I hope I never have to score another game like that!  It was exhausting.

I'm sure Dennis Prikkel has had similarly challenging games at the scorer's table.

IWU 35-36 from the FT line...Camardella has been living with this one for a while now.

[Gregory Sager]

First of all, Matt Rogers, despite his not being what you would call a giant, either in terms of height or body composition, does a huge percentage of his work inside among the grand tetons. Often this results in his getting "locked up" with the opposing defenders. Other times his inside drives result in his tripping over another player in the tangle of bodies underneath or in his being tripped by another player. To suggest that every time Matt ends up on the floor is the result of a "flop" is exceptionally short sited and self serving. It reflects an uninformed opinion about the physicality of play underneath the basket in the sport in general and in the CCIW in particular.

I don't necessarily agree with my fellow NPU fans about the play of Matt Rogers last night. He's a physical player, yes, but for the most part I don't think that he was doing anything out of the norm. This is a very physical league, and the paint in a CCIW game is not a place for the faint of heart. I also don't think that he did any notable hooking or flopping, aside from the one collision he had with Jay Alexander that resulted in Rogers tumbling onto his backside and Alexander picking up a foul. That should've been a no-call, IMHO, because I don't think Jay is physically strong enough to knock Rogers to the floor. Jay is built like the guy who got sand kicked in his face in the old Charles Atlas ads, while Matt is built like the guy who did the kicking.

As far as specific calls are concerned--as I said, the Cards no doubt got away with a few good fouls. However, the most egregious calls favored the Vikings.

I can just as easily point to several egregious calls and no-calls that went in favor of the Cards. F'rinstance, the outrageously bad call by our red-headed friend with which Nick Williams was tagged with his third foul early in the second half, in spite of the fact that Chris Drennan threw him to the ground as Antonio Stevens was missing a free throw. That could've easily been a decisive turning point, because it put NPU's best offensive player on the bench for an extended stretch of the second half. Or the slap to the face that Drennan delivered to Williams that left him momentarily blinded, or the hip check Reid Barringer administered to Jason Gordon in front of the Crazies as Gordon was bringing the ball down the sideline in transition, both no-calls. As for what you saw as the pro-NPU calls:

1. With approx 1:09 left in the game Matt Rogers is absolutely hammeded underneath by 2 NPU defenders-no call.

Agreed. That should've been a foul.

2. With approx 29 secs left, Dominique King gets knocked to the floor on a drive to the basket-no call.

Don't agree. King initiated the contact on that one. He's lucky he wasn't called for a charge.

3. The call that wasn't made on Reid Barringer's shot with 5 secs left, but which certainly could have been made probably didn't make a difference as the Cards trailed by 4 and as the ball didn't go in, he would have been awarded only 3 free throws. However, there was certainly contact there on the part of the NPU defender.

I vehemently disagree with this, as I pointed out last night. Barringer jumped into Stevens in a transparent attempt to draw a foul and get a four-point play in a situation in which his team was four points down with only :05 left on the game clock. He initiated the contact, not Stevens. In fact, Barringer's body was pointed forward at a 45-degree angle when he released the ball, as he jumped right into Stevens's chest.

4. Jason Gordon, while laying prone in the lane very clearly attempts to trip Matt Rogers as play goes the other way on an NCC rebound and break. Gordon had his foot up at least as high as knee level.

Yup, Gordon got away with that one. Several of us sitting behind the NPU bench commented about it.

5. Antonio Stevens delivers a 2 handed shove to Rogers chest at nearly center court with a ref standing 2 feet away and looking directly at the pair---no foul called. Everybody in the gym saw it. Should have resulted in an ejection.

No, it should not have, because what you saw was the retaliation, not the initial action. Stevens shoved Rogers because Rogers had just delivered a stinging forearm blow to the NPU sophomore's solar plexus. This is a case in which the officials should've called a double foul, rather than merely separating the two as they did. Also, it didn't take place at center court -- it took place underneath the west-end basket.

6. An NPU player groans so loudly after a foul is called on him that the whole gym can hear it, yet no T is whistled despite the ref standing 2 feet away.

A technical for groaning? Come on, man. Are you serious? How do you establish either content or intention from a groan?

Not an excuse, and it certainly can't be proven, but with Jeremy Williams on the floor, I sense the outcome would have been different. NPU fans--we can agree to disagree on that

And I certainly do.

[AndOne]

Greg---

The hip check on Gordon was one of the calls I had in mind when I said NCC got away with its share too. However, I thought I remembered it being administered by Raridon, not Barringer.

