MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Gregory Sager]

Well, I've calmed down a bit since Saturday, at least enough to spend this evening reading through all of the posts of the last few days.

Bob, you've really disappointed me. Yes, we're all partisan and we all see the game through our own fan biases -- you, me, and just about everybody here. But you're usually at least willing to thoroughly read through other people's posts and treat them fairly. You didn't do that at all this week.

You harped on NPU fans not being accountable because they didn't have anything to say about the first 39 minutes and 52 seconds of Saturday's game. But if you had read my Saturday night post with an eye to finding something other than grist for your own mill, you would've seen that I spent quite a few pixels talking about what NPU didn't do right (and what IWU did do right) in that 39 minutes and 52 seconds. In fact, IWUMichigander excerpted my post and highlighted several lines in which I was critical of the way the Vikings played -- and he did that right before you posted about NPU fans not having anything to say about those 39 minutes and 52 seconds. That was a completely inaccurate and unfair accusation for you to make.

You and Rob are playing dueling tape analysts of the last eight seconds, and that's fine. I mentioned on Saturday night that the NPU coaches had reviewed the game tape and were even more outraged by Mau Cason's call after they'd seen the tape. And it's perfectly conceivable that Ron Rose and his staff have looked at their copy of the game tape and drawn the same pro-IWU conclusions that you have. As I said, we all look at the game through biased eyes -- coaches included.

But can we at least come to the discussion without swords drawn, ready to take on the opposing school (team, coaches, game staff, fans, etc.)? When NPU fans posted after the game, they weren't upset with Illinois Wesleyan at all ... they were upset with Mau Cason. The first thing that you did, however, was to pick a fight with the NPU table staff by accusing them of running a slow clock. You've since retracted that accusation and apologized for it, but that accusation made it clear that you viewed this whole matter from the outset as a partisan NPU vs. IWU issue, rather than as a question of the accuracy or the appropriateness of that final offensive foul call by Cason. And a debate on that accuracy-and-appropriateness issue, which Rob and aceon have touched upon, is actually quite constructive: Should a ref make a game-deciding foul call? When is it appropriate to do so? If so, which ref should make the call (i.e., in what position on the floor should the ref be in order to make that call), and are there certain calls that can be made and certain calls that can't in that situation? All good questions about officiating theory that are worth examining, but they got lost in what quickly degenerated into a typically useless session of partisan bickering.

Believe me, I understand the impulse to roll up your sleeves and start typing furiously in an effort to defend your team. But trust me, Bob ... sometimes it's just better to stay away from the board and let things simmer down for a few days.

[Titan Q]

Here is the archive of the Ron Rose Show from this evening...

http://www.wjbc.com/wire2/podsports/00797_0129IWUBBShow_193609.htm

Ron talks about "the play" at North Park, the season so far, and the upcoming games this week.  Player guests Darius Gant and Doug Sexauer cover many topics, including why Duncan Lawson is the worst dresser on the team.

[Gregory Sager]

Since several questions have been asked about Mau Cason and his relationship to NPU, I'll offer up what I have been told by the Vikings coaching staff and other people connected to the NPU basketball program.

Cason is viewed as a lousy official by both Paul Brenegan and his assistants, and Brenegan has persistently given Cason poor grades in the postgame official evaluations that each head coach fills out and gives to the CCIW's head of officiating, Ken Mazierka. Also, according to the CCIW men's basketball sports guide (Section VIII, paragraph G, subparagraph 1), each head coach is required to send a list of recommended officials from his area who are on the authorized CCIW officiating roster to the league to work his team's games. Cason has most certainly not been on Brenegan's recommended list.

(This is not a recent development; the NPU coaching staff has spoken disparagingly of Cason's abilities on numerous occasions in my presence over the past two or three years, so it's therefore not a secret, either.)

The list apparently has its limitations as an administrative device, because this is the second time this season that Mau Cason has worked an NPU home game. He also did the Knox @ NPU game earlier this month, but I wrote that off as an anomalous appearance because it was a non-conference game. Cason lives in the city and doesn't drive, so if there's any place where it's logical for him to be assigned a game, it's North Park. That consideration obviously overrode Brenegan's veto on Saturday night.

