MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Titan Q]

Well, it has been a great trip to Salem as usual.  The organizers of the Division III Championship in Salem do such a great job - I hope every D3 fan has a chance to get here at some point.

The two best teams I've seen this year square off tonight for the national championship.  I was absolutely blown away by Amherst and their size.   The Lord Jeffs start:

G Andrew Olsen (5-10/165, Sr)
G Brian Baskauskas (6/6/200, Jr)
F Brandon Jones (6-7/200, Sr)
F Fletcher Walters (6-8/215, Sr)
C Kevin Hopkins (6-10/215, Sr)

The bench includes Matt Goldsmith (6-6/220, Sr) and Mike Holsey (6-6/195, Jr)...and 6-5 Steve Wheeler is injured and did not play last night.

I'm trying to think of a bigger D3 team I've seen from the 2 position to the 5 and can't come up with one.  The '04 and '05 Stevens Point group was huge as well, but not quite as big as the '07-08 Lord Jeffs.  And Amherst's big guys are really versatile.  They can all handle the ball in the open court.

Amherst also has the best pure point-guard I've seen this year in Andrew Olsen. How bout a triple-double in the national semifinal?  (21 pts, 10 reb, 10 assists).

Wash U was extremely impressive last night.  Hope really had no one who could contain 6-6/220 Troy Ruths inside - he finished with 30 pts on 11-15 FG.  As good as Ruths was the entire game, it was a flurry by Wash U's 2-guards that seemed to be the difference in the game.  Sophomore Aaron Thompson scored 15 points in the first 9 minutes of the 2nd half and senior reserve Danny O'Boyle then chipped in with a couple 3's.  In the 2nd half, Wash U took advantage of what Hope gave them (the perimeter) and they knocked down shots.

What's amazing is that Wash U is doing this with their All-American point-guard, Sean Wallis, in street clothes.

Even in a loss, Hope impressed me.  They play great defense and on offense, they move so incredibly well as a team.  The Flying Dutchmen seem to have a number of interchangeable parts - everyone on the floor can, and will, shoot a 3.  What Hope doesn't have though is a dominant back-to-the-basket presence...and someone who can defend a guy like Ruths.  They're just not quite complete enough as a team to win a national championship.

Ursinus did not impress me, but their best player Nick Shattuck (22 pts/game) has injuries to both ankles and is about 60%.  He went an uncharacteristic 3-16 from the field last night.  That said, I just think Ursinus was completely overmatched vs Amherst.  Even with a healthy Shattuck, I don't think that would have been a very close game.

Picks for tonight:

* Hope over Ursinus by 7 in a game they control most of the way.

* Amherst over Wash U by 4 in a great game.

[Greek Tragedy]

its NOT a true NATIONAL tournament no matter how the NCAA (or anyone else) refers to it.

Honestly, how many times does this have to be discussed?  It's about saving money.  Until D3 makes money, the NCAAs are going to save money.  You can't even look at D1 as an example.  North Carolina doesn't even have to leave their own state until the Final Four. 

First thing is first, if you want a TRUE National Tournament.  Get rid of the regional criteria for the NATIONAL tournament.  That bugs me more than playing quads.

[Titan Q]

Congrats to Kent Raymond on being named a 1st Team All-American by D3hoops.com!

Also congrats to freshman Steve Djurickovic on being named to the 4th team (amazing for a freshman) and also Brent Ruch on that same team.  Djurickovic was also named national "Rookie of the Year."

[usee]

good recap Q. I am interested now that you have seen the final 4 teams how you think the CCIW stacks up and if your assessment from earlier this season is still your view. (Obviously the two CCIW teams lost to 2 of the final 4 teams and we have results of Elmhurst and Carthage as well)

[fcnews]

Mr. Sager - On your comparisons of the D3hoops Awards and the NABC Awards. While I must admit that there are quite few of you on this site that heve spent long hours following the D3 game.

I feel the NABC All District teams carry more weight do mainly on the fact of tradition and longevity. The process of picking these two teans seem to favor the NABC.

