MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

Sac:  Not to beat a dead horse, but most of the "issue" at CU was related to a drinking incident.  One other student athlete was involved in far worse conduct.  Like you the details on AV are hazy for me.   Once they go NAIA I sort of lose interest in the players.
FDF:  We touched on this subject once before, and at that time I expressed my respect for Hope for requiring Snikkers to serve his suspension.  Even if it is an NCAA rule I would like to think that Hope would have that as a standard.
I guess my uneasiness over accepting a large number of players in these situations is more the message it sends to those kids you worked to recruit right out of h.s.  Could they potentially interpret this as a college saying, "you were good enough for us when you were all we could get, but now that we think a better "talent" is available we are going to grab him/her,"  Obviously some school thought he/she deserved an athletic scholarship, while you may not have gotten those offers. 
I agree with Sac: that redshirting, and some of the other practices at scholarship programs could really be manipulated by a coach, but I think if AQ or CU pulls "stunts" on players year after year the word would get out not to trust what that coach says.  If I were one of the newly recruited fr. going to AQ I might be asking "what the heck is going on here"?  To me the risk of "churning" players is high enough that few coaches or schools dare do it very often.

[northb]

I guess my uneasiness over accepting a large number of players in these situations is more the message it sends to those kids you worked to recruit right out of h.s.  Could they potentially interpret this as a college saying, "you were good enough for us when you were all we could get, but now that we think a better "talent" is available we are going to grab him/her,"  Obviously some school thought he/she deserved an athletic scholarship, while you may not have gotten those offers. 

Oh boy!  Here we go again!       

[Civic Minded]

I guess my uneasiness over accepting a large number of players in these situations is more the message it sends to those kids you worked to recruit right out of h.s.  Could they potentially interpret this as a college saying, "you were good enough for us when you were all we could get, but now that we think a better "talent" is available we are going to grab him/her,"  Obviously some school thought he/she deserved an athletic scholarship, while you may not have gotten those offers. 

Oh boy!  Here we go again!       

LOL!  Kinda what I was thinking...   

[WWWRHH]

I may be treading on thin ice, but....

It does seem that Hope's men's program rely's on transfers to fuel its success.  This is in contrast to the Dutch (women's team) that seldom, if ever, brings in upper class transfers.  (Snikkers left Oakland during the first week of class having never practiced with the team).  Morehouse recruits, retains and develops players.  It is not unusual to watch players in the women's program greatly improve their skills and work their way up the rotation - that's the way Ellen Wood, Sarah Jurik, Lindsay Lange and Courtney Knox became key players.  I think it is more enjoyable to see the year to year continuity of the Dutch roster than the turnover that occurrs with the transfers that bolster the Dutchman.

And Morehouse's system has resulted in consistent excellance.  The women's team barely lost to the eventual national champion in the elte eight round and lost four starting seniors.  But their roster cupboard is not bare and there is no expectation that either new recruits, much less transfers, will be key parts of this year's rotation and, with only two seniors on the roster, the team looks pretty well set for the '09 -'10 season as well.  Can the same be said for the men's team.

Just something to think about....

[sac]

Whats also repeatedly (and to this point exasperatingly) forgotten or ignored is that every single one of the kids who have transferred to Hope, was recruited by Hope (and in most cases their final decision came down to Hope or scholarship).

The tinge of superiority others seem to feel from Hope takeing transfers is getting quite nauseating.

[hoopdreams]

many kids realize that the grass isn't always greener where it's cheaper.  They also have a real reality check as far as their place in the athletic pecking order, usually towards the bottom and some find out that basketball is only "an important part of their life" not their LIFE.  Others also realize that playing for a "bigger" school at a higher level, isn't necesarily better.  If Hope gets one more transfer who is contemplating coming, you'll understand exactly what I'm saying.

In resonse to an earlier comment about what the imcoming frosh at AQ must be thinking..... " More playing time for me" is what they're thinking.  My guess is that at least 2 of them, 1 that Hope liked, won't last for the duration either.

[sac]

Ok so now that the Champions League no longer has my attention ........a less snippy answer.


WWWRHH---You bring up good points.  I'm no expert on the women's side of Hope recruiting, but I don't believe Morehouse "loses" as many girls to the scholarship schools as the men do.  Every year I can count 2 or 3, sometimes up to 5 players who showed significant interest in the men's team take scholarships.  Some of those had the obvious talent to play up a level, others very marginal.  It would be different if Hope were getting kids from hundreds of miles away who Hope never recruited in the first place.......or were obviously much better than their D3 counterparts.   But for the most part, the kids who have transferred to Hope are local, and as I mentioned above (the more snippy response) for many the decision came down to Hope and whatever scholarship they took.  Despite the reputation that comes with being a D1 or D2 scholarship recipient, everyone of those transfers was a D3 talented player.  For all of the transfers who have come to Hope in recent years, one reached all-american status, and it took 3 years of development.  One was named the MIAA MVP.  Only 4 received first team all-MIAA status.  Voisin 06, Van Solkema 07, Wolfe and VanderHeide in 08.


There are about 1000 reasons kids may chose to transfer, for some reason most make the assumptions its all about basketball, but usually its something else.  Such as wanting to be closer to home, friends, family, girlfriends.   A change in academic direction such as the desire to coach and the opportunity for mentoring at Hope.  Or a coaching change at the scholarship school of choice and not being in the new coaches plans...........and perhaps just simply realizing the D1/D2/NAIA scholarship life is not for them and they may not have been good enough to play at that level.