On the King play, I don't believe the NPU defender had established the position required for a charge to be assessed.

We agree about the Gordon tripping and about Rogers getting hammered.

The Barringer play, if called would have only resulted in *3 FTs and likely would have been a non factor in the final result.

Even If Rogers was guilty of some illegal action initially which evidently wasn't observed by the refs if it did occur, , that doesn't dismiss the fact that Stevens clearly and openly delivered a blast to Rogers' chest which WAS seen by the refs.
The NCC coaches questioned the refs afterwards and were told---"it (the blast to the chest) wasn't a foul because the whistle had blown and the play was over." Thats crazy.

Maybe a grown isn't the right word, but I didn't know what else to call the sound the NPU player made. Ax far as establishing "content or intention" I'll just say the player's reaction came immediately after he was whistled for the personal foul, while he was looking directly at the ref, and was an obvious sign that he disagreed and was disgusted with the call. It was akin to showing up the ref.

In a 6 point, really 4 as the added 2 pts came after an intentional, unintentional foul in the closing seconds, game, I am pretty sure Jeremy Williams' contributions would have made a difference.

As we said---we agree to disagree---which is to be expected. We both make valid points. Besides, what fun would it be, and what purpose would be served if everyone on here agreed with everyone else all the time. Isn't the purpose of the board to exchange information and promote an open discussion among knowledgeable fans?

*edited to change the original 2 to a 3

[Gregory Sager]

Even If Rogers was guilty of some illegal action initially which evidently wasn't observed by the refs if it did occur, , that doesn't dismiss the fact that Stevens clearly and openly delivered a blast to Rogers' chest which WAS seen by the refs.
The NCC coaches questioned the refs afterwards and were told---"it (the blast to the chest) wasn't a foul because the whistle had blown and the play was over." Thats crazy.

The answer that the refs gave to Todd Raridon was a poor one, but then again we agree that it was a poorly-reffed game. But the blow that Rogers dealt to Stevens prior to the Stevens push also took place right in front of the refs. One followed right after the other. Whatever Stevens deserved -- and he certainly deserved at least a personal foul -- Rogers deserved it as well, and the officials were there to see both the initial action and the retaliation.

On the King play, I don't believe the NPU defender had established the position required for a charge to be assessed.

We just don't agree about that one, although I concede that your vantage point was better than mine, since it took place at the east end of the gym.

Maybe a grown isn't the right word, but I didn't know what else to call the sound the NPU player made. Ax far as establishing "content or intention" I'll just say the player's reaction came immediately after he was whistled for the personal foul, while he was looking directly at the ref, and was an obvious sign that he disagreed and was disgusted with the call. It was akin to showing up the ref.

What you consider to be an "obvious sign" was in fact not obvious at all. On the contrary, the circumstances surrounding the foul indicate just the opposite of what you think was the player's intention.

The player (I can't remember if it was Jay Alexander or Antonio Stevens) committed a reach-in foul right in front of the NPU bench -- and, therefore, about fifteen feet directly in front of me -- in the middle of the first half. Reuben Norris whistled him for the foul. The groan was accompanied by the sort of pained facial expression and body language that indicated self-reproach, not disagreement with the ref. He'd been caught with his hand in the cookie jar, and he knew it. The fact that not a word of disagreement was said to the ref by Jay/Tone following the groan, as well as the fact that he didn't interact with Reuben at all after the call was made, support my read of his reaction.

Reuben Norris has refereed thousands of basketball games. He knows the difference between a player expressing disgust with himself over making a mistake, and a player expressing disapproval of an official's call. Nobody was showing up Reuben at all.

The reason why I suspect you're hammering away at this particular incident is because after hearing the groan Todd Raridon immediately jumped up and yelled, "Give him a technical for that!" But if one of Raridon's players had been given a T under identical circumstances, the NCC coach would've gone straight through the roof in outrage -- and rightly so. Same thing for Paul Brenegan if that play had resulted in a technical. Raridon was simply doing what most coaches do -- he was looking to get an edge with the refs.

In a 6 point, really 4 as the added 2 pts came after an intentional, unintentional foul in the closing seconds, game, I am pretty sure Jeremy Williams' contributions would have made a difference.

I simply don't agree, for reasons that I've already stated.

As we said---we agree to disagree---which is to be expected. We both make valid points. Besides, what fun would it be, and what purpose would be served if everyone on here agreed with everyone else all the time. Isn't the purpose of the board to exchange information and promote an open discussion among knowledgeable fans?