While there are some great SID's in DIII, most see about eight home conference games and a handful of home non-conference games. Head coaches on the other hand see every game, extra games at tournaments, scouting trips and game films. Based on this alone the coaches have a built in oppurtunity to watch a lot more players. 

I realize some schools in some conferences travel with their teams SID's. In most I don't think this is the norm. In general I don't put alot of weight in your politics comment.

Although I do like the D3Hoops process of when picking an All American Team, let's get the best players available. Instead of rationing by district like the NABC.

There are still a vast number of people that have never heard of this website. So the prestigue of the NABC Awards still carry a lot more weight and significance went speaking of All District or ALL Region.

In my opinion both caught the COY wrong. I don't see how U of C Head Coach Mike McGrath was not an obvious choice. When you consider he won this years top power conference. In a year when they were not picked to really compete for the title.

These are just my opinions. Congrats to the Bears for bringing a title back to the Midwest.

[Greek Tragedy]

In my opinion both caught the COY wrong. I don't see how U of C Head Coach Mike McGrath was not an obvious choice. When you consider he won this years top power conference. In a year when they were not picked to really compete for the title.

Then also consider they lost FOUR games outside the conference (more than they lost IN their conference) and also lost their first round NCAA tourney game. 

[fcnews]

Titan Q- Heard from the SLIAC guys in Salem (hopefan and yjak), they really enjoyed their chat with you. Hope to see you at a couple of games in the STL next year.

[Titan Q]

good recap Q. I am interested now that you have seen the final 4 teams how you think the CCIW stacks up and if your assessment from earlier this season is still your view. (Obviously the two CCIW teams lost to 2 of the final 4 teams and we have results of Elmhurst and Carthage as well)

After watching the games in Salem, I feel good about my season-long theory that 2007-08 was a year marked by parity in Division III.  I think we could make a case for several teams being on about the same level as the national champs.  Augustana, for example, defeated Wash U early in the season and then lost in overtime in the tournament.  Brandeis beat both Amherst and Wash U.  Chicago won Wash U's conference.  Buena Vista took Wash U to overtime at Wash U in the Round of 16 in a game I left feeling like BV was just as talented as the Bears.  You could make a case, in turn, that those teams are pretty darn close to several others based on the results of conference and non-conference games in '07-08.

The reason Wash U cut down the nets is that they played incredibly this weekend...I mean, they absolutely put on a show in Salem.  I had seen the Bears play three times before the Final Four (vs IWU, vs Buena Vista, vs Millsaps) and they played so much better at the Final Four.  Troy Ruths had one of the best Final Four performances  I've seen in my 10 trips to Salem, and as a team, Wash U just executed almost flawlessly.  And the Bears knocked down shot after shot after shot.  In junior Tyler Nading and sophomore Aaron Thompson, Wash U had two great complementary players.  Wash U just looked and played like a national champion this weekend.

While I think Augustana and Wash U would probably split 10 games (Augie beat the Bears early in the year and Wash U won in OT a couple weeks ago), I don't think Augustana could have defeated Amherst.  Augie just did not have enough offensive weapons to do what Wash U did yesterday to a terrific Amherst team.  Wash U won the national championship because they were a team that could survive a physical, defensive type game (@ Augie, vs Buena Vista), or win a shootout (vs Hope and Amherst). 

The CCIW's top teams were not that far away from the level of Wash U and Amherst, but I'm confident that those two teams, at their best, were better because they were more complete.  The CCIW's best all had issues - Augie didn't have enough fire power...IWU was too small...Wheaton didn't have enough depth...Elmhurst struggled at the PG spot.  With 12 or 13 (Raymond?) All-CCIW players returning next year, I think the CCIW might have a banner season next year and produce a couple Final Four-caliber teams.  We'll see who comes back for sure, and more importantly, who comes aboard.

[gordonmann]

I received very interesting insight from the women's tournament selection chair (UW-Stevens Point Coach Shirley Egner) on how they assemble their bracket.  She confirmed that the men and women selection committees are given the same guidelines.  My interpretation is that the men's and women's committees may have some flexibility in deciding how to apply those guidelines to their very difficult task.

