MBB: College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin

[Mr. Ypsi]

On the other hand, since most Americans DON'T understand soccer, you're probably right about the lack of scoring being a significant detriment.

I think that Americans understand soccer just fine. Tactically, it's not that much different than its sister sport, hockey, which is plenty popular here in the States. I think that AndOne hit it on the head -- Americans simply don't like sports that are so low-scoring that a 0-0 score is a distinct possibility, and a 1-0 score is commonplace.

Hockey is popular?  NHL ratings are somewhere below those of poker!  The Red Wings/Penguins Cup finals (the most anticipated matchup in years) got ratings that would get programs cancelled on most cable channels!

As a Red Wings fan and soccer fan (and ex-coach), I'll stand by my assertion that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't grasp the intricacies of either game.

Now the indoor vs. outdoor debate (regardless of scoring, per se) IS an intriguing one.  I prefer the full-field strategy options available only in the outdoor game, but I've coached both and the indoor game does have its definite attractions.  My son (the current soccer coach) has a real soft spot for the indoor game - despite taking great pride in shutouts as the defensive leader outdoors, he also quite enjoys scoring 3-4 goals a game from the defensive spot indoors!

[Gregory Sager]

Jason Thompson, Pat. 8)

Jason Thompson wasn't on the '84 Tigers. He was a Pirate at that point in his career.

Sac, I think that the '84 Tiger you should be touting is the pride of Grand Rapids himself, sinkerballer Dave "Karate Kick" Rozema.

I'd mention Rozema's brother-in-law, Kirk Gibson, as well, but since you're a Wolverines fan I suspect that you found it hard to root for a former Spartans wide receiver.

When CBS bought the Yankees, the decline began.

In his book about the 1949-64 Yankees, Dynasty, Peter Golenbock argued that the rot set in long before co-owners Dan Topping and Del Webb sold the Yanks to CBS after the 1964 season, even though that's when the Bronx Bombers stopped winning pennants and began their slide into the oblivion of Frank Tepedino, Ossie Chavarria, Fred "Chicken" Stanley, and the immortal wife-swapping duo of Fritz Peterson and Mike Kekich.

Golenbock's point was that the Yankees were always the best team in baseball because of money (surprise, surprise -- some things never change). Topping and Webb were always willing to pay top dollar for prospects (this was before the amateur draft, remember), and they employed the biggest and best scouting department in baseball. That, plus their cozy relationship with money-strapped owner Arnold Johnson of the Kansas City A's that allowed them to use the A's as a virtual farm team during the 1950s, kept a never-ending stream of great talent moving up through the Yankees system.

However, in 1960 Topping and Webb forced their general manager George Weiss (perhaps the most astute baseball executive in major league history) to retire against his wishes. They then put Weiss's protege, Roy Hamey, in charge of the front office. Neither Hamey nor his successor, Ralph Houk (a man much better suited as a field manager than as a general manager) were able to engineer the sorts of trades that Weiss was so adept at making. More importantly, Topping (the dominant partner) was ill with diabetes and wanted to step away from the responsibility of running the ballclub. He talked Webb into selling two or three years before they actually did sell the club, years in which they searched in vain for a buyer.

Meanwhile, knowing that the Yankees would eventually be somebody else's baby, Topping and Webb cut back on expenses -- the scouting staff was pared, and they stopped offering prospects bigger signing bonuses than everybody else in baseball. In other words, even before the first amateur draft was held in June '65, the Yankees farm system was well on the decline. The last great wave of young Yankees who were promoted to the big league club during the Hamey years were Jim Bouton and Tom Tresh in '62, and Al Downing and Joe Pepitone in '63. After that? Nothing. The only players of note whom the Yankees signed in the '60s after Weiss was let go and the Topping/Webb duo decided to sell the team were Mel Stottlemyre and Roy White in '61, Fritz Peterson in '63, Bobby Murcer in '64, and Thurman Munson in '68. All the other players that the Yankees signed during that decade were nonentities, such as legendary stiffs Jake Gibbs, Horace Clarke, Steve Whitaker, and Steve Kline.

In other words, the Yankee machine of the early '60s was running on fumes, with aging stars such as Mantle, Maris, Berra, Ford, Terry, and Howard holding down the fort, a few phenoms that later turned into journeymen (Bouton, Pepitone, Downing, and Tresh) creating the illusion of a bright future, and nobody of any note coming up through the farm system.

