MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[sac]

Why does it seem that some NCC fans always contend that the Cardinals are getting the short end of the stick with the officials.  What about the foul against Simmons with no time left last year?  I don't know if I've ever seen a more questionable call than that.  And that game was AT Augie.  It's fine if you think NCC is constantly getting hosed by the officials, but just keep it to yourself.  It gets old reading about it.

I've been playing diplomat all week between opposing sides in the Albion/Calvin game from a week ago.  Both sides think the other got the short of the stick with the officials.  Its all about the shades of glasses you have on and what you want to see and believe to make you feel better.

Bottom line, its not very original content and frankly not much fun to read about every single game night.  I enjoy reading about the CCIW, but as soon as a post gets to officiating I tune it out and move on to the next.

This is the worst call in basketball history, you'll never see a worse one, and be thankfull you don't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouG2UddP3k0&NR=1

[cardinalpride]

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm.

Thirty fouls in a game isn't the norm, but North Central is a physical team. And I don't say that as an attempt to rehash last week's flame war between NPU and NCC supporters. I say it as a compliment.

One of the things that Todd Raridon can do to overcome the talent inequity his Cardinals face in most CCIW games -- an inequity that has been exacerbated by injuries and roster attrition -- is to get them to play solid, hard-nosed defense and to use the muscle of Matt Rogers in the low post on offense. Defensive physicality can be a great equalizer, and in NCC's case I think that it certainly is. The Cards are currently second in the CCIW in fouls committed in league play, behind Elmhurst (which also suffered from a glut of fouls when it played Carthage), and even if you allow for the fact that the Cardinals have played Carthage while two CCIW teams (Millikin and NPU) still have not, NCC would still be a close third in the league in fouls committed:

team	fouls
Elmhurst	104
North Central	101
Millikin	97
Illinois Wesleyan	87
Augustana	83
Wheaton	82
North Park	79
Carthage	74

(I tend to think that Millikin's high total probably has a lot to do with the relative youth of the Big Blue.)

Utilizing rough play may annoy the players and coaches (and fans! ) of other teams, but it's not an indictment to call another CCIW team "physical". As Augustana has proved throughout the Giovanine regime, being physical can most certainly be a virtue. As I do in a lot of other ways, I applaud Todd Raridon for the particular brand of ball that he's drawn from his players this season.

Good point Greg.  I'll also add that styles of play can effect fouls also.  For instance, the top three teams in terms of committing fouls on your list are primarily man to man defensive teams.  While, the two bottom teams on your list, are primarily zone oriented teams.  IMHO, by the end of the year, Millikin will surpass NCC and probably Elmhurst as well in total fouls committed.

[Gregory Sager]

Spoken by a man who spent 3 days rambling on about the treatment of NPU fans by Wheaton security and the correct coaching protocol (thanks for the lesson) for handling a player during a game---No need to change the game plan until the game itself changes---Let's see---27 FT's from a skinny PG vs 15 team FT's for a team with 2 legitimate inside scoring threats ---Seems fair to me

Three days? Check this week's posts again, mon ami. My last posts on either incident that took place at the NPU @ WC game were on Monday night. That's two days, not three. Also, neither topic was in isolation; both were heated discussions that involved multiple posters, so it's not as though I was riding some sort of hobby horse or anything of that nature. I had two passes at each topic, and that was it; I had and have no intention of dragging out either topic for weeks the way that you're dragging out this anti-Djurickovic vendetta. Finally, I was defending a coach's actions in the case of Bill Harris, not lambasting him for something -- riding the refs -- that almost every head basketball coach in America does.

TQ, great response...

I definitely agree, Bob.

Titan Q 1, Late nite 0

[Gregory Sager]

Why does it seem that some NCC fans always contend that the Cardinals are getting the short end of the stick with the officials.  What about the foul against Simmons with no time left last year?  I don't know if I've ever seen a more questionable call than that.  And that game was AT Augie.  It's fine if you think NCC is constantly getting hosed by the officials, but just keep it to yourself.  It gets old reading about it.

