MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[GoKnights68]

From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.   

I'm far from an expert on MIAA basketball history, but the miaa.org web page shows that no MIAA teams were in the national tournament before 1978.  Considering Veenstra played from 74-77, that would have made it tough for him to lead Calvin to the National Chamionship game.

BTW, did the MIAA just not participate in the national tournament before 1978?

My dad was a student at Calvin during the Mark Veenstra years.  You are correct in saying that Calvin did not participate in the tournaments back then, although I'm not sure if it was an MIAA thing or if it was a choice of Calvin's (maybe having to do with Sunday games?  Remember, this was back when Chapel attendence was required at Calvin).   

My dad always speculated that Veenstra could have led Calvin very deep in the national tourneys, although that probably has a large bit of homer-ism in that.   

It was a MIAA rule.


Couldn't have Veenstra also gone and played for Michigan?

[realist]

gk68:  I recall hearing in 73 that Veenstra was being recruited by UM.  He was good enough he probably could have gone there, and seen lots of playing time. 

[Gregory Sager]

From my perspective, it seems that one of the greatest division 3 players of all time would have led his team to at least 1 National Championship game.

That doesn't follow at all. Remember Devean George? He's been in the NBA for the better part of a decade now, and his Augsburg team never came anywhere near a D3 national championship. The Auggies never got beyond the second round of the D3 tournament, even with George. The one time that they got that far, they were whomped by eventual national champion UW-Platteville by over 30 points. One player does not a national-championship-caliber basketball team make, no matter how good he is.

There's a room in the "Who's The Best...?" section of Posting Up devoted to candidates for the best D3 player of all time. In it I listed all of the players who've won multiple NABC D3 All-American awards. Take a look at it and you'll get some perspective as to how many great, great D3 players never got even a whiff of a Final Four appearance.

My dad was a student at Calvin during the Mark Veenstra years.  You are correct in saying that Calvin did not participate in the tournaments back then, although I'm not sure if it was an MIAA thing or if it was a choice of Calvin's (maybe having to do with Sunday games?  Remember, this was back when Chapel attendence was required at Calvin).   

As far as I know, D3 tourney games have never been scheduled to be played on a Sunday.

I don't know if Calvin would have won at least two national titles that era but Calvin would have been a favorite to win D3 at least once during the mid-70's.

Favorite according to whom, though? Remember, this is the mid-'70s we're talking about, the Dark Ages of D3 basketball in which there was no d3hoops.com and no Internet webcasts. Couple that with the virtual media vacuum in which D3 basketball has always operated, and there was no way at all to know anything about teams from other parts of the country in D3 back then. Aside from the dubious measuring sticks of comparative scores (which are rarely useful in terms of D3 teams from non-contiguous regions, anyway) or the previous season's tournament, there was almost no objective data that an unbiased prognosticator could've used back in the middle of the Me Decade. Any declaration as to favorites and underdogs for the national title would've been close to completely unsupportable.

Now that I think about it, bulldogalum sr. is right--Calvin would have won at least two national titles with Veenstra.

Again, this doesn't follow. I just don't see how any of you can say such things with certitude.

MIAA oldtimers are not the first people to engage in this particular exercise of counterfactuals. Many Illinois Wesleyan fans have played the what-if game for those same three inaugural seasons of D3 -- 1974-75, 1975-76, and 1976-77 -- because those three Titans teams each won the CCIW handily and had future NBA All-Star Jack Sikma on them, but were denied the chance to play in the D3 tournament because Illinois Wesleyan was an active NAIA member back then. One or two of those Illinois Wesleyan fans have been so bold as to make these same sort of grandiose claims, that their Titans would've brought home the Walnut and Bronze at least once back then if only Sikma & Co. had had the chance to participate in D3's tourney. (Titan Q and Mr. Ypsi are not the Titans fans who've made such claims on Posting Up, I hasten to point out.)

And, not to single out Calvin and Illinois Wesleyan fans, other D3 fans have made similar counterfactual claims for their teams. WIAC fans on their board have said more than once that the great UW-Eau Claire teams of that era that were coached by the legendary Ken Anderson could've gone on to win a national title or two, if UWEC and most of the rest of what was then called the WSUC had been NCAA D3 rather than NAIA during that era. Hamilton is another school in Calvin's shoes, a basketball powerhouse of the seventies and eighties that was prevented from participating in the D3 tourney because of league rules. Thus, I've read similar claims over the years from long-time followers of the Continentals and other upstate NY basketball fans.

