MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[AndOne]

I will be watching closely how the IWU guards handle stevie bosko. sean dwyer did a good job on kent raymond, Q will rose put dwyer on Stevie? I think we find out this week if IWU is a contender or a pretender. two huge home games for them. So far they are the real deal. they almost stole one up in kenosha earlier and have a road win against NPU and a home V against wheaton.

Wheaton put a pulse back in their arm with the victory over in elmhurst. they can create a little momentum with their next two home games v millkin and NCC. I think carthage will struggle on the road down the stretch and the team that can gain some confidence and win a road game or two during this middle stretch of the schedule will have a clear advantage the last 3rd of the season

In IWU's overtime loss @ Carthage, freshman Matt Schick and sophomore Sean Dwyer logged the most minutes on Djurickovic.  They did a pretty good job too.  He had 19 points at the end of regulation (6 points in OT), which seems to be a victory against him.

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2008/CRT-MEN.HTM

TQ-----

I was impressed with Dwyer when I saw him play. Now I see discussion above from other posters/fans also praising his play against other teams. Accordingly, since you see all the games and are familiar with the players both offensive and defensive work, I was wondering if you feel he should be getting more minutes instead of either Rosenkranz or Johnson?

[Titan Q]

I will be watching closely how the IWU guards handle stevie bosko. sean dwyer did a good job on kent raymond, Q will rose put dwyer on Stevie? I think we find out this week if IWU is a contender or a pretender. two huge home games for them. So far they are the real deal. they almost stole one up in kenosha earlier and have a road win against NPU and a home V against wheaton.

Wheaton put a pulse back in their arm with the victory over in elmhurst. they can create a little momentum with their next two home games v millkin and NCC. I think carthage will struggle on the road down the stretch and the team that can gain some confidence and win a road game or two during this middle stretch of the schedule will have a clear advantage the last 3rd of the season

In IWU's overtime loss @ Carthage, freshman Matt Schick and sophomore Sean Dwyer logged the most minutes on Djurickovic.  They did a pretty good job too.  He had 19 points at the end of regulation (6 points in OT), which seems to be a victory against him.

http://www.iwu.edu/~iwunews/sports/mbb2008/CRT-MEN.HTM

TQ-----

I was impressed with Dwyer when I saw him play. Now I see discussion above from other posters/fans also praising his play against other teams. Accordingly, since you see all the games and are familiar with the players both offensive and defensive work, I was wondering if you feel he should be getting more minutes instead of either Rosenkranz or Johnson?

Sean Dwyer, Travis Rosenkranz, and Sean Johnson are all very different players. 

* Rosenkranz is the CCIW's assist leader in conference play (4.7 per game with a 2.0 assist/T.O. ratio).  He is a great ball-handler and is extremely quick, allowing him to get by defenders and break-down defenses.  In addition to those assists, he's also averaging 10.5 ppg and 3.5 rpg in CCIW play.

* Johnson is one of the best shooters in the CCIW.  He is tied for 2nd in 3-pointers made with 18 and is .474 from beyond the arc in CCIW play.  Sean is IWU's leading scorer in CCIW games (13.3 ppg).

* Dwyer, like Rosenkranz, is a point-guard.  Sean is a well-built kid with a lot of muscle and can run all day long.  He was a great soccer player in high school and is just a terrific athlete.  He is by far IWU's best perimeter defender and such a huge asset when playing a team with a great guard.  Sean is not a big scorer (6.2 ppg in CCIW play), but he does a lot of very important things well.

All 3 start now.  In the two games since adding Dwyer to the starting lineup, Rosenkranz has averaged 36 minutes, Johnson 33, and Dwyer 31.  I don't think the question is if Dwyer should get more minutes (31 is a ton), but rather should Jordan Morris and Matt Schick work in a little more with the new rotation.  36 minutes per game for Travis is a bunch for a freshman.  That said, IWU's offense runs the best with Travis Rosenkranz on the floor.  I'm all for every single minute he can be out there.

I think Ron Rose is still figuring out how his new rotation should work, but overall, I really like having the 2 point-guards in the starting lineup.  IWU is very small, but it's nice having 2 guys out there who see the floor as well as Dwyer and Rosenkranz.  And Sean Johnson was IWU's starting PG the first 4 games of the season, so he is capable there too.