Oh, absolutely. This sort of exchange is exactly what this room is for. We're probably boring the non-NPU and non-NCC people to death with it, though. However, they're used to that sort of thing coming from me.

[AndOne]

And from me too, Greg.
Best we put it to bed.

[tjcummingsfan]

Rogers hacked, hooked, and hammered so often we could not believe he didn't foul out early into the second half. 

Don't forget the flops, what an actor! 

First of all, Matt Rogers, despite his not being what you would call a giant, either in terms of height or body composition, does a huge percentage of his work inside among the grand tetons. Often this results in his getting "locked up" with the opposing defenders. Other times his inside drives result in his tripping over another player in the tangle of bodies underneath or in his being tripped by another player. To suggest that every time Matt ends up on the floor is the result of a "flop" is exceptionally short sited and self serving. It reflects an uninformed opinion about the physicality of play underneath the basket in the sport in general and in the CCIW in particular.

I went back and edited my post to read "flop" as Greg was right on pointing out the one I was referring to, where he dove backwards after Jay bumped into him. 

[cardinalpride]

That's a very good point on the North Park bench, And One.  Specifically, I think John Chimino's minutes proved to be key.  He played a big role in the first half, especially with the fouls troubling Alexander and Williams.  Nice to see a newer face make a difference.  The more depth, the better off NP is down the road.

I'd say that NPU is already one of the deeper teams in the league, but the emergence of Chimino is certainly helping in that regard. He's basically taking Jorge Gonzalez's minutes, and while he isn't nearly as athletic as Gonzalez he's a better shooter and is much more experienced.

With the departure of Bruce Durham, Kendall Greer has emerged as the only member of NPU's talented freshman class to currently get varsity playing time. He's not really making an impact yet, but the coaches love him. They think that the sky is the limit for Greer, and my guess is that they're grooming him to fill Jason Gordon's role next season.

I'd agree with that statement!

[cardinalpride]

Had the Vikings had to face a healthy Cards team with Williams and Johnson available, I dare say the outcome probably would have been different. If you doubt that, remember their availability would have given the Cards an even stronger interior presence. And while the Vikings, who don't really feature a strong interior defense by the admission of their own fans and posters, may have been able to throw up an acceptable defense against 2 strong inside players, the chances of their doing so against 3 such players would have been been statistically significantly decreased to the point I believe the outcome would have been different.

I disagree, largely because I don't see Jeremy Williams giving NCC any better offense than it got out of Drennan and Rogers down low, and the things that Williams does best -- low-post defense and defensive rebounding -- are things that the Cardinals got in abundance last night, anyway. NPU came into the game averaging eleven and a half offensive boards per game, and the Vikings only got five of them last night. Plus, North Park's two primary inside scorers, Nick Williams and Jay Alexander, had subpar scoring nights.

The thing I think that NCC missed from not having Williams in uniform (Justin Johnson's really not much of a factor no matter how you look at it) was depth. Rogers and Drennan had to play 36 and 37 minutes, respectively, whereas they were averaging about 27 and 30 mpg* coming into last night's contest. But I didn't see either one dragging at the end of the game, which actually surprised me a bit given that it was only Drennan's second game back since he was injured, and one would figure that fatigue would enter into the picture with him.

I think that if NCC really missed a player last night it was David Twyman. The Cardinals could've used a perimeter player with his athleticism against NPU for matchup purposes.

Also, it's not North Park's interior defense that has been an ongoing concern of NPU posters on CCIW Chat. It's North Park's interior offense that has been (and still is) a major worry.

Besides, we can all play this what-if game. NPU lost its starting PG recently, which means that current PGs Dan Oziminski and Chris Brown are the receipients of battlefield promotions. Plus, North Park lost an interior player in Jorge Gonzalez who is more athletic than anyone North Central has to offer. As you said, you play with what you have.

I don't think that the outcome would've been any different if Jeremy Williams and Justin Johnson had played, although we'll never know.


* Would-be wits, please spare us the "is that city or highway driving?" cracks. It's been done. The acronym "mpg" in basketball means "minutes per game".

We will never know, but it would have been interesting to find out!

[Dennis_Prikkel]

an entire page of Sagerism's. what a special treat for a thursday. 

I'm sitting here in the office at church, trying desperately not to get any work done. And I'm succeeding at it.