Again, those who make such claims for their teams of yore tend to do so from a position where they know next to nothing about any of the other teams that were in D3 back then, aside from the teams within their own league. Did any of you see the LeMoyne-Owen team that won it all in '75? The Scranton team that won it all in '76? The Wittenberg team that won it all in '77? For that matter, did any of you see any of the Elite Eight or Final Four teams from the first three years of the D3 tournament? Upon what basis are you writing off all of those teams in favor of Mark Veenstra's Calvin outfits, aside from the fact that you saw and were duly impressed by those Knights teams?

Calvin did play a good Pepperdine team that year in Malibu (still the nicest campus setting I've ever seen--how do those kids study anyway?) and lost by 19 to a team that made the D1 tournament. The game was a lot closer than 19 too with Calvin only trailing by 8 or 9 points with 5 minutes left forcing the Waves to call a time out to right the ship (sorry about the bad metaphor).

I realize that you're not all that serious about this argument, Oldknight, so please don't mistake my usual wordy response as vehemence on this point. But the Pepperdine argument doesn't really fly. In 1978-79 North Park was on its way to its second straight of what would turn out to be three D3 national championships in a row. That season the Vikings traveled to D1 Jacksonville and beat the Dolphins by ten on their home floor. The Dolphins subsequently went on to win their conference and participate in D1's big dance. To the best of my knowledge, it was the first, last, and only time that a D3 team has ever beaten a D1 team that made the D1 tourney that season.

However, that North Park team had the narrowest escape of any of the threepeat teams in the D3 tourney. In the opening round of the '79 tourney North Park was up by one point against Beloit in the waning seconds. A Buccaneers shot at the buzzer sat on the front of the rim for a moment or two, and then fell out. The Vikings came that close to being eliminated on the tournament's opening night. The threepeat North Park team, which featured future Portland Trailblazer Michael Harper and three other players who were also drafted by the NBA (Michael Thomas, Modzel Greer, and Keith French) was the greatest D3 team I have ever seen ... and I've never seen another one that even comes close. Yet lowly Beloit very nearly knocked off that superstar-laden North Park team in the first round.

My point? No matter how good your team may be, and no matter how illustrious the team's credentials might be (against D1 teams or otherwise), the tournament is still something of a crapshoot to a certain degree. Sac's recaps of the great MIAA teams of the past decade captures some of this as well. You just can't predict the outcome of the tournament, and it does not matter how dominant you feel that your team is. One bad night of shooting, and one great night of shooting by the opponent, can change everything for even the most star-studded outfit. Very rare is the D3 champion that sails through the tournament without at least one scare.

To say that some great team of yesteryear would've definitely won the D3 title if that team had had the opportunity to play in the tournament just doesn't add up. It's an argument made largely in ignorance of the potential tourney competition back then, and it's an argument that doesn't take into consideration the random elements present in each D3 tournament. Plus, of course, it's a statement loaded with homer bias, as WolverineKeith admitted about his father. Yeah, I didn't see Mark Veenstra or his Calvin teams. Nor did I see Jack Sikma and his Illinois Wesleyan teams, or those great UW-Eau Claire teams, either. I'm sure without a doubt that they were all tremendous basketball squads. But when you say that one or the other would've definitely won a D3 title in '75 or '76 or '77, the burden of proof isn't on me. It's on you as the one making the claim.

The shame of the post-season ban was that the 1975 Calvin team at 22-1 didn't get to participate in the post-season.

That's something upon which everyone can agree -- even LeMoyne-Owen supporters!

[ACRULZ]

I don't follow MIAA basketball much, however I'm getting into it.  Regarding next season who looks tough on paper as of right now?  I hear a lot about the transfer the Adrian had come in last season.  Is he that good?

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

Gentlemen,

I have given alot of thought to the M. Veenstra discussion.  I appreciate the info. surrounding his playing career.  Here's how I broke it down :

Freshmen year:  Veenstra League MVP and league champs.  Bos all league, team finished in third place.  Edge:  Veenstra.

