MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Scream]

Seriously, its been two and a half days... Everyone knows that their was a questionable call at the end of the North Park/IWU game!  I'm also sure that there have been questionable calls at the end of just about every basketball game ever played.  Enough about it...

But today was my first day back on the www since the debacle... 

[aceon2]

Just for some healthy chat:

I have read how the board tends to think that the CCIW isnt down this year, but rather it is just very balanced.  And after giving some thought to this, I would have to say that overall the CCIW is lets just say, not up...

I will do my best to compare last years CCIW teams to this years:

Carthage 11-6 (5-1) vs 06-07 Carthage 16-9(7-7)
This one is perhaps the easiest to say that they have much improved over last year.  But I would tend to say, though they have improved, really by how much?  Steve D is a ridiculous talent and the major reason for the improvement, but after that are they really that much of a different team.  The 06-07 version defeated Hope, Calvin, Lawrence, Grinnell, Gustavus, Augie, NCC and did not have any losses to the likes of East-West or Trinity International.  They had a dominant inside presence with Brian Schlemm and very solid perimeter play.  So honestly how much have they improved?

Augustana 13-4 (4-2) vs 06-07 Augie 22-6(11-3)
I will say this years team is not really even close to last years team.  Although they play very good defense, last years team did the same.  They had a healthy Jordan Delp, a great floor leader in Drew Wessels, a very good shooter in Brusveen, and the "other" Swetella, Nate who was a very solid swing man.  This years team is a solid ball club, but in my opinion would not compete with last years team

IWU 10-7 (4-2) vs 06-07 IWU 11-14 (4-10)
Q and others you would have to help me out on this one, being that I havent seen IWU play.  It sounds as though their Freshmen are playing extremely well, and that they would be considered a much better team than last year.  I dont know if their was a better player in the league last year than Zach Freeman and Andrew Freeman wasnt too bad himself.  From hearsay, Id say just a slight improvement in a weaker overall conference.

Elmhurst 13-4 (3-3) vs 06-07 Elmhurst 21-6 (10-4)
To me this is the one of the easier ones.  Losing an inside presence like Nick Michael, a very solid point guard in Brian Lee, and instant offense in Pat Bacon, I think its evident that Elmhurst is not nearly as good as they were last year.  Last years team was a tournament team, maybe even a final four good team, and should have been at least given the opportunity.  They lost one home conference game compared to this years team who has already doubled that with two home losses.

Wheaton 13-4 (3-3) vs 06-07 Wheaton 17-9 (9-5)
This one is tough because I have not seen Wheaton either this year.  But the likes of Johnnie Standard, John Mohan, and Michael Fiddler lead me to believe that at worst they are a push with the Thunder of this year.

NPU 10-7 (2-4) vs 06-07 NPU 06-07 13-12 (5-9)
NPU has to be better this year.  The question is how much.  How much did players like Williams, Gordon, Alexander, Capalbo, etc.  really improve?  I am impartial as to this one, but maybe Sager and the other Viking fans have some say?

NCC 8-9 (2-4) vs 06-07 NCC 16-10 (8-6)
This one is pretty easy too.  NCC was very very talented last year with the likes of Simmons, Walton, Krumtinger, and Smith.  Its evident that they are not nearly as talented this year.  I would have to give a big edge to last years team.

Millikin 8-9 (1-5) vs 06-07 Millikin 9-16 (2-12)
Although Ogunleye is having a very solid year, I cant imagine that he can score like Drew Gensler.  Gavic, Long, Brock were all very solid contributors to that team.  I think that Millikin team wins 5 or 6, maybe even more in this years league! 

Carthage - slightly improved
Augie - slightly digressed
IWU - slightly improved
Elmhurst - very much digressed
Wheaton - push
NPU - ?? slightly improved
NCC - very much digressed
Millikin - slightly digressed

Overall it is this fans opinion that if you take the 6-8 place finishers of last years conference(NPU, Millikin, IWU) they finish between 3-6 in this years league and that any one of the top 5 from last year would be competing for 1-2 in the league this season.  Just trying to start some discussion to get us to game day on Wednesday...

[aceon2]

i was just rereading my post and i really need to go back to grammar school and figure out when to appropriately use their and there 

[REDMENFAN]

Aceon2- It should be an even more beautiful facility by next season. Lets hope they finish it in time. New floor and brand new seating is what is being planned and hopefully complete by next season.  Carthage is adding quite a bit actually in the next 2 years, including an indoor golf facility, new seating and field turf on Art Keller Field, and a new weight room as well.

