MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[cardinalpride]

With an apology to whoever feels they need one, I'm sorry. However, I just think that if you are at or near the top of a school's all time list in any category, then you are one of the greatest players to ever play at that particular school. We're not talking All Americans here, or even necessarily members of the school's Hall of Fame---of which for NCC I believe there are only 2 basketball players.

I respect your right to disagree. However, if you do, rather than smite me a point for having the audacity to voice my opinion, please explain to me how someone can rank FIRST, or near first, ALL TIME in any statistical category, and not be considered one of the best ever to play at the school. 

Sorry, AO, but as someone who has seen a lot of North Central basketball over the past thirty years I have to agree with Bob and Cardinal Alum.

All-time lists can be deceptive, especially when they're lists of career counting stats (as opposed to career percentage stats), or seasonal stats rather than career stats. Plus, all-time stats don't provide the important contextual question necessary to ask regarding a team sport: Of what sort of teams was that player a part?

Being an all-time leader in games played says something great about a player's durability and general usefulness, but it can also be a case of achievement through negation -- in other words, it may say something about a team not really having anyone better to play that position, or it may say more about roles and team chemistry than it does about star power. F'rinstance, North Park's Jim Clausen (1977-78 thru 1980-81) was at one time the D3 career leader in games played. Clausen was a reliable lunch-bucket power forward on the NPC threepeat national champions who helped Michael Harper, Bud Greer, and Michael Thomas to shine without hardly ever taking any shots himself. His extraordinary number of games played really doesn't offer much in the way of supporting his case as being better than, say, 1986-87 CCIW MOP Michael Starks -- who played the same position for North Park as Clausen had before him, and who only played in about 2/3rds as many career games as Clausen did, but who (unlike Clausen) was an actual superstar worthy of being mentioned for NPU's all-time-greats list.

Nor are single-season records always that indicative of a player's prowess in comparison to players of other eras. The single-season record for trey percentage at NPU is held by Robert Bady, a 5'9 point guard who knocked down bombs at an amazing .571 clip in the 1989-90 season and simultaneously set a CCIW record that still stands by shooting .600 from downtown in league play that year. Bady had plenty of virtues as a player, but he wasn't really a shooter; he had several teammates during his time at North Park who were far more reliable perimeter snipers than he (Dan Hill, Jason Vukas, Curt Lau, Joe Sebek, and Jeff Pearson all come to mind). Bady isn't even in the top fifteen in career trey percentage for NPU. He was simply lights-out for one anomalous season, and an indifferent three-point shooter during his other three seasons in royal blue and gold.

Adam Krumtinger was a solid CCIW role player underneath the basket who made life a lot easier for Dan Walton and Anthony Simmons, but he was no star. No knock on Krumtinger, but I can name several NCC centers you never saw who were better than he was. Adam Teising was, as you say, an exceptionally quick PG and a very useful player, but he was never an All-CCIW player and he didn't deserve to be one. Ray Vicario was a strong all-around player for NCC, but if you're talking about one of the great shooters over the past three decades in this league, he doesn't come to mind. I think that part of his prominence in the NCC record books comes from the fact that, aside from the great Robert Brown, North Central has never been known as a haven for great outside shooters (must be the empty shooting background in the airplane hangar ). No slap at Vicario, whom I liked a lot as a player and would've loved to have seen in an NPU uni instead of NCC red and white, but there's a number of guys who've played his position for the Cardinals over the past thirty years (Tony Jordan, Robert Brown, Yulander Wells, etc.) who were better than he was.

Greg,
Adam Teising was voted all CCIW in '06.  However, I do understand your point.  Also, Mike Roy, Drew Hunter, and Nate Riley come to mind as better players than Ray Vicario.

[Titan Q]

Congrats to Darius Gant on CCIW Player of the Week honors.


Illinois Wesleyan's Gant Named CCIW Men's Basketball Player of the Week

NAPERVILLE, Ill. -- Darius Gant of Illinois Wesleyan was named College Conference of Illinois & Wisconsin (CCIW) Men's Basketball Player of the Week Monday after his performance during the previous week of competition.