[cardinalpride]

False! I've watched it repeatedly today, it was a tip drill type play, the IWU player does not have position to actually garner an over-the-back call, they both tried to grab the ball and Williams is simply taller. Check your tape more closely as number 14 holds on to Jay Alexanders shoulder during a put back attempt and shoves Tone with a forearm during his putback attempt...both of which occured before the phantom call. Which, BTW, I have no problem with the ref's not calling because during a last second scrum like that there are always 10 different fouls that could be called but shouldn't be because it's better for ref's to swallow their whistles in that situation.Also, to make it more conspiracy minded, check out the series before where Alexander actually ends up on the line. The official underneath the basket is Mao (or whatever his name is, the guy that made the call that determined the game) and doesn't call the foul where jay is absolutely hammered, instead the call is made by the rear official near the  NPU sideline. Two plays were called wrong by this official....

Rob, what's your rational behind referees swallowing their whistles during close end of the game situations?

[devildog29]

Q, the Titan team I saw out here for 2 games certainly didn't strike me as a team ready to compete for a CCIW championship yet (again at that time in December).  They showed they had a lot of talent, but as a team just weren't quite there, especially on the defensive end.  Six games into the conference season, however, they are certainly in the thick of things.  Not being able to see them play now, I'm curious as to your thoughts on their pleasantly surprising competitiveness.  Is it a case of the young talent gradually learning how to play at the college level?  Is Dwyer getting into the starting lineup the difference?  Is the CCIW just not as talented this year as in years past?  More than likely a combination of all these things?

[tjcummingsfan]

Q I really don't understand why you don't just end this and admit that you'd be just as frustrated if the same had happened to the Titans, that's really all that needs to be said. 

[Titan Q]

Q, the Titan team I saw out here for 2 games certainly didn't strike me as a team ready to compete for a CCIW championship yet (again at that time in December).  They showed they had a lot of talent, but as a team just weren't quite there, especially on the defensive end.  Six games into the conference season, however, they are certainly in the thick of things.  Not being able to see them play now, I'm curious as to your thoughts on their pleasantly surprising competitiveness.  Is it a case of the young talent gradually learning how to play at the college level?  Is Dwyer getting into the starting lineup the difference?  Is the CCIW just not as talented this year as in years past?  More than likely a combination of all these things?

I'd say it's been the freshmen guards settling in, gaining confidence, and really starting to play like upperclassmen, first of all.

Travis Rosenkranz:

Non-conf (11 games): 8.5 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 2.4 apg, 0.79 A:T.O.
CCIW (6 games): 10.5 ppg, 3.5 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.0 A:T.O.

Sean Johnson:

Non-conf (11 games): 9.1 ppg, 2.3 rpg, 2.8 agp, 18-46 (.391) 3-pt
CCIW (6 games): 13.3 ppg, 3.0 rpg, 2.7 apg, 18-38 (.474) 3-pt


Then I'd add Sean Dwyer's presence as being very significant.  The Titans did not have him for the majority of the non-conference season.  He gives them the biggest thing the team was lacking in the early going - a great perimeter defender. 

Finally, I'd say the Titans have gotten very consistent and solid performances out of senior Darius Gant and junior Brett Chamernik in the low post.  Chamernik is averaging 11.8 ppg and 6.8 in CCIW, shooting .627 from the field.  Gant is averaging 10.0 ppg and is second in the CCIW in rebounding (9.3 rpg).


I'd say we really won't know where this IWU team really stands until Saturday evening (after hosting Augie and Carthage), but I do know they are a much different team than they were in November and December.

[robberki]

False! I've watched it repeatedly today, it was a tip drill type play, the IWU player does not have position to actually garner an over-the-back call, they both tried to grab the ball and Williams is simply taller. Check your tape more closely as number 14 holds on to Jay Alexanders shoulder during a put back attempt and shoves Tone with a forearm during his putback attempt...both of which occured before the phantom call. Which, BTW, I have no problem with the ref's not calling because during a last second scrum like that there are always 10 different fouls that could be called but shouldn't be because it's better for ref's to swallow their whistles in that situation.Also, to make it more conspiracy minded, check out the series before where Alexander actually ends up on the line. The official underneath the basket is Mao (or whatever his name is, the guy that made the call that determined the game) and doesn't call the foul where jay is absolutely hammered, instead the call is made by the rear official near the  NPU sideline. Two plays were called wrong by this official....

