MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[GoKnights68]

I echo those who have noted Calvin's variable student support.  It surprised me during my years there, although I admit I didn't attend all the home games either.

Interestingly, I did attend the Calvin/GVSU hockey game last night and it was packed (Calvin lost 5-4...grrr).  I don't know how many the Jolly Roger arena holds (1,000?  1,200?) but it was jam-packed with students, at least as many as were there during the raucous days of 2003/2004, when Calvin won the D3 Club Hockey national title and when the Jolly had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy towards students bringing their own beverages inside.  (The Calvin administration got wise to all the fun that was being had after that, and imposed a crackdown of sorts, although it's hard for them because the games are played off campus.)

To get back to the point....it seems interesting to me that hockey, a club sport, garners as much support on campus (in terms of student attendence)  as men's bball.  From my eyeball perspective it does seem the hockey crowd is made up of some of the more socially influential kids, so maybe that has something do with it. 

I was at that game last night as well.  Basically the whole arena was filled with Calvin students, and the atmosphere was amazing.  It reminded me off the good ol days from the '04 season, although the team isn't nearly as good.

[SKOT]

Why don't IWU and Hope show the same peaks? At the risk of belaboring the obvious, Hope and IWU haven't had national championship runs recently. And they don't have excess seating capacity to handle a big increase anyway.

Two thoughts on this:

1. Holland and Bloomington/Normal each have a population of about 100,000 as opposed to Grand Rapids' 1.3 million.  The smaller population leaves less local entertainment options.

2. To me, smaller arenas that are filled every game seem more exciting/appealing that putting the same number of people into an arena with another 1500 empty seats.  The atmosphere could turn more of the casual fans into more enthusiastic fans!

[oldknight]

I echo those who have noted Calvin's variable student support.  It surprised me during my years there, although I admit I didn't attend all the home games either.

Interestingly, I did attend the Calvin/GVSU hockey game last night and it was packed (Calvin lost 5-4...grrr).  I don't know how many the Jolly Roger arena holds (1,000?  1,200?) but it was jam-packed with students, at least as many as were there during the raucous days of 2003/2004, when Calvin won the D3 Club Hockey national title and when the Jolly had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy towards students bringing their own beverages inside.  (The Calvin administration got wise to all the fun that was being had after that, and imposed a crackdown of sorts, although it's hard for them because the games are played off campus.)

To get back to the point....it seems interesting to me that hockey, a club sport, garners as much support on campus (in terms of student attendence)  as men's bball.  From my eyeball perspective it does seem the hockey crowd is made up of some of the more socially influential kids, so maybe that has something do with it. 

WK: Your first observation goes a long way in explaining the raucus popularity of hockey with Calvin students--Jolly Roger is close enough for students attend games with ease but far enough off-campus so as to limit the administration's ability to control student behavior than it can with on-campus basketball. Another posssibility is the fact that virtually all hockey games are on Friday and Saturday nights and more students are looking for something to do (off-campus) with other students. By contrast, most bball games are on Wednesday nights or Saturday afternoons. But I'm wondering if there might be another reason why this activity generates such student interest--the Canadian component. Calvin has a fair number of students from north of the border and these kids are more likely to watch hockey than hoops--and they're pretty passionate about their hockey too.

[wolverinekeith]

I echo those who have noted Calvin's variable student support.  It surprised me during my years there, although I admit I didn't attend all the home games either.

Interestingly, I did attend the Calvin/GVSU hockey game last night and it was packed (Calvin lost 5-4...grrr).  I don't know how many the Jolly Roger arena holds (1,000?  1,200?) but it was jam-packed with students, at least as many as were there during the raucous days of 2003/2004, when Calvin won the D3 Club Hockey national title and when the Jolly had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy towards students bringing their own beverages inside.  (The Calvin administration got wise to all the fun that was being had after that, and imposed a crackdown of sorts, although it's hard for them because the games are played off campus.)

To get back to the point....it seems interesting to me that hockey, a club sport, garners as much support on campus (in terms of student attendence)  as men's bball.  From my eyeball perspective it does seem the hockey crowd is made up of some of the more socially influential kids, so maybe that has something do with it. 

WK: Your first observation goes a long way in explaining the raucus popularity of hockey with Calvin students--Jolly Roger is close enough for students attend games with ease but far enough off-campus so as to limit the administration's ability to control student behavior than it can with on-campus basketball. Another posssibility is the fact that virtually all hockey games are on Friday and Saturday nights and more students are looking for something to do (off-campus) with other students. By contrast, most bball games are on Wednesday nights or Saturday afternoons. But I'm wondering if there might be another reason why this activity generates such student interest--the Canadian component. Calvin has a fair number of students from north of the border and these kids are more likely to watch hockey than hoops--and they're pretty passionate about their hockey too.