Gant, a senior forward from Oswego, Ill., and Oswego High School, averaged 20 points and 17.5 rebounds in two games last week. Gant made nine-of-12 field goal tries and scored 22 points with 20 rebounds and two assists in an 87-77 home win over Carthage on Feb. 2. Gant's 20 rebounds were the most for an Illinois Wesleyan player since Bill Braksick snared 23 vs. LeMoyne Owen on Nov. 20, 1987. It also tied a record for most individual rebounds in a game by a Carthage opponent (set by current Wisconsin-Oshkosh head coach Ted Van Dellen on Jan. 11, 1977). Gant was seven-of-14 from the field and scored 18 points with 15 rebounds and two assists in a 65-61 loss to Augustana on Jan. 30.

2007-08 CCIW Men's Basketball Players of the Week
Darius Gant - Illinois Wesleyan (2/4/08)
Steve Djurickovic - Carthage (1/28/08)
Steve Djurickovic - Carthage (1/21/08)
Nick Williams - North Park (1/14/08)
Kent Raymond - Wheaton (1/7/08)
Tunde Ogunleye - Millikin (12/31/07)
Ryan Burks - Elmhurst (12/17/07)
Andy Wiele - Wheaton (12/10/07)
Brett Chamernik - Illinois Wesleyan (12/3/07)
Brent Ruch - Elmhurst (11/26/07)
Steve Djurickovic - Carthage (11/19/07)

[Naperick]

Thank you Naperick,  I know Coach G on a personal level along with Tom Jesse the Asst. Coach.  Two great guys with a great love for the game. 
The problem with Elmhurst is not coaching and more of the players either A) not executing B) not shooting well  or C) not giving enough effort to win the game(s).  You can live with missed shots and lack of execution, but when the heart and energy are not there, that's the most disappointing.  I know the 2007-08 Jays have enough talent to compete and beat every team in this league, however their inconsistencies and turnovers have obscured this ability.    Furthermore, as I alluded to earlier  teams are playing great defense on Ruch with 2-3 guys, forcing somebody else to step up.  Unfortunately, other than Ryder (especially in the NC game) nobody is stepping up. 
OK no more knocking my own team, just very frustrating to see a team with a lot of talent underachieving.

I didn't mean to imply that Sherer and his staff are not good coaches.  You don't win a CCIW title (2001) if you are a bad coach.  I think Wheaton wrote the playbook on how to play the Bluejays defensively.  Double or even triple team Ruch and give Burks extra attention.  Make someone else beat you.  I agree that energy and toughness are missing at times.  To win in the CCIW, you have to play all out for 40 minutes. 

I will try to be kinder to the 'Jays.  It's hard to stay quiet win your team doesn't play to its potential.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just adding to Q (which I wouldn't normally do here, but I don't know how many ever check the women's board), it was a sweep for the Titans, as Christina Solari also was named CCIW PoW (IWU becoming the first school this year to have 3 different women so honored).  Congratulations to Darius and Christina!

[robberki]

Thanks, Dennis

In your post, you mentioned Nebraska Wesleyan. I graduated from NWU and played basketball there. Hence the picture under my screen name. As I have lived just 5 minutes from NCC in Naperville for several years, the Cards have become my adopted team, especially since 2004 when Todd Raridon came to North Central from Nebraska Wesleyan.

I almost went to NWU....

[AndOne]

With an apology to whoever feels they need one, I'm sorry. However, I just think that if you are at or near the top of a school's all time list in any category, then you are one of the greatest players to ever play at that particular school. We're not talking All Americans here, or even necessarily members of the school's Hall of Fame---of which for NCC I believe there are only 2 basketball players.

I respect your right to disagree. However, if you do, rather than smite me a point for having the audacity to voice my opinion, please explain to me how someone can rank FIRST, or near first, ALL TIME in any statistical category, and not be considered one of the best ever to play at the school. 

Sorry, AO, but as someone who has seen a lot of North Central basketball over the past thirty years I have to agree with Bob and Cardinal Alum.