Rob, what's your rational behind referees swallowing their whistles during close end of the game situations?

it's pretty standard operating procedure really, I've never questioned it. From my time as a little kid all the way through my time as the CCIW's preiminent travelling artist, refs generally swallow their whistles during last second plays for precisely this reason. If someone is absolutely mugged out there then I can see it, but in a scrum at the end you could call 10 different fouls. You just don't see the whistle come out at that point. I'm sure there's nothing in the rule book, it's just one of those unwritten things....

[Viking Blue]

Still waiting on you, Sager....

[Titan Q]

Q I really don't understand why you don't just end this and admit that you'd be just as frustrated if the same had happened to the Titans, that's really all that needs to be said. 

You know, I'd be frustrated, but what I wouldn't do is blame a 2-pt loss on one call.  I'd be frustrated at the team I follow for not playing up to its abilities, or for making some big mistakes, or just not executing down the stretch.  I wouldn't take the easy way out and pin the entire loss on one guy who didn't play in the game and hint at a conspiracy.

At Carthage, with IWU down 1 in overtime with 1:04 to play, Steve Djurickovic went hard to the basket.  IWU's Brett Chamernik slid over and took what looked to be an obvious charge.  It was called a block...and the basket went in.  Talk about a huge swing - from down 1 with the ball, to down 3.  There were two other huge block/charge calls down the stretch of that game.  I didn't mention any of those calls in my post following that game.  I basically said that IWU didn't make the plays they needed to down the stretch, which they didn't.  The Titans had plenty of chances to avoid the situation they ultimately found themselves in.

I also wouldn't be talking about whether or not a shot went in before the horn in a situation where the play was clearly whistled dead well before the shot.

I'd love to drop all of this, but it seems you guys don't want to.  Big game in Kenosha Wednesday, no?

[Pat Coleman]

Unfortunately, we had a similar situation in the Brockport/Rochester game, where the whistle was blown and two seconds later the Brockport player launched the ball and swished it.

Of course the non-shot was not counted. And it was painfully clear even to me, watching on a 320x240 video screen from hundreds of miles away, that the whistle sounded first. But that doesn't mean biased fans can admit it. Or want to.

[Viking Blue]

The discussion of the shot going in before or after the horn was in response to someone ELSE claiming that we had no reason to even argue the call, since the shot WOULD have gone in LONG after the horn.  That was where this all started, so please do not pin it on such "biased" fans.

[tjcummingsfan]

You're right Q, all of your whining the opposite way is much more mature than all the Viking fans... com on man,.  I've been done for days, you keep egging things on.

[Scream]

You're right Q, all of your whining the opposite way is much more mature than all the Viking fans... com on man,.  I've been done for days, you keep egging things on.

What's amazing to me is that everyone wants this conversation to be OVER but only after they get in their opinion. 

Q, don't think that we were ecstatic with how NP played Saturday night.  I think our fans would be some of the first to admit that we'd prefer not having to be in a tight-game situation like we were in.  However, that's not how it works all the time.    Sometimes, you have to win ugly.  The fact is, without the blatantly terrible call, NP would be sitting at 3-3 right now in conference rather than 2-4.  It doesn't matter how great they played or how poor they played the other 39 minutes of the game, without the terrible call by the terrible ref, NP would have won.  That's what we're frustrated with. Sure, we'd love for our team to win every game by 20 but to actually expect every game to not even be a contest, that's just naive.  So don't pretend like it didn't come down to the last play (determined unfortunately by the terrible ref), because it did.  Ideally, it never would come down to that, but at times it does.

[theseguysaregood]

Separate topic, based solely on opinion, so everyone starts from the same perspective (unlike the officiating debates that I think everyone would agree needs to die...at least until after Wed night's games)

I have been a firm believer that the CCIW is down significantly (not marginally as others have implied) this year.  As a point of reference, I don't see any team in the league this year being in the top 4 for the past several years.  I also don't buy the bottom of the league is much better than it has been.

Now the dilema for me...Wash U is again the #1 team in the nation.  The CCIW has direct and indirect reference points with Wash U.  I know that you have to factor in the Sean Wallis injury, but he is still out and they are #1.

For now I still feel the league is down overall and we do not have a team that is close to competing on the national level, but I am at least having some doubt creep into that thought process.

What are your thoughts (with no references to officating allowed)?   

[aceon2]

Separate topic, based solely on opinion, so everyone starts from the same perspective (unlike the officiating debates that I think everyone would agree needs to die...at least until after Wed night's games)

I have been a firm believer that the CCIW is down significantly (not marginally as others have implied) this year.  As a point of reference, I don't see any team in the league this year being in the top 4 for the past several years.  I also don't buy the bottom of the league is much better than it has been.