Response to my comment on the Howard Payne sectional that brought together four teams from four regions (HPU, Hope, DeSales and George Fox) and why Hope played Howard Payne in the sectional finals:

"Obviously Howard Payne was our overall number one and received the bye because of geographic location.  If you remember, last year we were able to send the Texas teams where they didn't have to play each other and this year we just didn't have that flexibility.  And it came down to Howard Payne or Hope, two undefeated teams who have been one and two in your [D3hoops.com] poll all year but yet we didn't have Hope ranked in their region -- in their Great Lakes region -- they were not the number one team coming into our selection process and that factored into where we ranked them when we tried to go 1 through 16 to be able to balance the bracket.  It didn't have anything to do with being undefeated.  That's great -- that's a great win-loss percentage -- but there's other components of that primary criteria and quite honestly we felt like we got it right."

How much of a geographic constraint does the committee have in handing out byes?

"We only can have X number of flights in that first and second round and again, with the geographic proximity, with the other institutions that are into the tournament, the thing is, is that the West and South are probably always going to have a bye and they are not always going to be our number one team...It all comes down to what teams are in and, if we can figure out how to get around that 500 mile radius and not have additional flights."

Is there a set number of flights that the NCAA gives you for the first two rounds (not the sectionals)?

"Yes, there is."

You're not going to tell what it is, are you?

"No, I'm not."

Egner does a great job as a Coach and a selection committee chair (plus she was amazing in getting us coaches for our post game).  I really appreciated her giving us insight into the guidelines the committee has in putting brackets together.  It would be worth asking the men's committee at some point how they negotiate the limit on flights and whether their philosophy on handing out byes is the same.

[Ralph Turner]

Titan Q, I agree with your parity thoughts and especially the complete team/game concept.

I also came away from this tourney with the impression that the teams in Adminstrative Regions #3 and #4 are just much stronger.  There are isolated pockets of quality in Adminstrative Regions #1 and #2, but #3 and #4 are just stronger teams in overall numbers.

In turn, this makes it harder to build brackets that reflect strong teams at the top.  Amherst had a relative cakewalk.  WashU had slug it out every night.

(The women's strong teams are more distributed, but that is another board.)

[Titan Q]

It would be worth asking the men's committee at some point how they negotiate the limit on flights and whether their philosophy on handing out byes is the same.

I had a lot of time to discuss tournament selection/seeding issues with members of the men's committee this weekend.  Some very insightful conversations with guys like Gary Grace (national chair) and Pat Cunningham.  Those conversation were all "off the record", so I won't post here.  Maybe Dave McHugh can get one of them on Hoopsville again to formally discuss.

What I will tell everyone, however, is that the men's committee is extremely committed to a) getting the best at-large candidates in the tournament, b) building the best bracket possible, and c) pushing for changes that will improve the process.  The members of the national committee are basketball people (some very good basketball people) and they have basketball conversations -- they don't just discuss numbers (in-region winning %, OWP, OOWP, etc).  The big limitation is money - there is no question about that.  Division III is living off D I scraps...and I do mean scraps.  There are things the national committees (men's and women's) would like to do in constructing the bracket, but are limited due to financial constraints involving travel.

I left Salem feeling very good about the people in charge of the process.  They're well aware of what is working and what is not and, most importantly, they're working hard to make it as good as possible.

[gordonmann]

I left Salem feeling very good about the people in charge of the process.  They're well aware of what is working and what is not and, most importantly, they're working hard to make it as good as possible.

I second that whole heartedly and hope it'll be remembered when the good vibrations of national titles wear off and people see next year's brackets on Selection Monday.

[Titan Q]

Surprisingly, Wash U's national title is the first for the Midwest region since 1997 (IWU).  The region has had some great teams since '97 that just did not get it done in Salem - Carthage '02 and IWU '06 come to mind.  And others that never made it to Salem.