Should Hope not be welcoming (or Welkoming) to these kids, should they simply turn their backs and say I'm sorry you had your chance?   I don't understand the fixation with asking how the other players in Hope's program might feel about transfers..........shouldn't the same questions be asked about Jimmy Strunk's presence at Calvin, or Derrick Griffin's......Ricky Shilts, Dan Aultman.  Didn't these guys take a spot from some JV hopefull.  What about Brandon McClary, Andre Collins-Riddle at Olivet, Desmond Young at Adrian, Robbie Clark, Lonnie Fulse, Brandon Crawford at Albion.  All players who started at other colleges.

Does your employer only higher from within, do they develop all of their own talent or do they bring someone in from the outside from time to time.  Real life?

Is there really any difference between a kid transfering and playing 3 years on varsity and a kid who plays 1 year on JV, 3 years on varsity?


Here's Hope's list of transfers I can recall in the last 5 years, as you'll see only a couple were actually "upper class" transfers.  Not all of these transfers were scholarship players either, a couple walked on at the scholarship school.

05 Jake Hoogeboom--Michigan State, Soph eligible, left after one season to pursue business opportunity
05 Eric Voisin--GVSU, Jr. Eligible, played 2 seasons

06 Tyler Wolfe--Ferris State, So eligible, played 3 seasons
06  Tim Partridge--Charleston, Jr. eligible, played 2 season
06 Marcus Vanderheide--Canisius, So eligible, played 3 seasons
06 Derek VanSolkema--Eastern Michigan, So eligible, played 2 1/2 seasons
06 Evan Hare--Evangel, So eligible, played 1/2 season, left do to injury

07 Tim Dykgraaf--Slippery Rock, So eligible, sat the bench for 1 season, I don't believe he tried out for the 08 Hope team
07 Zach Osburn--No Illinois (football), So eligible, played 2 seasons, will be Sr on 09 team

08 Cody Canaan--GRCC, Jr eligible according to program, not sure he'll try out next season

09 potentials  Snikkers and Venema, both would be Soph's, both need to actually make the team.

Home towns:  Grand Rapids, Suttons Bay, Saline, Cedar Springs, Grandville, Cutlerville, Coopersville, Kentwood, Holland, Grandville...........8 of 10 from the immediate Grand Rapids area.


The economic realities of college expenses is going to dictate the trend of transfers to Hope and yes the rest of the MIAA will continue, its just a reality.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

The tinge of superiority others seem to feel from Hope takeing transfers is getting quite nauseating.

Yes I too can feel the Hope women's program just looking down their noses at the men's team with all their cheap transfers.  But I think they're really just jealous that they had to share the "undefeated-at-home-for-a-season" banner. 

[Pat Coleman]

Whats also repeatedly (and to this point exasperatingly) forgotten or ignored is that every single one of the kids who have transferred to Hope, was recruited by Hope (and in most cases their final decision came down to Hope or scholarship).

Like many schools who get Division I transfers.

[HopeConvert]

Let's not forget that sports is one of the few remaining meritocracies in this culture - and thank goodness for that. Anyone who has played sports knows that if someone better comes along, you are going to be sitting. Granted, there is a lot that goes into that term "better" and how talent gets melded into a team structure; but still, the knowledge that nothing is guaranteed you is part of what pushes individuals to keep developing their abilities. I don't buy the implicit argument that individuals are entitled to status and playing time, and I can't imagine coaches promising recruits the same. You have to earn what you get in a competitive environment, and constantly prove yourself. That's one of the things that makes sports compelling.

[realist]

HC:  You almost had me until I realized agreeing with your post would mean coaches are like little gods.  Sadly, most of the coaches I know or have know, are fallible human beings with likes and dislikes, and some might even play favorites.     However, you are right on your point that determining "better" really is very subjective.

[devossed]

i think SAC and FDF have really hit it on the head with their thoughts on the transfer situation at Hope...the reality is, nearly every one of those kids who transferred over has earned (or is on pace to earn) a degree from hope (hogeboom being the 1 exception). they first come for and get a great education, but the other reasons are compelling: to play for a legendary mentor, and because hope showed an interest in them out of high school, and because basketball is sometimes secondary to life.

that being said, this could be the most wide-open roster hope has seen in years:

+ 8-9 returnees (depending on canan trying out, as sac mentioned)
+ 7 JVs who i could see trying out (boersma, carroll, cox, guimond, keyser, nelis, wiese)
+ 3-4 transfers (cornerstone's boys + jorin scott)
+ a host of freshman with talent: krombeen, king, neil, ross, parkes, wilmers

**easily 25 guys who can vie for 13-15 spots? should be an interesting summer league, to say the least.

[sac]

+ a host of freshman with talent: krombeen, king, neil, ross, parkes, wilmers

Did someone change their mind?

[Civic Minded]

Let's not count Canan out just yet, shall we?  Or was there a memo I didn't get? 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Let's not count Canan out just yet, shall we?  Or was there a memo I didn't get? 

Especially since he has two more years of elligibility left (program listed him as a Jr but eligibility wise he was a So)