Sophomore year:  Veenstra League MVP and Knights the  leauge champs; phenomenal year for the Knights.  I now know that Calvin did not have the opportunity to compete in the tournament in 1975.  To me it compares to the regular season of the 1995 Dutchmen.  Does anyone know how good of team Baldwin-Wallace had in 1975?  (Look, believe me, I know the heartache caused by THAT game, and realize I could be the target of B-W related backlash on this board.  However,   my personal feeling is that we (Hope nation)  have to get passed it to the point we can mention the game.  Otherwise,  B-W is STILL beating us...).    Edge:  Veenstra.

Junior Year:   Veenstra is league MVP and the Knights win the MIAA, overall record is 18-4.  Bos is league MVP and leads the Dutchmen to a 26-1 record and league titles.   Disappointing first round loss.   Edge (by a nose) :  Bosma.

Senior Year:  Veenstra is league MVP and the Knights win the MIAA, Knights are 13-8.  I am a bit interested in Calvin fans' perspective on how Veenstra's team  seemingly got worse as his career went on.  An opposite trend found in Bosma's experience.  Maybe it is as simple as teammates around him (and strength of schedule;  Pepperdine?!?!?!?).  However,  if he was as dominate as you claim,  would you expect to see that much drop off?   Bosma:  Co-League MVP,  MIAA Champs and National Runner's Up.  Edge:  Bosma.

In the end,  we are talking about two of great MIAA players of all time.   However I can not ignore the following facts:  M. Veenstra won four league MVP to Bosma's two.  Embarassingly, I did not have that info (on Veenstra) when I created my original team.  Veenstra won four league titles to Bosma's two.  Most importantly,  Veenstra did not have the opportunity to play in the NCAA tournament.  In light of this info:  Veenstra  is the new starting Center for my all-time MIAA 1st team.  Honderd is now moved to the second team.   Just kidding,   M. Veenstra and Honderd start together,  and a disgruntled Duane Bosma starts at center for the 2nd team.

Pat:   You're not buying my train of thought, and I am not buying your's.  No one asserted that  D. George was one of the greatest D3 players of all time.  In my opinion, he would be in the argument for the greatest NBA career of a D3 player for all time.  I see those as two very different things.   Here is an example of what I am trying to say:   Based on their college careers, Shawn Respert and Mateen Cleaves would certainly outrank Eric Snow on the all-time great guards list at Michigan State University,.   Snow would out rank them both on the best NBA careers for MSU guards.   D. George was not even 1st Team All American his senior year. 

[Pat Coleman]

Pat:   You're not buying my train of thought, and I am not buying your's.  No one asserted that  D. George was one of the greatest D3 players of all time.  In my opinion, he would be in the argument for the greatest NBA career of a D3 player for all time.  I see those as two very different things.   Here is an example of what I am trying to say:   Based on their college careers, Shawn Respert and Mateen Cleaves would certainly outrank Eric Snow on the all-time great guards list at Michigan State University,.   Snow would out rank them both on the best NBA careers for MSU guards.   D. George was not even 1st Team All American his senior year. 

I haven't given you my train of thought on Devean George. Greg Sager wrote that post, not I.

By the way: Devean George WAS first-team All-American his senior year.

http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/toym99.htm

[HopeConvert]

My dad, a Hope alum, swears that the Veenstra era Knights would have won at least two national titles.  He's probably the best player on the first team all time.

I'm willing to go so far as to say that if I was on a committee creating an all-time D3 hoops team I would put Mark Veenstra on that first team too. I've seen a lot of D3 games and players over the years and no one presented a more imposing challenge to a defense than did Mark. Those rare occasions when an opposing coach was foolish enough or ignorant enough to try and guard him straight up he shredded that team's defense.

