MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Why are you so bitter? What did the Hope staff do to you? Is it that you just hate losing to Hope, or losing by 65 to Hope?

I think I know some things that get under the skin of some Kzoo faithfull........96 NCAA First Round Hope/Kzoo, look it up if you don't know.

or.........they get tired of seeing more good Orange in the AAC than bad Orange everytime Hope plays down there.  Nothing like two road games vs Hope in one year. 

Could also be the 18 straight losses to Hope 

Honestly I don't know, I find it amusing though.

There's also some irony in the number of Dutch names you'll find in the Kzoo wall of fame.

[Gregory Sager]

There's also some irony in the number of Dutch names you'll find in the Kzoo wall of fame.

Why is that ironic? The city of Kalamazoo has a strong Dutch-American heritage (I oughta know, since it's where my Dutch-American great-grandmother was born and raised), as the sons and daughters of the Netherlands comprised at one time as much as one-fifth of the city's population. So my guess is that a fair amount of people from the area who've attended Kalamazoo College over the years were shoes.

[sac]

GS---the irony is the general dislike of all things dutch/Hope at K-college.  Its amusing to me.

[allsportball]

response to bulldogalum, you need to possible gain some coaching knowledge. To make a true and accurate evalution of this team. They have big men and with the right coaching would have been  developed into some of the best in the league. Yes turnovers are a problem might it be playing freshmen with no talent twenty minutes a game or the offensive they are trying to run? How about getting the bigs some touches any touches. How about not having Kubish starting lineup and not on the shooting list??? Designating only couple players to be the shooters in games and no one else even looks to the basket? All you have to do is double the shooters and leave everyone else open they won't shoot the ball. Nokivich is not a shooter and has not been for three years now he gets the green light to fire away. What either buck forgot why he didn't shoot past three years or he just one day became a shooter? 

[bulldogalum]

response to bulldogalum, you need to possible gain some coaching knowledge.

I'll get to work on that just as soon as you take some typing lessons.

To make a true and accurate evalution of this team.

I guess by "true and accurate evaluation" you mean "lose a game, fire the coach" or just "fire the coach because I dislike him."  Frankly, I'm sick of the "fire the coach" mentality that is running rampant in the sporting world right now.  When teams struggle, it's very easy to blame the coach, and many coaches choose to accept a large portion of the blame.  But the fact of the matter is, coaching is one (an important one, albeit) of several factors that have to be considered in assessing the reasons for a team's demise.  Unfortunately, thanks to the era of sportstalk and sensationalism, everyone pretty much ignores all the other factors and goes straight to the coach.  But I'll try to make a "true and accurate evaluation" for you.

They have big men and with the right coaching would have been  developed into some of the best in the league.

I'm not so sure that these guys have gotten such a raw deal.  I assume you're referring to Thornton and Bohlen.  Both have shown sparks this season, and both have developed quite a bit since they came in as freshmen.  Thornton came in as more of a shooter as I understand it, and has had to adjust to spending more time in the post.  He struggled offensively against Crawford yesterday, but has had some excellent games this year as well (at Tri State comes to mind).  The same is true of Bohlen.

Yes turnovers are a problem might it be playing freshmen with no talent twenty minutes a game or the offensive they are trying to run?

Freshmen with no talent.  You sound bitter.  First of all, I think that to say they have no talent is a huge disservice, as the freshmen that see significant playing time are both excellent shooters.  That being said, they have made some freshmen mistakes.  However, it is only through getting some experience and playing time that they will learn how to become leaders of the team in the future.  And, as I said in my previous post, the turnovers are pretty well spread out among all players, young and old.  If it was just a guy or two making all the turnovers, the solution would be simple:  bench them until they learn how to hang onto the ball.  But you can't really bench 10 guys now, can you?  The solution, in case you were wondering, is to look at the tape, and determine why and how we're having so many turnovers, and untimely turnovers at that.  Then, work on it at practice. 

Their offensive schemes got them in the top half of the MIAA the last several years, and to a couple of MIAA championship games.  As the great Pete Bell said in Blue Chips, "It's not the plays you run, g@*#$mmit, it's how you execute them."  Or something like that.