[Pat Coleman]

Seriously, its been two and a half days... Everyone knows that their was a questionable call at the end of the North Park/IWU game!  I'm also sure that there have been questionable calls at the end of just about every basketball game ever played.  Enough about it...

But today was my first day back on the www since the debacle... 

Can't take a day off, my man.

[robberki]

Titan Q - it was tied at halftime, it's not like NPU ran in to some sort of buzzsaw in IWU, it's a very evenly matched game. Honestly, if what happened happened down at IWU, we were up one and one of your guys committed a phantom over the back foul that was called while the game-winning shot was going through the basket, wouldn't you be a little mad?

[Viking Blue]

Titan Q - it was tied at halftime, it's not like NPU ran in to some sort of buzzsaw in IWU, it's a very evenly matched game. Honestly, if what happened happened down at IWU, we were up one and one of your guys committed a phantom over the back foul that was called while the game-winning shot was going through the basket, wouldn't you be a little mad?

Of course not, and the reason is simple.  IWU doesn't commit fouls, so there would not be one called. 

They just play a solid 39 minutes and 52 seconds of basketball.

[AndOne]

i was just rereading my post and i really need to go back to grammar school and figure out when to appropriately use their and there 

Its OK aceon2. When that happens all you have to do as far as an explanation is use Denny Crane's 2 magic words, "Mad Cow." Works every time!   

[Titan Q]

Titan Q - it was tied at halftime, it's not like NPU ran in to some sort of buzzsaw in IWU, it's a very evenly matched game. Honestly, if what happened happened down at IWU, we were up one and one of your guys committed a phantom over the back foul that was called while the game-winning shot was going through the basket, wouldn't you be a little mad?

Well, my curiosity finally got the best of me Rob, so I went to the Shirk Center today to watch the film.  After watching it about 15 times between slow and regular speed, I left even more disappointed in the posts here by North Park fans, including you.  I'm actually most disappointed in some of your comments, as you say you've seen the tape...yet you still say there was a "phantom over the back foul that was called while the game-winning shot was going through the basket."  That couldn't be more inaccurate and I don't understand how someone who has seen the tape could claim that.

The final play breaks down like this (the clock can't be seen in the video, but these times are close):

:08 - With the score 56-55, Jay Alexander misses his second FT long and right.

:07 - Jay Alexander grabs the rebound and comes down.

:06 - Alexander elevates over everyone on the floor and misses a point-blank 5-foot shot from the middle of the lane badly (hits the backboard hard, then the front of the rim and bounces about 3 feet from the basket in the lane).

:04 - Alexander gets a piece of the batted ball, (again, about 3-4 feet away from the hoop, slightly on the left side) and puts up a tip attempt without ever having more than just one hand on the ball.

:03 - As that rebound is coming down right under the basket on the left side of the rim, IWU's Sean Johnson is standing in perfect rebounding position (he gets lucky to be in the perfect spot on the floor to get the board).

:03 - Nick Williams jumps directly into Johnson from behind, bumping him forward (which you can clearly see on the tape).  In the absence of the contact, Johnson easily grabs the rebound.

< :03 - Immediately as the contact is made - not more than a split second after - the official closest to the play (on the baseline near the corner or the gym at the end of NPU's bench) blows his whistle and raises his arm to indicate the foul call.

:01 - With the officials right arm raised and the official walking towards the action to communicate the call, Nick Williams finally gathers the ball he tipped backwards and towards the left baseline (finally collects it - hasn't even begun to shoot it).

:01 - As Williams is collecting the ball, IWU's Sean Johnson is turned and starting to walk towards IWU's end of the floor, clapping...knowing what has been called.

< :01 - Williams shoots the 10-foot baseline jumpshot and makes it.

:00 - The official immediately waves it off. 

* The officials sent the wrong IWU player to the FT line.  It was clearly Sean Johnson who was fouled - not Jordan Morris.

* I was completely wrong about the gameclock not starting on-time.  The entire sequence seems to take just over 8 seconds.  I sincerely apologize for suggesting there was a "hometown clock." 


To say it was a "phantom over the back foul that was called while the game-winning shot was going through the basket" is inaccurate and misleading.  While I'm sure IWU and North Park supporters could watch that tape all night long and debate whether or not the foul should have been called, what can't be disputed is that the official clearly made the call a full 2 seconds before Nick Williams even took the final shot.  End of discussion on that.

As far as the foul goes, people can talk about "swallowing the whistle" in the final seconds, but that foul "created an advantage" for North Park - without it, Sean Johnson has the rebound.  At any point of the game, first minute or last, that is a foul.