Adam Teising was, as you say, an exceptionally quick PG and a very useful player, but he was never an All-CCIW player and he didn't deserve to be one.

Greg-----

If you stop for a moment and reconsider your recent CCIW history, I'm sure you'll remember that Teis was an All-Conference CCIW team member in the 2005-06 season.    

[AndOne]

Got to agree with AO on Teising---Have watched the league for many years and he was as close as one could get to being a "true point guard"---He was the engine that made that team very dangerous, made every other player on the floor better and also received the assignment of guarding the other teams best perimeter player night in and night out---Maybe not the stats of some, but a winner in every sense

Well, it looks like I've been outvoted at least 3 to 1 with regard to my post about some of the greatest players at NCC. As all 3 of the posters voicing opposing opinions are more familiar with NCC and CCIW history than I am, and are among the most thoughtful and knowledgeable gentlemen on here, I'm willing to bow to their superior understanding of the subject.

Krum, Teis, & Ray---You guys are still great in my book.

TQ, GS, & CA--Thanks for the history lesson.

Exactly. Late

[AndOne]

Got to agree with AO on Teising---Have watched the league for many years and he was as close as one could get to being a "true point guard"---He was the engine that made that team very dangerous, made every other player on the floor better and also received the assignment of guarding the other teams best perimeter player night in and night out---Maybe not the stats of some, but a winner in every sense

Well, it looks like I've been outvoted at least 3 to 1 with regard to my post about some of the greatest players at NCC. As all 3 of the posters voicing opposing opinions are more familiar with NCC and CCIW history than I am, and are among the most thoughtful and knowledgeable gentlemen on here, I'm willing to bow to their superior understanding of the subject.

Krum, Teis, & Ray---You guys are still great in my book.

TQ, GS, & CA--Thanks for the history lesson.

So closer to a "true point guard", etc. than Dauksas, John Nielson, Tony Bollier, Wessels #1, Antoine McDaniel.....all of whom did everything you describe above plus numbers?

Pete----

1. My contention concerning Adam Teising, as well as the other two NCC players I commented about, had absolutely nothing to do how they compared to all the other players on all the other teams in the history of the CCIW. If you will go back and re-read my original post, you will see that I stated it was my opinion that Teis was "one of the best players ever at NCC."

2. With Simmmons, Walton, Krumtinger, and Vicario as his teammates for most of his tenure at NCC, his primary job functions were to hurry the ball up the court and get the Cards into their offensive flow as quickly as possible on offense, and to play stick to his man in the face defense. It was not to score and put up "numbers" as you said. Any points he scored were a bonus. Possessing a sprinters speed he excelled in this role and was faster with the ball than 99% of players are without it. The players you mentioned were all great names, but as far as Teising's role was concerned, nobody did it better. 

[AndOne]

Thanks, Dennis

In your post, you mentioned Nebraska Wesleyan. I graduated from NWU and played basketball there. Hence the picture under my screen name. As I have lived just 5 minutes from NCC in Naperville for several years, the Cards have become my adopted team, especially since 2004 when Todd Raridon came to North Central from Nebraska Wesleyan.

I almost went to NWU....

I'm sure they would have been lucky to have you rob, and that you would have left your mark on the "other" school (the one where knowledge doesn't start with an N) out there in the "Pleasure Capitol of the Plains," as we affectionately referred to Lincoln.

[Titan Q]

pabegg posted his latest projected regional rankings on the Pool C board...

http://www.d3sports.com/post/index.php?topic=4232.1185

He uses an RPI-style system similar to what the new OWP/OOWP is supposed to be like.  Right now, his Midwest region looks like this:

----------


Reg Conf Rank Prior School                    Natl Status      Reg Overall

MW  74   01   02   Lawrence                  011  A w C       12-2 14-2
MW  90   02   01   Washington U.             015  C 3         11-3 14-4
MW  71   03   03   Augustana                 019  A w C       14-4 15-4
MW  90   04   06   Chicago                   058  C third     11-6 12-6
MW  71   05   04   Wheaton (Ill.)            061  C third     11-5 14-5
MW  71   06   08   Illinois Wesleyan         064  C third     10-6 11-8
MW  71   07   07   Elmhurst                  071              13-5 14-5
MW  74   08   13   Carroll                   082              10-5 11-5
MW  73   09   10   Aurora                    084  B 5         14-4 16-4
MW  76   10   14   Webster                   090              115 13-5
MW  72   11   09   Defiance                  092  A other     126 14-6

