MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Basketball generally is considered to be more of a finesse sport than a full contact sport.   

Tell that to anyone given the responsibility of guarding Shaq the last decade.

[realist]

Thankfully no one is saying the defender doesn't atleast deserve to be called for the original  foul on the offensive player.  Our disagreement is over whether or not the ref. should have the right to make the determination a defender was "too aggressive" and potentially could hurt another player.  It seems reasonable to me to give the ref this power.  Perhaps the ref. in Friday nights game was trying to convey that message to the Grace Bible defenders (and their coach) when they got hit with the intentional call.  Getting the second call would seem to indicate someone is a slow learner!!
The fact the rule exists seems to indicate coaches, officals, and others (in the NCAA) think it is a reasonable rule.
DCHN:  Any similarity between a basketball game and what goes on in most NBA games is purely accidental .  When d3 get too much like the NBA I for one will stop attending, and supporting.
FDF:  I agree the reality is many times players (both offensive, and defensive) tend to go into or towards the other player.  The ref is there to make this call when either player is too aggressive.  I just hope we don't hear of any Hope player getting hurt by an opposing "overly aggressive" defender and the refs. failing to make this call.

[SKOT]

Sac, You beat me to it. I was looking up the NCAA definition of an "intentional foul" while you posted. The NCAA has 6 defintions (a-f) for an intentional foul. It begins on p. 146 of the pdf file that I am linking to http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2008/2008_m_w_basketball_rules.pdf

Definition "f" is probably where the NCAA is coming from, it states, "It is an intentional personal foul when, while playing the ball, a player causes excessive contact with an opponent."

I have only reffed soccer games before, but, as a soccer referee you are taught to enforce the rules, not interpret the rules.  The rules that cause the biggest problems are the rules with ambiguous or vague wording.  DCHopeNut pulled up the rules for an intentional foul.  The key word in there is excessive.  The refs are being asked to make a judgment call as to what is excessive.  If a particular referee decides that the afore mentioned actions are excessive, it is absolutely within their duty to call an intentional foul. 

Since I have not seen any of the intentional fouls that have been called this season, it would be silly to try and say any are wrong.  But, the refs sound like they were perfectly within the rules to call them they way they were called. 

[hornet fan]

In general, everything that was said about the Hornets' weekend in Wheaton was correct.  I do have a few other thoughts to add.  As a biased observer, I do have to disagree with Mr. Sager a little bit.  I felt like the Hornets outplayed Witt for 32 minutes of that game.  The middle 8 minutes of the first half was bad with missed layups, turnovers, and some poor defense.  Unfortunately for K, it is a 40 minute game and the (approx.) 21-2 run during the above span was too tough to overcome.  Further, Kellogg and McCain got 2 or 3 bad calls in the 2nd half, which only made the foul situation worse.
Offensively, the Hornets have some talent, but have not been able to work together as a cohesive unit.  They have a tendency to create good movement within their motion, but then stop the ball with excessive dribbling.  If they can improve upon their teamwork (screening for each other, setting up their man, passing the ball to the open man WHEN he is open), they will become better on offense. 
Defensively, they have a tendency to play in spurts.  Sometimes, they are tenacious defenders.  They are helping in gaps, taking charges, in passing lanes, and rebounding very tough (for their size).  Other times, they seemed lost and lack intensity.  Some of that may be due to their depth.  The top 6 or 7 are playing a lot of minutes.  The younger guys will get better with experience and hopefully with more depth, we will see a defensive effort that is sustainable. 
All in all, I felt so much better after Saturday's game.  You could even see some of the improvements made from Friday nights game.  If they continue to work together, they will improve and maybe win some games later in the year that they are not supposed to win.

[PicknRoll]

hornet fan, I definitely agree with that. For some reason I forgot about one point of emphasis that you brought up. I don't know how many times guys would come off screens and the ball wasn't there on time or the pass was horrible. After so much I feel some of our shooters felt like they were going to have to settle for those types of passes to get their shots. What a difference a good pass can make.

Yeah there were a few bad calls, but like Academy said some of the fouls Kellogg and McCain could have avoided. But, its early in the season and i'm sure they will learn fast we need them out there.

Anybody here going to the K - GVSU game tomorow night? I think Stinger said he is going to make it if i'm not mistaken. Any hope/calvin fans going to be in attendance?

[Dark Knight]

Are you ready for the first Calvin-Hope game this Saturday--very possibly of five this season?

Calvin should beat Cornerstone. Aquinas is 4-0, but they haven't played any top-notch teams yet. They did almost as well as Adrian against a common opponent, Cardinal Stritch. Based on the teams they've defeated, I'd say both Adrian and Aquinas are good solid teams -- maybe the equivalent of the top 50-100 of DIII -- but Hope ought to beat Aquinas if it's worthy of a top-25 ranking.