After watching that tape, I'm convinced Greg's reference to the '72 Olympics is about the most over-the-top comment I've ever read here and that you, Rob, didn't spend a whole lot of time watching that tape very carefully.

[79jaybird]

Aceon good posts, and I agree that up to now EC is really showing the need for a solid Point Guard which Brian Lee provided so well last year.   Teams are double/triple teaming Ruch inside and when they kick the ball out for an open look, many times nobody wants to shoot the ball.  This was especially evident in the final 2 minutes of OT vs. Wheaton Saturday.  Burks, Childs, (earlier in the year) Saris, etc.  all have had open looks and they elect to pass it off instead of shoot.
The remarkable ability of Ruch still manages to score inside when he is double/triple teamed, but you can't expect a guy to be very effective when he has 3 guys all over him.  Others have to step up and that is what is lacking so far.

[Titan Q]

Also, why do you keep saying 39 minutes and 52 seconds?  What was the score at halftime again? Hyperbole.

So there's nothing in the first 20 minutes of the game North Park could have done to improve on its tie score with the visiting Titans?  Not the 3-11 shooting from the beyond the arc (including Jay Alexander's 0-3)...not the 4 turnovers in the final 6 minutes of the half...not doing a little better job on IWU's Sean Johnson, who scored 8 points in the first 10 minutes? Nothing?

I keep referencing the first 39 minutes and 52 seconds because there appears to be absolutely no accountability being taken here by North Park fans for coming into the final 8 seconds of a home game (vs the team picked to finish 7th in the preseason poll) down 2 points.  You said there was a "legitimately terrible call which directly took a W away from us and gave it to IWU.  I don't care to whom your allegiance lies, you can't deny that Park had the game won (as Nick buried the clutch j) and it was taken from us."  There are many more reasons your team lost the game than one official's call on a rebound with :02 left, including the fact that your player missed the FT that would have tied the game!

[usee]

Well, my curiosity finally got the best of me Rob, so I went to the Shirk Center today to watch the film. 

The Zapruder film has emerged! Q, was there a "shooter" in the grassy knoll? Did Sean Johnson's head move "back and to the left"? I believe we should convene the Carlson Crazies Commission and start a complete investigation.

this is good stuff, please don't delete any of this Pat!

[Titan Q]

Well, my curiosity finally got the best of me Rob, so I went to the Shirk Center today to watch the film. 

The Zapruder film has emerged! Q, was there a "shooter" in the grassy knoll? Did Sean Johnson's head move "back and to the left"? I believe we should convene the Carlson Crazies Commission and start a complete investigation.

this is good stuff, please don't delete any of this Pat!

Sean Johnson clearly did move back and to the left -- back and to the left - after the foul by Williams.  And the "magic basketball theory" is also in play here - a ball went through the hoop legally, according to North Park fans, even though shot a full 2 seconds after a foul was clearly whistled.

[aceon2]

I dont know if anybody watched the WVU/Georgetown game and Pat Ewing Jrs block at the end of the game, but for those who did it was a call that could have gone either way as to a block or a goaltending call.  After looking at the tape its still not quite conclusive.  Most would say goal tend, but I guarantee you Georgetown fans would say it was correctly called a clean block.  Either way my point is that no matter what anyone posts on here the game is over.  IWU won, NPU lost.  Its really as simple as that.  Q, Rob, Sager, etc we could all debate it the rest of the season, but the truth is that you all are looking through somewhat clouded vision being that you all love your teams! I think its great how much passion is on the board for each team, but for heaven sakes this is ridiculous. So can we just agree to disagree, and stop the bickering back and forth.  Cant we all just get along??? 

[robberki]

False! I've watched it repeatedly today, it was a tip drill type play, the IWU player does not have position to actually garner an over-the-back call, they both tried to grab the ball and Williams is simply taller. Check your tape more closely as number 14 holds on to Jay Alexanders shoulder during a put back attempt and shoves Tone with a forearm during his putback attempt...both of which occured before the phantom call. Which, BTW, I have no problem with the ref's not calling because during a last second scrum like that there are always 10 different fouls that could be called but shouldn't be because it's better for ref's to swallow their whistles in that situation.
Also, to make it more conspiracy minded, check out the series before where Alexander actually ends up on the line. The official underneath the basket is Mao (or whatever his name is, the guy that made the call that determined the game) and doesn't call the foul where jay is absolutely hammered, instead the call is made by the rear official near the  NPU sideline. Two plays were called wrong by this official....