Rob is right that I expressed my misgivings about Cason's presence when I saw him in uniform standing on the sidelines during pregame warmups. I had a definite sinking feeling when I saw him, both because he's a bad ref and because he might've been aware of the fact that Brenegan didn't want him to do NPU games. The coaching evaluations of the officials are supposed to be confidential, of course, but I figured that there was probably a pretty good chance that Cason knew that his professional ability was not respected by Brenegan and the NPU coaching staff.

I am not a conspiracy theorist by nature, and in fact I'm usually the one guy in the room who takes the most jaundiced view of conspiracy theories. I put a lot of stock in Occam's Razor when it comes to explaining suspicious phenomena. I am therefore not saying that Mau Cason deliberately stuck it to NPU when he had the perfect opportunity to do so at the end of Saturday's game. Yes, it might have happened that way, but to me the more plausible explanation in the clear light of day is that he simply made a bad call because his competence as an official is suspect.

One thing's clear: Cason is not welcome in the crackerbox any longer. As Viking Blue said, NPU AD Jack Surridge wanted to speak to Cason after the game, but the refs quickly left the court after the final horn sounded, and Cason left the locker room area afterwards by the far entrance so as to avoid running into anyone from North Park. (I was downstairs in front of Brenegan's office and saw him duck out via the far stairwell.) I think that it will be the last time that Cason sets foot on the NPU campus. If he is ever assigned to a North Park game again, I would not at all put it past Paul Brenegan to simply take his team off the floor and accept a forfeit loss. He feels that strongly about Cason.

[Titan Q]

I need to post this tonight as I won't have much time tomorrow...



Augustana (4-2) @ Illinois Wesleyan (4-2)

Live stats, IWU.edu

WJBC - Bloomington broadcast

Augie webcast  ??


North Park (2-4) @ Carthage (5-1)

Live stats, Carthage.edu

WRJN - Racine broadcast


Millikin (1-5) @ Wheaton (3-3)

Live stats, Wheaton.edu

WETN - Wheaton broadcast


Elmhurst (3-3) @ North Central (2-4)

WONC - Naperville broadcast

WRSE - Elmhurst broadcast

[Titan Q]

Home win = 0 points
Home loss = -1
Road win = +1
Road loss = 0

I was channel surfing over the weekend and saw a bit of the USC/Oregon game.  They had a graphic up with "Floyd Points" - a system used by former Bulls and current USC coach Tim Floyd.  And also by Q.   First question for Q - did you go fishing with Jerry Krause and Tim Floyd?  Have you trademarked your system yet?  What has a better ring - Q Points or Floyd Points?

I'm not sure going fishing with Jerry Krause is such a good idea...unless the boat is really big.

I swear - I've never heard of "Floyd Points."  Just seemed liked the simplest way to illustrate what I was trying to say about all 2-2 records not being identical.  If I can make some money off the deal, I'm all for it.

[79jaybird]

Anybody else think it is rather odd that Carthage is not ranked in the top 25 yet Augustana, Elmhurst, and Wheaton are?
I don't think Carthage is all that upset because right now they are 5-1 and playing the best (well most consistent) basketball out of all in the CCIW. 
Personally, I am surprised that Elmhurst and Wheaton are still ranked because they have looked good at times, and other times looked pretty bad. 

[Titan Q]

The Pantagraph's preview of the IWU/Augie game...

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/01/29/usports/doc479ff8156f332670463195.txt

And a feature article...

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2008/01/29/usports/doc479ff3b66ec2c365038987.txt

[tjcummingsfan]

Here is the archive of the Ron Rose Show from this evening...

http://www.wjbc.com/wire2/podsports/00797_0129IWUBBShow_193609.htm

Ron talks about "the play" at North Park, the season so far, and the upcoming games this week.  Player guests Darius Gant and Doug Sexauer cover many topics, including why Duncan Lawson is the worst dresser on the team.

I thought Rose gave a pretty "fair" (from his side) description of what he saw, and at least offered a hint at the fact that they might have stolen one.  I also like that he admitted that it really depended on what glasses you were watching the tape through as to what you saw.  Really, that's all I wanted to hear.  Glad to know I can respect Ron Rose.

[Viking Blue]

Thank you, Sager.  It was nice to finally get the lowdown on Cason.

It was also nice that someone with "veteran" status finally responds to the irresponsible postings that have been put on this page of late.