[Dark Knight]

Here are some team power estimates for the first two games of the season. There is a lot of variability in these numbers because they are based on two games only and use last year's Massey ratings. Still, they may give a rough sense of how teams did last weekend:

1. Albion, 27
2. Calvin, 16
3. Adrian, 1
4. Tri-State, -7
5. Olivet, -13
6. Kalamazoo, -14
7. Alma, -30

Based on these numbers for the first two games of the season, one would estimate that Albion would defeat Alma by 57 points.

[almcguirejr]

Are you ready for the first Calvin-Hope game this Saturday--very possibly of five this season?

So which comes first this season, GVW's 600th win or 200th loss?

[hoopdreams]

aquinas poses a major program for hope with a very talented fella in the post.  What aquinas does not have is depth, neither behind Lazic or beyond essentially a 3 guard rotation.  foul trouble will be an issue for the saints and wiersbecki (sp) has not done any scoring....yet.  struggling with his shot or playing out of position I'm not sure.  I believe Hope prevails though.

Cornerstone will have quite the learning experience against Calvin and there will be the beloved matchup saturday evening.  Based on what I have seen and read thus far, it very well could be simillar to last years championship, a blowout in reverse.

[sac]

Hall of Fame Classic Champions
1996 - Grand Valley
1997 - Hope
1998 - Grand Valley
1999 - Calvin
2000 - Calvin
2001 - Cornerstone
2002 - Hope
2003 - Grand Valley
2004 - Cornerstone
2005 - Hope
2006 - Hope

2007 pairings at Cornerstone University
Hope vs Aquinas
Calvin vs Cornerstone

Hope and Aquinas have met 5 times in this tournament, Hope winning 3 AQ 2.  They've met 3 times in round 1 with AQ winning 2.  Two of Hope's other wins have come in the consolation game.

Hope has met Cornerstone 9 times winning 5, including once in the Championship game.

Hope and Calvin have met once with Hope winning last year in the Championship game.

Oddly enough Hope has never been the runner-up in its 10 previous tournament appearances.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Calvin makes its 9th Hall of Fame appearance

Calvin has met Cornerstone  6 times winning 3.  The Golden Eagles and Knights have played in the Championship against each other 3 times.  But

AQ and Calvin have met 6 times with Calvin winning 5.

Calvin has made a leading 7 Championship games, winning 2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aquinas is makeing its 10th appearance

AQ and Cornerstone have met 3 times, all in the consolation game with Cornerstone winning 2.

AQ has appeared in one championship game, but none since 1999 in the tournaments 4th year.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cornerstone is makeing its 11th appearance, most of the 5 present and past participants.

Cornerstone has played in 4 championship contests, winning 2

[sac]

and there will be the beloved matchup saturday evening. 

How many times have we said that before in this tournament? Six, it happened once.  But the chances of it legitimately happening were 4 as Hope has been knocked out in round 1 twice by Grand Valley State with Calvin in the building.


It will also be nice to look at the Aquinas bench and not see Jeff Jayson.  Jon Lierman had a nice game last winter in the last second prayer win for Hope at Aquinas.  16 pts to go with Lazic's 19. 

This will be tough opening night game for Hope.  AQ's a bit overdue to beat Hope.

[almcguirejr]

Wash U's Sean Wallis has an interesting blog on D3hoops.  He discusses their tournament at Calvin this past weekend.

http://www.d3hoops.com/dailydose/2007/11/20/insider-introducing-sean-wallis

[realist]

Thanks Pat for putting the above mentioned blog on this site.  It is interesting to get a players perspective into top level competition.  I especially liked the lines: "Calvin is a great team that definitely has the makings of a group that could make a run in March. I think that it also shouldn't go unmentioned that while being talented on the court they also seemed like good guys."  A class statement for a guy that has to feel bad about the way the weekend ended for his team.

[northb]

I was listening to the GVSU broadcast of the Laker-Hornet game, and the announcer was talking about the MIAA ("a competetive league from top to bottom").  He referenced that when he was in high school, in 1963, Calvin won a National Chanpionship,  Does anyone know what he was referencing, or was he as wrong about this as he was about the prowess of the Alma Scots?

[sac]

There's a link to "gametracker" on the GVSU website under next event heading,

http://gvsulakers.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/sched/grva-m-baskbl-sched.html


48-25 GVSU at the half, Hornets shooting 25%



-----There's been a Mark Barnes sighting on the Northwood University roster, the former Alma Scot is listed as a JR.  I can't recall if he was on last years Northwood team, their stat archives are missing 2007