The Canadian component probably has something to do with it.  Also, I wouldn't underestimate the lesser control the admins have over student behavior as a factor.  The hockey games also serve as an excellent rendezvous point for what's going on after the game - what off-campus houses are opening their doors that night.  When kids are evaluating options between the hockey games or the on-campus Calvin admin endorsed activities, it's a pretty easy choice (to the chagrin of Shirley Hoogstra and Bob Crow!).

It would be interesting to see what kind of response there would be if the bball games were at 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays. 

[NW Hope Fan]

It would be interesting to see what kind of response there would be if the bball games were at 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays. 

It would also be interesting to see if having beer on tap    along with the hot dogs would bring in more people... 

[GoKnights68]

I echo those who have noted Calvin's variable student support.  It surprised me during my years there, although I admit I didn't attend all the home games either.

Interestingly, I did attend the Calvin/GVSU hockey game last night and it was packed (Calvin lost 5-4...grrr).  I don't know how many the Jolly Roger arena holds (1,000?  1,200?) but it was jam-packed with students, at least as many as were there during the raucous days of 2003/2004, when Calvin won the D3 Club Hockey national title and when the Jolly had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy towards students bringing their own beverages inside.  (The Calvin administration got wise to all the fun that was being had after that, and imposed a crackdown of sorts, although it's hard for them because the games are played off campus.)

To get back to the point....it seems interesting to me that hockey, a club sport, garners as much support on campus (in terms of student attendence)  as men's bball.  From my eyeball perspective it does seem the hockey crowd is made up of some of the more socially influential kids, so maybe that has something do with it. 

WK: Your first observation goes a long way in explaining the raucus popularity of hockey with Calvin students--Jolly Roger is close enough for students attend games with ease but far enough off-campus so as to limit the administration's ability to control student behavior than it can with on-campus basketball. Another posssibility is the fact that virtually all hockey games are on Friday and Saturday nights and more students are looking for something to do (off-campus) with other students. By contrast, most bball games are on Wednesday nights or Saturday afternoons. But I'm wondering if there might be another reason why this activity generates such student interest--the Canadian component. Calvin has a fair number of students from north of the border and these kids are more likely to watch hockey than hoops--and they're pretty passionate about their hockey too.

The Canadian component probably has something to do with it.  Also, I wouldn't underestimate the lesser control the admins have over student behavior as a factor.  The hockey games also serve as an excellent rendezvous point for what's going on after the game - what off-campus houses are opening their doors that night.  When kids are evaluating options between the hockey games or the on-campus Calvin admin endorsed activities, it's a pretty easy choice (to the chagrin of Shirley Hoogstra and Bob Crow!).

It would be interesting to see what kind of response there would be if the bball games were at 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays. 

Good observations oldnight and wolverinekeith.  You pretty much nailed it.

[Gregory Sager]

It would be interesting to see what kind of response there would be if the bball games were at 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays. 

Speaking as a follower of a conference whose members have always played men's games on Saturday nights, I would scream long and loud if anyone ever tried to move them to Saturday afternoons. Afternoon basketball just doesn't have the same vibe as evening basketball; it feels less like an "event". Of course, the matchup is what's paramount, not the time of day, but I think that evening basketball has it all over afternoon basketball.

[hopefan]

Midwest D3 schools should thank their lucky stars that Hockey at most of the region's schools has remained at the club level or D3 level.  Out east, solid basketball programs like RPI and Union have had to scramble just for meager attendance levels as most of the student base and the town's population chooses to support their Division 1 Hockey teams.  RPI basketball attendance likely averages 300-400... Hockey (a .500 program the last 2 decades) averages 3 to 4 thousand.  The papers cover D1 Hockey like other major cities cover D1 Football and Basketball.

Even the SUNY baskeball programs have suffered from Glory days of the 70's and 80's as D3 Hockey has become big throughout the conference.  I remember scouting games in the 70's at Plattsburgh, Brockport, Oneonta, Cortland with attendance routinely over a thousand -  doubtful that they approach that level now, and I'll bet that one of the major reasons is hockey.

[wolverinekeith]

Midwest D3 schools should thank their lucky stars that Hockey at most of the region's schools has remained at the club level or D3 level.  Out east, solid basketball programs like RPI and Union have had to scramble just for meager attendance levels as most of the student base and the town's population chooses to support their Division 1 Hockey teams.  RPI basketball attendance likely averages 300-400... Hockey (a .500 program the last 2 decades) averages 3 to 4 thousand.  The papers cover D1 Hockey like other major cities cover D1 Football and Basketball.