[Gregory Sager]

Hockey is popular?  NHL ratings are somewhere below those of poker!  The Red Wings/Penguins Cup finals (the most anticipated matchup in years) got ratings that would get programs cancelled on most cable channels!

As a Red Wings fan and soccer fan (and ex-coach), I'll stand by my assertion that the overwhelming majority of Americans don't grasp the intricacies of either game.

Hockey is popular in the sense that enough Americans have watched the sport to grasp a fair knowledge of the game's tactics. "Forechecking" and "dump-and-chase" are not unfamiliar terms to the average American sports fan. "Intricacies of the game" is a subjective term. What you and I consider to be intricacies of the sports that we follow are probably well beyond that of the casual fan anywhere. I doubt that the casual fan anywhere knows the intricacies of the sports he occasionally watches.

You're right that hockey trails badly behind football, basketball, and baseball in popularity in the U.S., and it doesn't seem to be gaining a lot of new converts, either -- but, again, that reflects the same criticisms that Americans level at soccer. As is the case with soccer, there's very little scoring in hockey, and the one-goal-at-a-time incremental scoring common to both sports hampers enjoyment of the game in a way that sports in which a team can go from being behind to being ahead in one fell swoop (or vice-versa), such as baseball (multiple runs can score on one play), basketball (made shots are worth one, two, or three points), and football (a play can result in one, two, three, or six points, depending upon the circumstances), don't have to worry about.

[sac]

Jason Thompson, Pat. 8)

Jason Thompson wasn't on the '84 Tigers. He was a Pirate at that point in his career.

Sac, I think that the '84 Tiger you should be touting is the pride of Grand Rapids himself, sinkerballer Dave "Karate Kick" Rozema.

I'd mention Rozema's brother-in-law, Kirk Gibson, as well, but since you're a Wolverines fan I suspect that you found it hard to root for a former Spartans wide receiver.

ahhh thought we were just talking favorite Tigers.........then I have to go with Sweet Lou or Chet Lemon.

In 1984 I had never even been to Grand Rapids......true story.  But I had seen Kirk Gibson hit a home run over the giant oaks along the Red Cedar River at MSU's Kob's Field.  The same game had Rick Leach in the Michigan lineup and Steve Howe in the bullpen, though it was so long ago I may have the years mixed up.  The Alma AD John Leister may have even been playing in that game sometime around 1978, might have to look that up.   Root for Gibby?, ........not pre-Tiger years.

[joehakes]

I am surprised that Greg did not mention that the Chicago Storm's principal owner is Viktor Jakovljevic who played soccer at North Park.  This is left out of his bio on the Storm website, but Viktor scored 15 goals as a freshman and was absolutely a great kid and player.

[Dennis_Prikkel]

BTW, a confession.  My hometown of Peoria was about evenly split between Cubs and Cards fans (with a smattering of Sox and others); I leaned toward the Cards (sorry, it was a Bob Gibson/Lou Brock infatuation).  But my favorite team was the Yankees (fear not - I have long-since repented my youthful indiscretions) - how can an eight-year-old resist Mickey and Yogi and Whitey (not to mention Bobby Richardson, Tony Kubek, Gil McDougal, Don Larsen, Moose Skowron, etc.)?  (And, of course, when you're an insecure kid, winning almost every year has its appeal! )

Or Cletus Boyer (brother of Ken), Elston Howard, Jim Bouton, Ralph Terry, Joe Pepitone,  Tom Tresh and Roger Maris.  (I am a little younger than you!     )

When CBS bought the Yankees, the decline began.   

I grew up one mile from Yankee Stadium in the Bronx - 183rd street to 161st street was a 20 minute walk.  The glory days.

This past May, son Tim and I got to walk through the memorial garden at Yankee Stadium - great, great memories.

DGP - who got carried in his mother's arms to see Joe D play.

July 4 doubleheader in 1961 - 83,000 fans.

Not only were the Yankees great then, but every team that came to town was gunning for them (except Kansas City, of course, they were a Yankee farm team).