The Midwest deals with the same thing the West and Great Lakes do - absolutely nasty roads to Salem (see Augustana vs Wash U in Round 2).  Some of the top teams in the great leagues also suffer from low seeds (and thus nasty tournament roads) due to multiple losses in conference play.

Sometimes out this way, getting to Salem is as difficult as winning once you get there.  In any case, it was nice to see a Midwest team win the title.

[John Gleich]

After watching the games in Salem, I feel good about my season-long theory that 2007-08 was a year marked by parity in Division III.  I think we could make a case for several teams being on about the same level as the national champs.  Augustana, for example, defeated Wash U early in the season and then lost in overtime in the tournament.  Brandeis beat both Amherst and Wash U.  Chicago won Wash U's conference.  Buena Vista took Wash U to overtime at Wash U in the Round of 16 in a game I left feeling like BV was just as talented as the Bears.  You could make a case, in turn, that those teams are pretty darn close to several others based on the results of conference and non-conference games in '07-08.

I totally agree.  Like you eluded to, Wash U had some tough, tough games in early rounds.  They beat Wooster in round 1 by just 5.  In round 2, it was Augie in OT.  Sweet 16 was Buena Vista, again in OT.  BV had beaten UWSP by 1 and St Thomas by 2.  Milsaps, who Wash U beat in the Elite 8, beat Mary Hardin-Baylor by just 1 in the second round. 

Wash U did what they needed to do to take home the Walnut and Bronze this weekend, and congrats to them.  One thing that is certainly true about a team that rises to the top is that they've got to be very good, yes, but there are some intangibles that need to bounce their way, too, and in a year like this year, when it really looks like there were lots of teams at a high level, they played well enough throughout the year to put themselves in a position to win, and then they played great at the right time.

[Gregory Sager]

Mr. Sager - On your comparisons of the D3hoops Awards and the NABC Awards. While I must admit that there are quite few of you on this site that heve spent long hours following the D3 game.

I feel the NABC All District teams carry more weight do mainly on the fact of tradition and longevity. The process of picking these two teans seem to favor the NABC.

While there are some great SID's in DIII, most see about eight home conference games and a handful of home non-conference games. Head coaches on the other hand see every game, extra games at tournaments, scouting trips and game films. Based on this alone the coaches have a built in oppurtunity to watch a lot more players. 

I realize some schools in some conferences travel with their teams SID's. In most I don't think this is the norm. In general I don't put alot of weight in your politics comment.

Although I do like the D3Hoops process of when picking an All American Team, let's get the best players available. Instead of rationing by district like the NABC.

There are still a vast number of people that have never heard of this website. So the prestigue of the NABC Awards still carry a lot more weight and significance went speaking of All District or ALL Region.

While I obviously don't agree with you, I'll admit that "prestige" is a pretty vague criterion for measurement with regard to the two competing All-American teams. Perhaps Pat can speak to the matter of which All-American team draws more media citations, his or the NABC's.

Wash U did what they needed to do to take home the Walnut and Bronze this weekend, and congrats to them.  One thing that is certainly true about a team that rises to the top is that they've got to be very good, yes, but there are some intangibles that need to bounce their way, too, and in a year like this year, when it really looks like there were lots of teams at a high level, they played well enough throughout the year to put themselves in a position to win, and then they played great at the right time.

That's it in a nutshell. The best team in the land isn't always the team that walks away with the Big Doorstop. A team has to be in the upper echelon of D3 in order to win it all, yes, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the best team. Instead, it can be the team that: a) rises to the challenge over that three-weekend period; and b) gets a few breaks along the way in March. The reason why I think it's so difficult to come out of this region and win the national championship is not only because the challenge is stiffer, but also because, relatedly, the lucky breaks are fewer. A team like Amherst can afford a bad bounce here or there in the earlier rounds; as we saw over the past few weeks, Wash U couldn't afford any. I don't think that it's a coincidence that Wash U is the first national champion in D3 history that had to survive two overtime games on its way to cutting down the nets.