I've been playing diplomat all week between opposing sides in the Albion/Calvin game from a week ago.  Both sides think the other got the short of the stick with the officials.  Its all about the shades of glasses you have on and what you want to see and believe to make you feel better.

Bottom line, its not very original content and frankly not much fun to read about every single game night.  I enjoy reading about the CCIW, but as soon as a post gets to officiating I tune it out and move on to the next.

Amen, and very well said. Y'know, I love the Let's Talk MIAA room, because the passion and the sense of community among the MIAA fans who participate in it is second to none among Posting Up conference rooms. But one of my complaints about the folks over there through the years has been that they spend too much time whining about the officiating of their league's games. I always thought that one of the best things about CCIW Chat was the fact that we didn't spend all that much time going back and forth about the legitimacy of foul calls. That's changed this season, and I don't like it one bit -- even though I got sucked into it too after the NCC @ NPU game, and I'm therefore guilty as well.

It's whiny, and it gives the impression that you're blaming the refs if your team loses, even if you put in disclaimers to the contrary. As Sac said, it's inevitable that people will look at reffing through the biased eyes of partisan fans, but I think that a lot of people aren't willing to own up to that particular aspect of their bias. And there are also some people who have difficulty swallowing the truth that their team may not be as good as the team that beat theirs, or that the other team simply played a better game than did theirs on a given night, so latching on to the idea that somehow the refs jobbed their heroes out of a win can be as comforting and reassuring as Linus's blanket.

I can't dictate what we do or don't talk about here, but I would sure love it if we would stop spending so much time arguing about the officiating and more time discussing the plays, the players, and the coaches. Let's leave the yelling at the refs for when we're in the gym, OK?

[Gregory Sager]

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm.

Thirty fouls in a game isn't the norm, but North Central is a physical team. And I don't say that as an attempt to rehash last week's flame war between NPU and NCC supporters. I say it as a compliment.

One of the things that Todd Raridon can do to overcome the talent inequity his Cardinals face in most CCIW games -- an inequity that has been exacerbated by injuries and roster attrition -- is to get them to play solid, hard-nosed defense and to use the muscle of Matt Rogers in the low post on offense. Defensive physicality can be a great equalizer, and in NCC's case I think that it certainly is. The Cards are currently second in the CCIW in fouls committed in league play, behind Elmhurst (which also suffered from a glut of fouls when it played Carthage), and even if you allow for the fact that the Cardinals have played Carthage while two CCIW teams (Millikin and NPU) still have not, NCC would still be a close third in the league in fouls committed:

team	fouls
Elmhurst	104
North Central	101
Millikin	97
Illinois Wesleyan	87
Augustana	83
Wheaton	82
North Park	79
Carthage	74

(I tend to think that Millikin's high total probably has a lot to do with the relative youth of the Big Blue.)

Utilizing rough play may annoy the players and coaches (and fans! ) of other teams, but it's not an indictment to call another CCIW team "physical". As Augustana has proved throughout the Giovanine regime, being physical can most certainly be a virtue. As I do in a lot of other ways, I applaud Todd Raridon for the particular brand of ball that he's drawn from his players this season.

Good point Greg.  I'll also add that styles of play can effect fouls also.  For instance, the top three teams in terms of committing fouls on your list are primarily man to man defensive teams.  While, the two bottom teams on your list, are primarily zone oriented teams.  IMHO, by the end of the year, Millikin will surpass NCC and probably Elmhurst as well in total fouls committed.

That's a good point, CP, and a useful thing to keep in mind when discussing foul totals, but NPU isn't primarily a zone-oriented team. The Vikings will play a certain amount of 2-3 matchup zone depending upon in-game circumstances and certain matchup difficulties, but NPU spends more time playing man-to-man than it does zone.

I also think you're right that Millikin will probably end the season as the CCIW's most foul-prone team. Anyone want to give an over-under for how many fouls the Big Blue pick up against Carthage tomorrow night?

[cardinalpride]

REDMENFAN,
                   Anytime you look at the stats of a team or player then you see a jump by 10 in any area in one game it sends a red flag out and NCC isn't a real physical team with 4 players fouling out, that sir is not the norm.