How about getting the bigs some touches any touches.

I've seen a few games this year, and some games they've done a better job of getting the ball into the post than others.  Yesterday, they tried to get it into the post when they could, but frankly, with the physical brand of ball the Britons play, Adrian struggled in the paint. 

How about not having Kubish starting lineup and not on the shooting list???

To my knowledge, Kubish started yesterday, and was the leading scorer yesterday.  I also believe he has started several games this season, and has scored points in many of them.  Therefore, I conclude that you are off base as it pertains to Kubish's role as a starter and as a shooter.  I assume you're talking about earlier in the season when Kubish did not always start.  I believe he was in a bit of a cold spell earlier in the year.  Around the start of the MIAA season, he started playing better, and began to earn starter status.  Coach Riley, amidst the struggles of this season, has also tried several different starting lineups, I'm guessing because he was looking for one particular group that would have better chemistry, or a better spark to them.  It's what coaches do when their team is struggling (but I wouldn't know that, since I know nothing about coaching).

Designating only couple players to be the shooters in games and no one else even looks to the basket? All you have to do is double the shooters and leave everyone else open they won't shoot the ball. Nokivich is not a shooter and has not been for three years now he gets the green light to fire away. What either buck forgot why he didn't shoot past three years or he just one day became a shooter?

Nokovich has been, and remains a pass first point guard.  But that does not mean he can't shoot or that he won't shoot.  One need only look at past Siena Heights games to see that Nokovich can score.  I think at this point in the season, he realizes that the team is lacking in the scoring department, as has decided to be more assertive offensively.  I don't know that Coach Riley has ever told Nok "I only want you to shoot 3 times tonight, no more," it's just a matter of fulfilling his role on the team.   His role has been to play tough defense and distribute the ball.  He's done that admirably in the past, receiving honors and praise from around the league.  This year, he's trying to score more because they need scorers, simple as that.

Word is Coach Buck Riley just recruited some tall, redheaded baseball player from the IM basketball courts.  It's doubtful he'll see much playing time, as he appears to lack all the major qualities of dominant big men around the league.  Adam Novak is his name, I believe.  He'll be sure to warm the end of the bench for years to come.

As a side note, I think the Bulldogs miss Schaefer and Novak more than anyone can imagine.  Not only were they the best players on the team, but along with Nokovich, they were the heart of that team.

[allsportball]

Wipe your chin and knees off when your done. Because you've missed a lot!

[bulldogalum]

clever

[sac]

He's just mad because you disected his post and rippied it apart.

[BogeyMan]

bulldogalum,
Was the dissertation above for a Master's or Doctorate degree?  You're to angry.  Lighten up and have some fun!

[bulldogalum]

Bogey Man, I'm really not angry.  I'm just trying to explain why the Bulldogs are struggling, and respond to criticisms of the program.  Also, I apologize for the inordinate length of that piece, what can I say, I'm long winded!

[ziggy]

Bogey Man, I'm really not angry.  I'm just trying to explain why the Bulldogs are struggling, and respond to criticisms of the program.  Also, I apologize for the inordinate length of that piece, what can I say, I'm long winded!

Basically Adrian has the same problems as the other schools not named Calvin, Hope, or Albion: They are doomed to draw from the same inferior talent pool year after year.  Albion has been able to build a strong basketball tradition while Calvin and Hope have strong school ties across the country within the denomination.  There is no way a school like Adrian would be able to get a kid like Caleb Veldhouse from Sioux Falls, SD.  The best the other schools seem to be destined to do is something like when we saw Adrian knock off Hope in the 2004 MIAA tournament semi-finals.  I don't think you need any more proof than to look at the past league champions and find that there hasnt been a champ other than Albion, Calvin, or Hope since 1978 when Alma tied with Albion.

[Stinger]

NW, I bleed black and orange, and generally don't like anything that is of rival colors. I've never been personally wronged by GVW, but I can tell you I saw right through he and Matt Neil during the recruiting process. And as for recruiting, if you think most coaches dont recruit with integrity, I would say you were mistaken. You think RP, and other coaches tell a kid he's going to start for them, paint an over rosy picture, or in your words "tell them what they want to hear"  to get them to come to their schools? Maybe a Huggins, Fischer or a Harrick.  I would not want to be a part of that program. 