Now the dilema for me...Wash U is again the #1 team in the nation.  The CCIW has direct and indirect reference points with Wash U.  I know that you have to factor in the Sean Wallis injury, but he is still out and they are #1.

For now I still feel the league is down overall and we do not have a team that is close to competing on the national level, but I am at least having some doubt creep into that thought process.

What are your thoughts (with no references to officating allowed)?   

Theseguys-

I got a laugh outta your post because I tried to do the same thing yesterday.  So Ill repost what I did yesterday and maybe we can get some discussion going not about the refs and the IWU/NP game!

Just for some healthy chat:

I have read how the board tends to think that the CCIW isnt down this year, but rather it is just very balanced.  And after giving some thought to this, I would have to say that overall the CCIW is lets just say, not up...

I will do my best to compare last years CCIW teams to this years:

Carthage 11-6 (5-1) vs 06-07 Carthage 16-9(7-7)
This one is perhaps the easiest to say that they have much improved over last year.  But I would tend to say, though they have improved, really by how much?  Steve D is a ridiculous talent and the major reason for the improvement, but after that are they really that much of a different team.  The 06-07 version defeated Hope, Calvin, Lawrence, Grinnell, Gustavus, Augie, NCC and did not have any losses to the likes of East-West or Trinity International.  They had a dominant inside presence with Brian Schlemm and very solid perimeter play.  So honestly how much have they improved?

Augustana 13-4 (4-2) vs 06-07 Augie 22-6(11-3)
I will say this years team is not really even close to last years team.  Although they play very good defense, last years team did the same.  They had a healthy Jordan Delp, a great floor leader in Drew Wessels, a very good shooter in Brusveen, and the "other" Swetella, Nate who was a very solid swing man.  This years team is a solid ball club, but in my opinion would not compete with last years team

IWU 10-7 (4-2) vs 06-07 IWU 11-14 (4-10)
Q and others you would have to help me out on this one, being that I havent seen IWU play.  It sounds as though their Freshmen are playing extremely well, and that they would be considered a much better team than last year.  I dont know if their was a better player in the league last year than Zach Freeman and Andrew Freeman wasnt too bad himself.  From hearsay, Id say just a slight improvement in a weaker overall conference.

Elmhurst 13-4 (3-3) vs 06-07 Elmhurst 21-6 (10-4)
To me this is the one of the easier ones.  Losing an inside presence like Nick Michael, a very solid point guard in Brian Lee, and instant offense in Pat Bacon, I think its evident that Elmhurst is not nearly as good as they were last year.  Last years team was a tournament team, maybe even a final four good team, and should have been at least given the opportunity.  They lost one home conference game compared to this years team who has already doubled that with two home losses.

Wheaton 13-4 (3-3) vs 06-07 Wheaton 17-9 (9-5)
This one is tough because I have not seen Wheaton either this year.  But the likes of Johnnie Standard, John Mohan, and Michael Fiddler lead me to believe that at worst they are a push with the Thunder of this year.

NPU 10-7 (2-4) vs 06-07 NPU 06-07 13-12 (5-9)
NPU has to be better this year.  The question is how much.  How much did players like Williams, Gordon, Alexander, Capalbo, etc.  really improve?  I am impartial as to this one, but maybe Sager and the other Viking fans have some say?

NCC 8-9 (2-4) vs 06-07 NCC 16-10 (8-6)
This one is pretty easy too.  NCC was very very talented last year with the likes of Simmons, Walton, Krumtinger, and Smith.  Its evident that they are not nearly as talented this year.  I would have to give a big edge to last years team.

Millikin 8-9 (1-5) vs 06-07 Millikin 9-16 (2-12)
Although Ogunleye is having a very solid year, I cant imagine that he can score like Drew Gensler.  Gavic, Long, Brock were all very solid contributors to that team.  I think that Millikin team wins 5 or 6, maybe even more in this years league!

Carthage - slightly improved
Augie - slightly digressed
IWU - slightly improved
Elmhurst - very much digressed
Wheaton - push
NPU - ?? slightly improved
NCC - very much digressed
Millikin - slightly digressed

Overall it is this fans opinion that if you take the 6-8 place finishers of last years conference(NPU, Millikin, IWU) they finish between 3-6 in this years league and that any one of the top 5 from last year would be competing for 1-2 in the league this season.  Just trying to start some discussion to get us to game day on Wednesday...