I agree with you that this individual, more than likely, did not go out of his way to stick it to NP.  But man, I can understand why Brenegan would be so upset with the lack of administrative capabilities on the part of the officiating system.

He followed protocol, and protocol appears to have stuck it to him.  Guess he's not enough of a veteran to gain respect, either...

[Titan Q]

Here is the archive of the Ron Rose Show from this evening...

http://www.wjbc.com/wire2/podsports/00797_0129IWUBBShow_193609.htm

Ron talks about "the play" at North Park, the season so far, and the upcoming games this week.  Player guests Darius Gant and Doug Sexauer cover many topics, including why Duncan Lawson is the worst dresser on the team.

I thought Rose gave a pretty "fair" (from his side) description of what he saw, and at least offered a hint at the fact that they might have stolen one.  I also like that he admitted that it really depended on what glasses you were watching the tape through as to what you saw.  Really, that's all I wanted to hear.  Glad to know I can respect Ron Rose.

What he implied is that he didn't feel like IWU stole one.

"Do I think we stole one?  I think we won one."

[Mr. Ypsi]

Anybody else think it is rather odd that Carthage is not ranked in the top 25 yet Augustana, Elmhurst, and Wheaton are?
I don't think Carthage is all that upset because right now they are 5-1 and playing the best (well most consistent) basketball out of all in the CCIW. 
Personally, I am surprised that Elmhurst and Wheaton are still ranked because they have looked good at times, and other times looked pretty bad. 

Not really.  The poll voters, after all, look at all games, not just CCIW games, and Augie, Elmhurst, and Wheaton all have much better overall records (and some impressive non-conference wins).  I think it IS a tribute to the CCIW that already last week (when Carthage first took the solo lead), they were receiving votes despite a 9-6 record!  No one else with a record even close to that 'bad' received votes.

[cardinalpride]

False! I've watched it repeatedly today, it was a tip drill type play, the IWU player does not have position to actually garner an over-the-back call, they both tried to grab the ball and Williams is simply taller. Check your tape more closely as number 14 holds on to Jay Alexanders shoulder during a put back attempt and shoves Tone with a forearm during his putback attempt...both of which occured before the phantom call. Which, BTW, I have no problem with the ref's not calling because during a last second scrum like that there are always 10 different fouls that could be called but shouldn't be because it's better for ref's to swallow their whistles in that situation.Also, to make it more conspiracy minded, check out the series before where Alexander actually ends up on the line. The official underneath the basket is Mao (or whatever his name is, the guy that made the call that determined the game) and doesn't call the foul where jay is absolutely hammered, instead the call is made by the rear official near the  NPU sideline. Two plays were called wrong by this official....

Rob, what's your rational behind referees swallowing their whistles during close end of the game situations?

it's pretty standard operating procedure really, I've never questioned it. From my time as a little kid all the way through my time as the CCIW's preiminent travelling artist, refs generally swallow their whistles during last second plays for precisely this reason. If someone is absolutely mugged out there then I can see it, but in a scrum at the end you could call 10 different fouls. You just don't see the whistle come out at that point. I'm sure there's nothing in the rule book, it's just one of those unwritten things....

While, I'm sure many posters share your opinion on "the swallow your whistle" approach to refereeing.  I'm of the opinion that many players, coaches, and fans would like consistency on calls throughout the game from officials.  For instance, the "jump stop" into a shot or pass is sometimes called a travel and sometimes its not.  That's not a problem as long as the inconsistency is not during the same game.  I recently watched a CCIW game and I saw the "jump stop" into a shot called a travel.  A few plays later, the other team had possesion of the ball and their player made the exact same move to the basket and it was not called a travel.  To me, that's poor officiating!  Now, lets take that exact same scenario and fast forward it to the last 30 seconds of a tie game.  Should a referee swallow his/her whistle and risk his/her integrity and professionalism in that scenario?  By the way, both teams scored while utilizing the jump stop but only one team was penalized.  As we have seen already this year, one posession here or there can go a long way in deciding the outcome of a CCIW game.  I know referees are humans and mistake prone just like everyone else.  However, "10 different fouls" would not be committed, as you put it, if the officials called the first one.  They would also make their jobs a lot easier if more verbal communication was given to players throughout the course of the game in regards to post and perimeter play/contact.  Consistency and communication is the key to quality officiating.  Just one man's opinion.....