[Stinger]

SAC,  thought I would add this from a fellow poster in response to your postings from last night:



Actually there is a movement afoot on the 'K' campus to have all 'those' people removed from the Hall of Fame.  They would also like to rename the Athletic Center because of Rolla Anderson allowing his grandsons to attend Hope College...traitor!

Please do not try to say that Kalamazoo College students hate people of Dutch descent.  I will not argue that there is a certain dislike for the Dutch, but only because that is quicker to say than 'Flying Dutchmen'.  It is has everything to do with Hope College and nothing to do with ethnic background.

You want to know why we dislike Hope College?  I should probably admit that I think a large part of it envy or jealousy.  I will also admit that a large part of it is the smugness that oozes from everything Hope.  I may be biased, but reading your post made my skin crawl.  Do others out there read it the same way or do I just read everything with an anti-Hope slant?

The jealousy.  I get jealous when I watch our football teams compete.  It breaks my heart to see our team battle so hard with under 60 players and come so close to beating your team of 140.  Our 5 offensive linemen barely able to walk off the field in the 4th quarter as Hope shuffles in wave after wave of defensive linemen.  I think a lot of the rivalry actually comes from football.  The battle for the wooden shoes, although lately as one-sided as basketball has been, is an important game for 'K' and I think that rivalry spreads throughout the athletic teams.  It is part of the reason that students don't get as fired up about Calvin.  Although we were outnumbered by your 'good' orange last night, you have to admit there was a great student turnout.  Okay, on to basketball...

You say that 'K' was outmanned.  Not being able to keep up with a team whose biggest concern right now is whether or not they should play their second Division I transfer of year because it might impact team chemistry?!?  Let's have a game with only those players who started their careers at each school.  No doubt Hope would still be very good, but think about where you would be without Eric Voisin, Marcus VanderHeide, Tim Partridge and Tyler Wolfe. 

Your friend says that 'K' could use some of your players.  How about the guys that Kalamazoo recruited who went to Hope with the idea that they were going to have a great Varsity career?  I am sure that Coach Passage would love to have Brett Jager in a Hornet uniform.  Dan Holt?  Jeff Spencer?  Scott Glaser?  And the worst thing is that most Hope fans would probably let 'K' have 'em because of your wonderful transfers.  (The second worst thing is that most Hope fans probably have no idea who Jeff Spencer is).

I could probably go on and on, but I think you get the point.  The only thing that I personally hold against people of Dutch heritage is my inability to turn left at certain stoplights across West Michigan.

On a side note, I heard now that the Ron Artest deal fell through, Coach VanWieren is attempting to bring another former Pacer, Rik Smits, out of retirement.  The sticking point is whether or not he can get his nickname, "The Dunking Dutchman", back from Steve Cramer.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

You say that 'K' was outmanned.  Not being able to keep up with a team whose biggest concern right now is whether or not they should play their second Division I transfer of year because it might impact team chemistry?!?  Let's have a game with only those players who started their careers at each school.  No doubt Hope would still be very good, but think about where you would be without Eric Voisin, Marcus VanderHeide, Tim Partridge and Tyler Wolfe. 

I have to say I am willing to take my chances with a starting line up of Immink, Cramer, Carlson, Phillips, and Richardson against anything Kzoo could offer.

[BogeyMan]

Ziggy,
You are absolutely right on the recruiting by the MIAA schools.  There is a distinct advantage for Hope & Calvin in their nationwide Christian search of basketball players.  That gives me just that much more respect for what Mike Turner has done with the Albion program over the years.  I do not put Albion in the same category as Hope and Calvin when it comes to recruiting because they for the most part recruit Michigan kids only.

Before all you Hope and Calvin fans get all upset, I do need to say that the advantage you have is a fair and just advantage because of the philosphies and traditions your schools have developed over many years.

This is the same problem many of the High School Athletic Associations in the midwest are facing with private schools that recruit high school kids competing against schools that can not recruit and use only those kids that have grown up in their communities.  I think you will find some states going to separate state tournaments for public and private schools soon or somehow evening the playing field.