Thirty fouls in a game isn't the norm, but North Central is a physical team. And I don't say that as an attempt to rehash last week's flame war between NPU and NCC supporters. I say it as a compliment.

One of the things that Todd Raridon can do to overcome the talent inequity his Cardinals face in most CCIW games -- an inequity that has been exacerbated by injuries and roster attrition -- is to get them to play solid, hard-nosed defense and to use the muscle of Matt Rogers in the low post on offense. Defensive physicality can be a great equalizer, and in NCC's case I think that it certainly is. The Cards are currently second in the CCIW in fouls committed in league play, behind Elmhurst (which also suffered from a glut of fouls when it played Carthage), and even if you allow for the fact that the Cardinals have played Carthage while two CCIW teams (Millikin and NPU) still have not, NCC would still be a close third in the league in fouls committed:

team	fouls
Elmhurst	104
North Central	101
Millikin	97
Illinois Wesleyan	87
Augustana	83
Wheaton	82
North Park	79
Carthage	74

(I tend to think that Millikin's high total probably has a lot to do with the relative youth of the Big Blue.)

Utilizing rough play may annoy the players and coaches (and fans! ) of other teams, but it's not an indictment to call another CCIW team "physical". As Augustana has proved throughout the Giovanine regime, being physical can most certainly be a virtue. As I do in a lot of other ways, I applaud Todd Raridon for the particular brand of ball that he's drawn from his players this season.

Good point Greg.  I'll also add that styles of play can effect fouls also.  For instance, the top three teams in terms of committing fouls on your list are primarily man to man defensive teams.  While, the two bottom teams on your list, are primarily zone oriented teams.  IMHO, by the end of the year, Millikin will surpass NCC and probably Elmhurst as well in total fouls committed.

That's a good point, CP, and a useful thing to keep in mind when discussing foul totals, but NPU isn't primarily a zone-oriented team. The Vikings will play a certain amount of 2-3 matchup zone depending upon in-game circumstances and certain matchup difficulties, but NPU spends more time playing man-to-man than it does zone.

I also think you're right that Millikin will probably end the season as the CCIW's most foul-prone team. Anyone want to give an over-under for how many fouls the Big Blue pick up against Carthage tomorrow night?

I assumed, based on some of the postings, that the Park was a zone-oriented team during the conference portion of the season.  I knew they zoned Augie and played a great deal of zone against Millikin.  I'm not sure what happened against Elmhurst but since I had to guess (based solely on Elmhurst's size) I guessed they played a great deal of zone against them as well.  I do know the Park played NCC primarily man-to-man.  Don't know about Wheaton.    However, that's what I get for assuming.  Once again, I stand corrected!   Over and under on Blue vs. Red is 25 fouls on the Blue.  If the game was at Carthage it would be 35. 

[Titan Q]

The Pantagraph article on the IWU/NPU game and some matchup notes...

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/01/25/usports/doc479a92e85486e854703718.txt

http://www.iwuhoops.com/notes08.htm

[tjcummingsfan]

Nike Williams?

[titanhammer]

Due to what I remember about playing against NP...and how they have played the Titans over the years since, I never would have guessed this quote from the article:  "North Park was 4-21 in its first two seasons under coach Paul Brenegan. The Vikings improved to 13-12 last season and are shooting for their first over .500 CCIW record since 1994."

Other random thoughts:
1.  I don't remember hearing such comments about the officiating before the past few years...has the quality declined.  Other than Ripon in the playoffs my Senior year, I don't remember being "homered"...which could be bias on my part.  However, it seemed like Steve Kuehl couldn't be within three feet of their All-American and not get whistled...while they could blast Caldwell and not get a foul.
2.  Do the players know how to adjust to officiating these days?  Know which ones you can converse with...know what you can do in a game after the first five minutes...etc....  I'm sure Mr. Berki knew which games he could use his spin move and which games he could not.
3.  Let's remember the big issue after each night of CCIW play:  if we don't hear about a kid blowing a knee out or other big time injury...it was a good night in the conference.

Good luck and safe travel to everyone on Saturday.