I don't know if Calvin would have won at least two national titles that era but Calvin would have been a favorite to win D3 at least once during the mid-70's. I think Mark's sophomore and junior years were particularly strong because those teams were especially deep and were led by a superior point guard--Mark Hoogewind. If you want to play the silly "we beat someone who beat someone else" game I go back to Veenstra's senior year, the 76-77 season. I don't remember the scores anymore but by using scores from various games that year I once calculated that Calvin would have beaten the eventual D1 champion (Al McGuire's Marquette squad) by 24 points. During that season Calvin beat Grand Valley (its best team ever and a Final Four participant in D2); GVSU beat Central Michigan University (led by eventual Cleveland Cavalier, Ben Poquette); CMU beat the University of Detroit and U of D beat Marquette that regular season.

Silly reasoning? Of course it is, but a lot of fun too. Calvin did play a good Pepperdine team that year in Malibu (still the nicest campus setting I've ever seen--how do those kids study anyway?) and lost by 19 to a team that made the D1 tournament. The game was a lot closer than 19 too with Calvin only trailing by 8 or 9 points with 5 minutes left forcing the Waves to call a time out to right the ship (sorry about the bad metaphor). Now that I think about it, bulldogalum sr. is right--Calvin would have won at least two national titles with Veenstra.

That's fantastic. You can't beat that kind of analysis for sheer enjoyment.

I was at the Buick Open today, sitting in the bleachers at 18 for the end of the tournament, wearing my Hope hat, only to have two Calvin grads sitting right behind me who expressed their dismay at seeing "Go Hope" on the back of my hat. We were all rooting with each other - a nice change.

[oldknight]

JEVBB: Kudos to you for your re-evaluation of Veenstra as a first teamer. Let's face it, it's tough to come up with all time teams when considering players we didn't see and who played in different eras. I'm impressed that you included Ritsema and Benes in the HM column. Both were very fine players as was Calvin's Tom Newhof, a 6'9" post from their era (and Calvin's first All-American) who you did not rank. In fact, you could make a good case that any one or all of them are underrated in the HM category. Calvin-Hope BB was very good and competitive in the late 1950's.

Apparently I hit a nerve with Greg Sager who seemed to miss what I thought was an obvious tongue-in-cheek comment by referencing bulldogalum sr. (who actually is hopealum). I guess I need to make more liberal use of the emoticons Pat has provided us. But having been born and raised CRC being liberal about anything is a real challenge for me. So how's this Greg? 

By the way, I did see the Harper-Thomas, North Park team play in 79' once and it was the greatest D3 team I ever saw.

[Joel-Eric Van Bosma Brady]

Sorry for the mix up Pat, 

http://www.hope.edu/pr/pressreleases/content/view/full/3969.  (Different source/ National Assoc. of Basketbal Coaches; D George = 2nd Team All American.)

[jfebus]

Here's a follow-up to Greg Sager's post on the Mark Veenstra era. I think Greg makes several valid points that there is no way to measure how a team would have faired in a single-elimination NCAA III Tournament when they never played in a single NCAA III Tournament game during the four years. I think the only thing that we could say for certain is that if the MIAA did not have a ban on post-season play during the Mark Veenstra era, Calvin would have been in the post-season all four years as conference champions.

There is one common link that might be made however that I think at least gives some validity to the quality of play in the MIAA at that time. Calvin won four consecutive MIAA titles during the Veenstra era but over his final three years, Calvin struggled with a young and talented Albion team that was under the direction of  youthful head coach Mike Turner. During Veenstra's final two years (1976 and 1977), Calvin split its regular season series with Albion and needed a Hope upset win over Albion at the Holland Civic Center in the 1977 regular season finale to win the outright league title. Calvin's lone win over Albion in 1976 was a 75-74 decision and its 1977 win over Albion came by a 94-90 score. Albion was paced back then by future Eastern Michigan head coach Milton Barnes and eventual two-time MIAA MVP John Nibert. The year after the Veenstra era had ended (1977-78), the MIAA ban on post-season play was over and Albion in the first year of post-season eligibility, went all the way to the NCAA III Final Four, lost to the vaunted North Park team 75-69 in the semifinals and won the consolation game over Stony Brook of New York 87-78 for a third place national finish. Perhaps that Albion group was a cinderella team that overachieved. I don't know. But my guess is that the 1978 Albion team was pretty good. I think Greg might have been at the 1978 Final Four as a student so perhaps he could shed some light on Albion's team back then or perhaps Old Knight could do so. I can't say much since I didn't see them play as I was only eight years old.