[tjcummingsfan]

Here is the archive of the Ron Rose Show from this evening...

http://www.wjbc.com/wire2/podsports/00797_0129IWUBBShow_193609.htm

Ron talks about "the play" at North Park, the season so far, and the upcoming games this week.  Player guests Darius Gant and Doug Sexauer cover many topics, including why Duncan Lawson is the worst dresser on the team.

I thought Rose gave a pretty "fair" (from his side) description of what he saw, and at least offered a hint at the fact that they might have stolen one.  I also like that he admitted that it really depended on what glasses you were watching the tape through as to what you saw.  Really, that's all I wanted to hear.  Glad to know I can respect Ron Rose.

What he implied is that he didn't feel like IWU stole one.

"Do I think we stole one?  I think we won one."

It was more the tone and the pause that did it

[cardinalpride]

Separate topic, based solely on opinion, so everyone starts from the same perspective (unlike the officiating debates that I think everyone would agree needs to die...at least until after Wed night's games)

I have been a firm believer that the CCIW is down significantly (not marginally as others have implied) this year.  As a point of reference, I don't see any team in the league this year being in the top 4 for the past several years.  I also don't buy the bottom of the league is much better than it has been.

Now the dilema for me...Wash U is again the #1 team in the nation.  The CCIW has direct and indirect reference points with Wash U.  I know that you have to factor in the Sean Wallis injury, but he is still out and they are #1.

For now I still feel the league is down overall and we do not have a team that is close to competing on the national level, but I am at least having some doubt creep into that thought process.

What are your thoughts (with no references to officating allowed)?   

There wasn't a great team in the CCIW last year either.  Remember, regular season and conference tournament champion Augustana lost at home in Round 1 of the tournament to Carroll.  The top of the CCIW is down from 2005-06, when CCIW tournament #4 seed IWU went to the Final Four and finished 3rd, Augustana won the regular season title, North Central won the conference tournament, and Chris Martin's Elmhurst team was as good as the other 3.  But I don't see any difference in the top this year vs the top last year.

Q,

I agree with you that the overall top 25 might be down a little bit.  I also agree with you that 05-06 was the best year the last three.  But, I would like to take a look at last years top four vs this years top 4. 
Augie 06-07 vs Carthage.  You could say this one is a push being that Carthage has played great thus far in the conference.  But when you take Carthage's non conference and stack that up against Augies from last year, youd probably have to give a slight edge to Augie.  As much as I hate to say it too, I could see Carthage struggling down the stretch in the conference run. 
Elmhurst 06-07 vs Augie.  To me this isnt even close.  I felt that the Bluejays were the best team in the conference last year.  And I felt that they had the quality players to make a run at the final four.  This years Augie team, without Delp, is no where near as good as last years team.  Dont get me wrong they are a very solid team that plays great defense, but that is the system.  They had better players last year.
Wheaton 06-07 vs IWU.  I would still take last years Wheaton team over this years IWU team simply based on experience of guys like Standard, Fiddler, etc.  Maybe Im wrong in this one, but I feel that the Thunder from last year are better than this year.
NCC 06-07 vs Wheaton/Elmhurst.  Although they were often times sporadic.  The talent level on last years NCC team was definitely there.  I would tend to say that either Wheaton or Elmhurst would have a tough time with last years NCC team.  That being said I would say this is a push.
Ultimately, I think that the best team in the league last year wasnt Augie, but rather Elmhurst.  And I would say that either one of those teams wins this league going away.  But, then again, it is the CCIW.  Odds are neither one could win more than 10-11 games just because of how tough a league this really is...

 

Since you've already stated that Wheaton/Elmhurst of 06-07 were better teams than this years version.  I have to add that NCC of 06-07 would be clearly better and not a push with this years Wheaton/Elmhurst because they were 3-1 against the 06-07 group.  Make sense?

[Viking Mike]

Big Game looming for Augie on Wed night...If they still have hopes of staying alive in the CCIW race, a win in Bloomington is crucial.  Here's hoping the Vikings can finally put a strong game together on the road and build on it toward the end of the season.  For Augie to win, I think Swetella needs an aggressive night on offense and  the Vikes will need to hit at 45% or better.  And of course their defense must be suffocating.  The bench will need to provide solid minutes as well.  LET'S GO AUGIE........BEAT THE TITANS!!!