Even the SUNY baskeball programs have suffered from Glory days of the 70's and 80's as D3 Hockey has become big throughout the conference.  I remember scouting games in the 70's at Plattsburgh, Brockport, Oneonta, Cortland with attendance routinely over a thousand -  doubtful that they approach that level now, and I'll bet that one of the major reasons is hockey.

How does the hockey support at Hope compare with bball? Hope tends to have a good team, although in recent history, Calvin certainly has their number (sorry, couldn't resist one little shot  ).  I know that Hope usually brings respectable showing of fans to the Calvin/Hope hockey game at VAA. 

I know playing that game at VAA is cool for the kids and has sufficient seating, but I wish Calvin still hosted at the Jolly.  That rickety old arena is a huge home ice advantage for Calvin, and it holds in the noise very, very well. 

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Back in my day Hope had a strong following for hockey on Saturday nights. Exceptional when playing Calvin! I can't think of the name of Hope's rink but since it is off campus I know many people would show up after having enjoyed a special beverage or two, the game would then serve as a nice break and around 11 (beginning of the 3rd period) many would leave for the second party of the night.

Piggybacking off of Sager's observation about night games on the weekends I think it would be great if the MIAA played their Saturday games at 7. It would certainly help encourage student attendance and energy for games against Olivet, Alma, and others where students often choose to skip and get work done assuming a blow out. Night games would serve as a great start to a fun evening.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

How does the hockey support at Hope compare with bball? Hope tends to have a good team, although in recent history, Calvin certainly has their number (sorry, couldn't resist one little shot  ). 

WK - that shot was so wide the goalie never even flinched.  Last year the teams met 4 times, with Hope winning all 4 contests.  Scores were 4-1, 6-1, 3-2, and 6-1.  Pretty dominate by the Dutchmen if you ask me   

Back in my day Hope had a strong following for hockey on Saturday nights. Exceptional when playing Calvin! I can't think of the name of Hope's rink but since it is off campus I know many people would show up after having enjoyed a special beverage or two, the game would then serve as a nice break and around 11 (beginning of the 3rd period) many would leave for the second party of the night.

Hope plays at The Edge - a nice little rink on the north side of town

[Gregory Sager]

Midwest D3 schools should thank their lucky stars that Hockey at most of the region's schools has remained at the club level or D3 level.  Out east, solid basketball programs like RPI and Union have had to scramble just for meager attendance levels as most of the student base and the town's population chooses to support their Division 1 Hockey teams.  RPI basketball attendance likely averages 300-400... Hockey (a .500 program the last 2 decades) averages 3 to 4 thousand.  The papers cover D1 Hockey like other major cities cover D1 Football and Basketball.

Even the SUNY baskeball programs have suffered from Glory days of the 70's and 80's as D3 Hockey has become big throughout the conference.  I remember scouting games in the 70's at Plattsburgh, Brockport, Oneonta, Cortland with attendance routinely over a thousand -  doubtful that they approach that level now, and I'll bet that one of the major reasons is hockey.

The sports culture in upstate NY and in the northeast in general is slightly different than it is in the midwest, and I think that both the relative popularity and the relative success of various D3 sports reflects that. Hockey has a much more pronounced presence in upstate NY and New England than it does in the midwest (with the noteworthy exception of Minnesota), and basketball suffers accordingly. And hockey's grass-bound sister sport, lacrosse, is absolutely huge in upstate NY (and always has been -- remember, the great Jim Brown was an All-American at Syracuse University in lacrosse as well as in football), whereas only now is it becoming something other than a novelty to see a midwestern kid with a lacrosse stick in his or her hands.

It's true on a youth league and high school level as well, and that in part explains the disparity in collegiate strengths and interests. Even as Hopefan was sitting amongst crowds of a thousand or more at SUNYAC basketball games in the '70s, the tide was turning away from basketball and towards hockey in upstate NY. The Syracuse-area youth league in which I played hockey during that era drew a lot more kids than the youth league in which I eventually played basketball (after I gave up hockey due to the havoc that ice skates wrought on my flat feet), and that youth hockey league almost drew as many kids from my neighborhood as did Little League baseball. And by the time that I was in high school in the late '70s, my high school's hockey team was outdrawing the basketball team 2-to-1 in attendance -- even though the basketball team was just as successful as the hockey team. Meanwhile, every spring the lacrosse team drew more fans than did the baseball team.

I rather enjoy the fact that different parts of the country accentuate different sports. I'm all for a bit of heterogeneity in American life.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

When will the first day of practices be for MIAA teams?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Next Monday, October 15th is the first "legal" day for practice/try-outs.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Next Monday, October 15th is the first "legal" day for practice/try-outs.

That is wonderful news! (That's what I thought but I wasn't sure). Its about time we had some real basketball to talk about.