So to get back to the Albion point, you might be able to infer that since Albion was able to play Calvin tough during the Veenstra era and then reach the Final Four the first year the MIAA sent teams to the NCAA III Tournament, you might also think that a Veenstra team could have made a simaler run. Even so, it's hard to know for sure. The 1977 team almost certainly would have had to have gone through Wittenberg (the national champion that year) and most likely would have played Wittenberg in Witt's old cramped brick gym which still stands today and could have served as a filming location for "Hoosiers"....I know some of the Hope and Calvin fans who have traveled down to Wittenberg have seen that old gym which is extends off the south side of Wittenberg's current HPERDS facility.

A few things regarding Mark Veenstra: Mark did turn a full-ride scholarship to play for Johnny Orr (among others) at the University of Michigan coming out of Hudsonville Unity Christian back in 1973. Even in the days before the internet and sports talk radio, that decision made quite a few waves from the newspaper clippings I've read in our archives. I also had a chance to watch several old film clips of Mark's career in helping put together a highlight video for his induction into the Grand Rapids Sports Hall of Fame in the late 1990s. The thing that stands out about Mark is not only was he a towering figure at 6-9, 6-10, but he also had an incredible soft shooting touch from 15-feet in. He was a natural southpaw and held the ball high above his head and could float in the 15-footer from either baseline, the elbow or in the lane. Almost an unstoppable jump shot at the Division III level. Since he also held his hands high above his head on his release, he was able to grab his own rebound quickly. If he missed, he usually got his own rebound for an easy put-back. Heading into last year, Mark still was tied for the Division III single-game record for rebounds with 36 in a game at Metro State (in Denver) during the 1975-76 season. I did not see the game in person obviously but my guess is that at least half of the 36 rebounds were of the offensive variety.

A couple of other notes about the four Veenstra teams....During his first two years, I believe he had a bit more help in the backcourt with sharpshooting guard Marc Hoogewind who probably would have added another 200 points to his collegiate career had the 3-point arc been around. I've heard several stories about how Marc and Art Tuls shot the lights out at the Calvin Fieldhouse in a 72-60 win over a Dan Roundfield-led Central Michigan team during the 1972-73 season. By the 1975-76 season, Hoogewind had graduated I believe and although Calvin's lineup featured no player smaller than 6-4 including a 6-6 point guard, I'm not sure that the perimeter shooting, speed or quickness was quite the same. I gather this only from talking to players and coaches from that era however. Old Knight could probably fill us in more.

A final thought on Mark Veenstra: I've asked both Doug Wentworth from WFUR and Hope SID Tom Renner who they consider the top players they've seen in the MIAA (in men's basketball). Doug has seen MIAA games since 1962 and Tom since 1965. When I asked them a few years ago, neither hesitated in naming Mark Veenstra as the most dominant player the MIAA has ever seen.

It all makes for interesting conversation to say the least.

[Pat Coleman]

Sorry for the mix up Pat, 

http://www.hope.edu/pr/pressreleases/content/view/full/3969.  (Different source/ National Assoc. of Basketbal Coaches; D George = 2nd Team All American.)

Yeah. The coaches played a little politics on that one and were hamstrung by their own stupid system that allows just one player from each region on the first team.

Jeff -- I don't know if there were automatic bids then. The 13-8 team in 1977 might have had trouble getting in.

[oldknight]

Jfebus makes many good comments, with good detail and is very much on the mark. A couple of additional comments and corrections.

The John Nibert-Milton Barnes led Albion squads of the late 1970's was more than just "pretty good." They were great teams as evidenced by the fact that the Brits were the first MIAA member institution to accept an NCAA bid and then promptly took that bid and advanced to the Final Four (there's a bit of MIAA trivia that would surprise many people). I suspect most of you probably think the Brandon Crawford led club of a couple of years ago was the best team in Albion history but I don't. Nibert and Barnes were superior players and they also had a very good supporting cast with great size and excellent quickness. Not only was the Final Four team the best Brit squad ever, it was one of the finest MIAA teams I ever witnessed.