As far as "having the horses" as GS put it, I was a little surprised that at least some of the freshmen on the NCC varsity roster, who played so well in defeating a much taller NPU JV squad in triple OT earlier, did not see any action.

Incidentally, although I certainly qualify for the sobriquet "hoops junkie", I can now speak from personal experience that a triple-overtime JV game is a pain in the neck. For one thing, as NPU's scorekeeper for JV games I can attest that it's difficult to keep an orderly book for a triple-overtime game. Since neither NPU's Aaron Schoof nor NCC's Chad Murray were calling a lot of timeouts -- the point is to get a JV game over with as quickly as possible -- and each team is awarded an extra timeout with each overtime period, the officials came over to the table at the start of the third overtime and said to me, "Let's see ... does each team now have ten timeouts left or eleven?"

More importantly, because it is top priority to get the JV game completed in a timely fashion, everyone but the players seemed a little put out by the fact that the two teams kept ending up in a tie when the horn went off. The first OT went the standard five minutes. Before the second OT, Schoof and Murray agreed to make it only a three-minute period. Before the third OT, the two coaches were so exasperated that they told the officials to make it just a one-minute overtime, which is basically only two or three possessions. The officials, no doubt trying to be helpful, suggested that the two teams finish the game by playing "first basket wins" or by having an NPU player and an NCC player shoot a game of H-O-R-S-E.

I don't know about mpg...........but the ppp looks pretty high


ppp=posts per page.

Touche.

real old-timers (older than me) will remember that third overtime games in the IHSA were sudden-death, have to win by two.  One of Dan McCarrell's favorite stories was his sudden-death game winner in triple overtime at Morton HS in the fifties.

DoS

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Physical play - are you kidding?  North Park vs North Central (round 91) might have been physical at times, but there was certainly too much walking the ball up the court for it to be called a really physical game - players on the floor and elbows to various body parts notwithstanding.

I'd like you to meet some of my all-time favorite CCIW ruffians:

One of WETN's basketball sponsors is insurance man Ned Gulbrandsen (who I know personally).  Everybody who played against Ned in his four years in Crusaderland was personally acquainted with his elbows and the floor beneath them.

Then there was Bruce Ator, tight end for the Augustana football team, who played the role of enforcer and resident bouncer for their championship basketball teams of the early seventies.  At the end of a 40-point Augie rout of North Park in 1971 he personally submarined Early Dorsey 20-feet through the air while Earl was driving for a meaningless breakaway layup.  Of course Jim Ryan, the quad-city resident who called most of Augie's games - home and away - back then called a 'charge' on Earl - send Dan McCarrell charging onto the floor.

How about the North Central center (what's his name?), with Bill Warden's outstanding mid-eighties teams, who delighted in blind-siding opposing guards at mid-court when they were trying to guard the Cardinals point-guards.  How many guards did he pummel to the floor with meaningless (and mean picks), while the Cardinals fans roared their approval.

Coach Dick Helm's son, Dave Helm at WHeaton, a resident hatchet man in the late seventies, who everyone loved to hate.

North Park has had a couple of renown: Bruce Swanson, star football quarterback, of the late sixties, and basketball bouncer at the same time - and the player that everyone in the league hated - Ernie Flores, who never met a player in the league he would back down from in 1975-78.

The physicality is all relative - fellas (and gals) - but what makes the league fun - is that history keeps repeating itself and the rivalries and the matchups - and the school's are relatively close to each other - so its possible to see a lot of games.  And its the experiences and the stories and the cast of characters.

Coach Raridon is a pussy-cat compared to former Cardinal coach Bill Warden, who once got "T'ed" up while watching a jayvee game at North Park and kicked out of the gym.

Thanks for the fun posts.

DoS



The list is nearly endless.

[Titan Q]

Another nice Sun-Times "Small Colleges" piece, featuring the CCIW...

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/colleges/746895,CST-SPT-small18.article


''We play Division III basketball at the highest level,'' Djurickovic said. ''The tradition, competition and rivalries in this league are second to none.''

I'm not sure how this weekly column came to be, but it sure is nice to see exposure like this in such a major newspaper.

[Viking Blue]

I agree.  The exposure is great, and I wondered out loud the other night as to why Chicago's papers don't do the CCIW more justice.  Instead, we get to read about Chicago State.  Doesn't make much sense to me.

In my mind (which is dim at times, of course), this goes back to the discussion of community involvement and why North Park has very little.  If people who live in the city have no idea the school exists, it is impossible to raise the type of excitement about D3 sports that exists in B-N with IWU...