Reg        Region
Conf       Conference number
Rank      Regional ranking
Prior       Prior regional ranking
School
Natl     National ranking based on regional results
Status
    B + number: Pool B ranking (top 4 in tournament)
    C + number: Pool C ranking of 17 teams in tournament
    C second: second tier Pool C (spots 18-27)
    C third: third tier Pool C (spots 28-37)
    A w C: Pool A, in likely Pool C range
    A second: Pool A, in second tier Pool C
    A third: Pool A, in third tier Pool C
    blank: lower level Pool C

One week out from the real rankings. Again, I've ranked three more teams per region than will be in the actual rankings, just to indicate the teams that are close.
----------
He has two CCIW teams in the Pool C mix right now -- not in the top 17 of Pool C candidates (that is the # of at-large bids), but at least in the ballpark. 

I'm not sure if the NCAA's new ranking process will really follow pabegg's, but this is pretty interesting.  I think the first real regional rankings come out next week.

[cardinalfanrochelle]

Has anyone checked out the NCAA ranking summary for the CCIW teams?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Has anyone checked out the NCAA ranking summary for the CCIW teams?

The official regional rankings don't come out 'til the 13th.  This is about as good as we've got 'til then.

[sac]

Q-- did you notice that most of the bigger, stronger conference have multiple teams in the Pool C race.  I think the OOWP is at least putting those teams in the conversation when maybe last year a couple wouldn't be.

Can't wait for the first regional polls to see how they matchup now.

[Gregory Sager]

Then Bill Warden returned to his Alma Mater and the resurgence of Cardinal basketball really began with that date.  The 1984 and 1985 Cardinal teams and the 1990 and 1991 Cardinal teams were especially outstanding.  When player that went unmentioned in the recap by others was forward Curtis Hudson, certainly one of the best leapers the league has ever seen.

Hudson's teammate Tony Jordan was probably the single greatest athlete that I have ever seen in CCIW men's basketball. He made Rob Garnes look like ... well, me. He wasn't exactly the greatest team player in the world, though; NCC athletes from that era have told me that Darold Knowles's old quote about his egocentric A's teammate Reggie Jackson -- "There isn't enough mustard in the world to cover that guy" -- would've applied to Jordan as well.

That 1984-85 North Central team that started Kerry Kelley at center, Nate Harris and Curtis Hudson at the forward spots, Tony Jordan at shooting guard, and Greg Papacosta at point guard is on my list of the best half-dozen CCIW teams of the past three decades. They were every bit the equal of their co-champions at North Park who ended up winning the national championship, and four of those five Cardinals (all but Harris) made the All-CCIW team that season. To this day it astonishes me that they petered out so quickly in the tournament.

[Gregory Sager]

Petemcb

I could not agree more regarding Childs.  IMO, he will be a very accomplished PG who happens to score before he is done.   It is a tough transition for someone from being "the" man on their HS team to being a pass first PG in the CCIW.   It takes a few years to make the adjustment and get the self confidence.   He was terrific offensively in HS and will be very solid once he gets over the hump for the Jays.

just my humble opinion.

I think that you hit it on the nose. Switching from a high-school role of being the scorer to being a pass-first point guard in college is a big change, and it can seriously throw off a player's shooting. Childs is hitting less than 32% of his trey attempts this season, and he's a better shooter than that. He's simply adjusting to his new position. NPU's Dan Oziminski is undergoing the exact same transformation, only his problem is slightly different; while Childs's shot has been off, Oz's is still very much on -- but he's not looking for it. He's shooting 45% from downtown on the season, 37% in CCIW play, but he's not on the leaderboard because he hasn't made enough treys -- and that's because he's passed up a lot of open shots, mostly (I think) because he's working his way into the pass-first mentality of a point guard.