Mark Veenstra was not just big at 6'9", he was a really big 6'9". His shoulders were enormous, he had a short neck (making for higher shoulders than most players his height) and long arms. Most people seeing him for the first time--even opposing coaches--did not believe he was his listed height and insisted he was at least 6'11". His senior year in high school he had more than 100 D1 institutions courting him and he could have attended any major BB school in the Midwest for free if he had so chosen.

A couple of corrections. Hoogewind was early into his sophomore year and I don't think he played much of a role--if any at all--in Calvin's win over the Dan Roundfield led CMU team the 72-73 season--still one of the most exciting games I ever saw at the Fieldhouse. That game was strictly an Art Tuls show all the way. (Also, that game was was played the year before Veenstra's freshmen year). It was after that game that CMU realized it didn't do their D1 program any good to play Calvin at Knollcrest and they haven't been back since. 

The game in which Veenstra had 38 points and 36 boards (he had a double/double midway through the first half), was played against the University of Southern Colorado, not Metro State, and the game was played in Pueblo, not Denver. Later that year, when submissions were made to the US Olympic Committee deciding who to extend tryout invitations to, the Southern Colorado coach wrote a very nice letter to the committee in support of Mark. That coach wrote that his school's schedule typically included several D1 schools (from the WAC) and that Veenstra was the finest player he had seen in several years. Mark did not get a tryout invitation.

[sac]

Great stuff everyone, thanks I've enjoyed the good read.


Just wanted to apologize for not completeing my top 10 in a timely manner, I thought it wise to enjoy some of our fine Michigan weather this weekend. 8)


PS      I agree Pepperdine is one of the nicest locations for a campus you'll ever see, and I to have no idea how those kids get anything done there.

[jfebus]

Old Knight, thanks for the corrections and additional insights. I knew I could count on you for some more info!

Pat, regarding the AQs for leagues back in the mid to late 70s, you might be right. I do know that in 1981, Calvin, Hope and Albion tied for the league title with 9-3 regular season marks, forcing a three-way playoff with Calvin and Albion playing a 1st round game on the Monday after the regular season with Calvin winning that game and then playing Hope on Tuesday in the "playoff championship" game...Hope had received the bye. Calvin won that game too and in doing so, received the MIAA's automatic bid to the NCAA III Tournament. By the way, both of those MIAA "playoff games" were played at Middleville High School, considered a neutral site for the three teams. This comes directly from old newspaper clippings and other archives that we have. However, that was 1981 and not 1974-77....so how things would have unfolded for 1977, I do not know.

Albion's 1978 team that advanced to the Final Four shared the final MIAA title with Alma at 9-3 believe it or not and had an overall regular season record of 17-5. Whether or not that Albion team received an "at-large" bid to the NCAAs or received some type of automatic bid to the NCAAs through a tie-breaker edge with Alma...I do not know. I'll have to look that one up in the MIAA archives when I get a chance sometime.

[Gregory Sager]

Pat:   You're not buying my train of thought, and I am not buying your's.  No one asserted that  D. George was one of the greatest D3 players of all time.  In my opinion, he would be in the argument for the greatest NBA career of a D3 player for all time.  I see those as two very different things.   Here is an example of what I am trying to say:   Based on their college careers, Shawn Respert and Mateen Cleaves would certainly outrank Eric Snow on the all-time great guards list at Michigan State University,.   Snow would out rank them both on the best NBA careers for MSU guards.   D. George was not even 1st Team All American his senior year. 

I haven't given you my train of thought on Devean George. Greg Sager wrote that post, not I.

By the way: Devean George WAS first-team All-American his senior year.

http://www.d3hoops.com/tow/toym99.htm

And he was a second-teamer on the d3hoops.com All-American team as a junior as well.

As I said, any talk about the greatest player in D3 history belongs in the "Who's the best ...?" room devoted to that purpose. But as far as JEVBB's Veenstra-specific assertion goes -- that anyone who deserves consideration for that illustrious title would've led his team to the national championship game -- again, it's not borne out by the evidence.