[AndOne]

Why does it seem that some NCC fans always contend that the Cardinals are getting the short end of the stick with the officials.  What about the foul against Simmons with no time left last year?  I don't know if I've ever seen a more questionable call than that.  And that game was AT Augie.  It's fine if you think NCC is constantly getting hosed by the officials, but just keep it to yourself.  It gets old reading about it.

Knarocky---

You are comparing apples and oranges. I made it clear I was talking about this year. I also made it clear the NCC is often unquestionably guilty of the foul, and that some of the disputed calls and non calls alike DO go in their favor. All I said was NCC has been on the wrong side of more than 50% of the questionable calls, and I felt that if you had seen all their games, you would agree. 

[AndOne]

Why does it seem that some NCC fans always contend that the Cardinals are getting the short end of the stick with the officials.  What about the foul against Simmons with no time left last year?  I don't know if I've ever seen a more questionable call than that.  And that game was AT Augie.  It's fine if you think NCC is constantly getting hosed by the officials, but just keep it to yourself.  It gets old reading about it.

What gets old Knarocky is posters like you complaining about what another poster writes!  If you don't want to read it, skip it!

AMEN!

Let me just add a couple of things----

1. Its real easy to label someone a whiner or a person who refuses to accept reality if they make comments of any kind to explain why their team may have lost. However, I don't know any humans who are either right or wrong every time. So next time, consider the fact that guy you're calling a whiner or unrealistic, might just be right---especially if he was there.

2. There are several posters here that I both admire and respect. However, no matter who you are and what your status might be, when you start telling any other poster what they can and can't write about then you've crossed the line. Seems like thats called dictatorship, and I think I read something about that not being a very good way to run things. As Cardinalpride said above, if you don't want to read it, skip it! Remember, there is stuff you've written that many others didn't give a poop about either.

Speaking for myself, I am sometimes certainly guilty of overplaying a hand. For my part, I'll try to improve in that area. I hope a few partners will join me in that  endeavor.

[aceon2]

Can anyone give me a breakdown of Millikin this year?  I know Demby is tough, but what else do they have tonight that will pose a threat to the Redmen? 

[Viking Blue]

Rumor around town is that the CCIW AD's are discussing the possibility of doing away with human referees and using robots.

Whew!

[Titan Q]

Can anyone give me a breakdown of Millikin this year?  I know Demby is tough, but what else do they have tonight that will pose a threat to the Redmen? 

Millikin starts:

(CCIW only stats)

G Mark Patrick (6-0, Jr.) - 8.8 ppg, 2.4 rpg, 2.2 apg
G John Harmsen (6-3, Jr.) - 7.6 ppg, 3.4 rpg
F Tunde Ogunleye (6-2, Jr.) 14.4 ppg, 4.8 rpg
F Robert Rexroade (6-8, So.) - 2.8 ppg, 2.6 rpg
F Joscar Demby (6-7, So.) - 7.9 ppg, 4.7 rpg

Key reserves are:

F Zach Ott (6-7, So.) - 6.0 ppg, 2.8 rpg
G Keanon Harrington (6-0, Sr.) - 4.0 ppg
G Charles Warren (6-2, So.): 4.6 ppg

http://www.millikin.edu/athletics/mbasketball/


Tunde Ogunleye, a transfer who came with Marc Smith from Keystone College, has become a good player.  He is coming off a 31 point, 8 rebound performance (13-19 FG, 4-8 3-pt) at Augustana.  He is a quick and athletic slasher who can also shoot the 3.  Definitely Millikin's go-to guy.

The Big Blue have some great size with 6-8 Rexroade, 6-7 Joscar Demby, and 6-7 Zach Ott, but I don't think they leverage it as well as they could.  Their offense seems to be perimeter oriented, and I think they'd be much better if they pounded it inside more.

A very intriguing matchup in Decatur tonight.  I'd probably set the line at Carthage by 4, but won't be surpised if Millikin wins the game.  I can see Carthage having a tough shooting night at the Griswold and Millikin's size giving the Red Men trouble.  I think Ogunleye may be quick and athletic enough to give Steve Djurickovic problems.

[mr_b]

Nike Williams?

Now those endorsements will really start rolling in.