[Dennis_Prikkel]

Ralph, my single favorite player was actually the THIRD-string catcher, Johnny Blanchard.  Wonder what ever happened to him?  (I'd look it up, but I'm afraid my childhood memories would be squashed!)

Blanchard once hit four consecutive home runs over three games - the first two as a pinch-hitter, the third and fourth as a starter.  He was a dead pull left-handed hitter who loved that 296 rightfield foul pole.  On his fifth time at the plate he hit a long fly ball down the rightfield line which was caught in front of the low box-seat railings.  Blanchard ran all the way past firstbase, running several strides down the line, explaining afterwards that he wanted to knock the rightfielder down.

MW

[Dennis_Prikkel]

I do think the game is more interesting when the pitcher hits.

There's that word again. Not as many people think it's more interesting when the pitcher merely bats.

Yeah, there was nothing more exciting than watching Dean Chance, Bob Buhl, or Hank Aguirre bat.  I saw Aguirre get a mock standing ovation one time for hitting a foul ball.

MW

[Dennis_Prikkel]

That's like having Johnny Wockenfuss be your favorite 1984 Tiger.

No, mine was Alan Trammel.

Nonsense - it was Rusty Kuntz!

Greg - wasn't Rusty Kuntz a North Park student at one time (he didn't play baseball at NPC)?

[Dennis_Prikkel]

The number of players that came up for a cup of coffee with the Yankees during those years (1955-64) that I was actively going to games was amazing.

The team was always willing to buy the services of some guy who had played well against them - and as Greg said the Kansas City express was ridiculous.  One year Bob Cerv led the American League in home runs and the next year he was on the Yankees as a utility outfielder.

MW

[AndOne]

AndOne,

I agree with most of what you've said, but I hope that "I think dull, low scoring games are one reason soccer ..." was meant to be a compound modifier, not a redundant one!  For those who understand the games, there can be very excellent, exciting 0-0 soccer games, as well as dull and boring 200+ point basketball games!

On the other hand, since most Americans DON'T understand soccer, you're probably right about the lack of scoring being a significant detriment.

Yes indeed, a compound modifier for sure.   
Ah, but while a 0-0 soccer game might display "exciting" strategy that didn't work, the 0-0 result is a dull and/or boring game.   
Granted a 200+ point basketball game can be boring if the score is 131-70, but I'll take a 101-100 game anyday,   

[mr_b]

That's like having Johnny Wockenfuss be your favorite 1984 Tiger.

Wockenfuss was not on the '84 team.  Before the start of the season, he got shipped to Philadelphia in the Willie Hernandez trade, the key to the Tigers' World Series title.

[mr_b]

That's like having Johnny Wockenfuss be your favorite 1984 Tiger.

No, mine was Alan Trammel.

Nonsense - it was Rusty Kuntz!

Greg - wasn't Rusty Kuntz a North Park student at one time (he didn't play baseball at NPC)?

Kuntz batted cleanup for Cal State Stanislaus.  Here is the boxscore from Stanislaus' win over Montclair State in the 1976 D3 World Series: http://www.odaconline.com/div3base/1976/boxscores/76box04.htm

I have no record of Kuntz ever playing for the Vikings.

http://www.cadillac76.com/baseball/history/archives.html

[AndOne]

...  Isn't the ACTION of basketball one reason we're attracted to the sport? 

Yeah ACTION!  I can show up for the last three minutes of an NBA game and catch all of the action while eating a five-course meal at my local sports bar!

Forgive me for not being more specific Ralph. In keeping with the medium we are working in, I was referring to our D3 brand of basketball rather than the NBA version which so often features the one man clear out as opposed to team play, and matador defense which characterizes so many NBA games where the first 45 minutes don't seem to matter.

[mr_b]

That's like having Johnny Wockenfuss be your favorite 1984 Tiger.

No, mine was Alan Trammel.

Nonsense - it was Rusty Kuntz!

A note about Rusty Kuntz: his greatest claim to fame as a Tiger may have been when he drove in Kirk Gibson with the game-winning RBI in the fifth and final World Series game in 1984 -- he hit a pop fly to Padres second baseman Allan Wiggins, who backpedalled to catch the popup but was out of position to throw out Gibson at the plate.  Most fans remember Gibson's two home runs (including the three-run homer off Goose Gossage), but Kuntz drove in the decisive tally in the game.