In the aforementioned "Who's the best ...?" room I listed all 71 players who have won two NABC All-American awards since the NABC started naming those teams at the conclusion of the 1976-77 season, and all 12 players who have won three NABC All-American awards. It's important to note that the NABC slots All-Americans by region in a (misguided, I think) effort to be fair to everyone around the country, same as that organization does with its poll. While it may be a misguided selection philosophy, it makes for one interesting point: Mark Veenstra was a third-team NABC All-American as a senior in 1976-77, the first year that the NABC handed out D3 All-American awards, but was deemed by that organization to be only the second-best player in his region. The fine folks at the NABC felt that Rick White of Wittenberg, who was the OAC Player of the Year for the national champion Tigers, had a better year than Veenstra's; White was named to the NABC's second team.

Anyway, of the 71 two-time NABC All-Americans, four played for NESCAC teams that (like the pre-'78 MIAA) did not participate in the D3 tourney. Of the remaining 67, a grand total of 32 of them participated in the Final Four. Only 24 of them met JEVBB's criterion of taking their team to the national championship game (fifteen of them got to cut down the nets after the title game).

Of the twelve players that were named to three NABC All-American teams:

Irv Johnson, Scranton ('77, '78, '79),
Cedric Oliver, Hamilton ('77, '78, '79)
Michael Harper, North Park ('78, '79, '80)
Ron Stewart, Otterbein ('81, '82, '83)
Bill Bessoir, Scranton ('83, '84, '85)
Dick Hempy, Otterbein ('85, '86, '87)
Matt Hancock, Colby ('88, '89, '90)
Brad Baldridge, Wittenberg ('89, '90, '91)
Mike Nelson, Hamilton ('89, '90, '91)
Mike Nogelo, Williams ('96, '97, '98)
Andy Panko, Lebanon Valley ('97, '98, '99)
Derek Reich, Chicago ('01, '02, '03)

... three of them (Oliver, Hancock, and Nelson) played for NESCAC teams that weren't allowed to participate in the big dance. Two (Stewart and Nogelo) played on teams that made it to the Final Four but never reached the championship game. Three (Johnson, Harper, and Bessoir) played for national championship teams. And four -- Hempy, Baldridge, Panko, and Reich, fully one-third of this list of rare-bird superstars -- never made it to the last weekend of the season.

Now let's look at the d3hoops.com All-American teams, which have been around for ten seasons. Twenty-two players have been named twice to the first, second, or third teams of the d3hoops.com All-American list (which is the numerical equivalent of the annual NABC All-American list). Four players have been named three times to first-, second-, or third-team d3hoops.com All-American honors.

Of the 22 double-timers, three made it as far as the Final Four, two more made it as far as the national championship game, and five won national championship rings. That's less than half the list. Of the four triple-timers -- Josh Estelle of Wabash ('98, '99, '00), Jason Wiertel of Carthage ('00, '01, '02), Derek Reich of Chicago ('01, '02, '03), and Keelan Amelianovich of Illinois Wesleyan ('04, '05, '06) -- two of them (Wiertel and Amelianovich) made it as far as the Final Four. Neither achieved JEVBB's criterion of appearing in a national championship game. Reich made it as far as the Elite Eight once -- and his surrounding cast for the Maroons was very good, as Jon Poyer and Brad Henderson combined with Reich to give Coach Mike McGrath a front line that consisted of three highly-skilled 6'8 players -- and Estelle's Wabash teams bowed out in the second round in his freshman and sophomore seasons and didn't even make the tourney in his junior and senior seasons.

Mike Nogelo of Williams was named to the inaugural d3hoops.com All-American list his senior season as a first-teamer. Andy Panko of Lebanon Valley was a first-teamer on the first two d3hoops.com All-American lists. I think that Pat will attest that if d3hoops.com had started naming All-Americans two years before it actually began to do so, both Nogelo and Panko would've duplicated their NABC plaudits by winning top-three-team All-American awards from this website for their sophomore, junior, and senior seasons.

Nogelo played on national third-place teams for the Ephs as both a junior and a senior, but, as I indicated above, he never met JEVBB"s championship-game criterion. Panko, who went on to play briefly for the Atlanta Hawks, never even played in a D3 tourney game until he was a senior -- and his Flying Dutchmen were promptly ousted by Catholic in the first round that year.

It just doesn't follow that everyone on the short list of all-time-greatest D3 players whose team participated in the D3 tourney made it as far as the national title game.