MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[thealmascots]

RE:  Top players since 78.  To avoid having a bias towards earlier players I suggest a person look at the MIAA site to find All MIAA first team players.
From there compute the number of players that were 4 time All MIAA 1st team.  All MIAA 1st team four years is a short list.   
Factor in that C. Veldhouse at Calvin has the potential to join that list this season. 
Next look at the players that have made 1st team 3 years, and work from there. 
This board never has, and  probably never will reach a concensus of the top 5 for any time period.  Leaving somebody like Elliot, Gugino, Sall or Holstege off the list is a really hard decision.    
I have been posting way to long to ever expect any Hope poster to agree that Veldhouse goes on the list over either Holstege or Elliot.    However,  Veldhouse was able to do something as a fr. that neither of them did.   That is why I asked a number of pages back if any of this years fr. class has the potential to have that level of impact.

I'll just say one thing about Veldhouse.  His stats by the end of his career may give him a good argument to put him very high on some lists, such as the one being discussed now, but Veldhouse has to show this season that he can be a good team-leader to be in this discussion.  Although he has an outright miaa championship and a miaa tourney championship, he is still 3-9 vs Hope (Yes, that is very important stat), and he hasn't been past the second round in the NCAA tourney.

Bottom line is, he already has the stats to put him up there with the greats if you go strictly by stats, but I say he needs to win the MIAA regular season, win the MIAA MVP, go at least 2-0 or 2-1 against Hope, and go to at least the NCAA sweet 16 to be up there with the greats in my book.  I know those are all tough accomplishments, but they are all reachable.

Sorry, but unless Veldhouse averages a triple double and leads his team to a national championship this season, I just don't see it.

Well he is the clear favorite to win the mvp right now.  Calvin could easily be chosen to win the league by the coaches.  Winning both games against Hope is obviously possible.  And winning just 2 tourney games could easily happen.

I am not saying if he doesn't do these things, that they will tarnish his legacy or anything.  I just think to be in a top 5 list, he needs to accomplish a lot his senior season.

My personal opinion about Veldhouse is that he is still behind Aaron Winkle and Jeremy Veenstra even at Calvin, but another great player that he is definitely trailing and of similar size is Chris Knoester.  Look up Knoesters stats and they are all-time great level.  He is often forgotten because he played his first three years with Steve Honderd.  His freshman year he played behind Todd Hennink so his minutes were limited, but he had some big moments that year (Hope fans may remember the overtime of the NCAA tournament game in '91).  He was a huge part of the best Calvin teams ever and his senior year, after Honderd graduated, he carried Calvin back to an unexpected MIAA regular season and tournament title and back to the NCAA's.  Over 1700 career points, 3 MIAA titles, 3 (out of possible 3) MIAA tournament titles, 4 NCAA appearances, 3 final 8 appearances and a national championship. 

[calvinite]

LTK: J Veenstra was one of the select group of players that was 1st team All MIAA 4 years.  You might want to look at www.miaa.org to look at the selections yourself.

I took Realist's advice and visited www.miaa.org and found out that in addition to making the all MIAA team 4 times, Veenstra was MVP twice, not once as I indicated earlier (and not co-mvp with anyone, either). I'd be surprised if any other player since 1978 has these awards (plus a national championship to boot). I don't know about the stats of the players and the like, but I think any 'greatest MIAA players' team would need to include Veenstra--especially if limited it to the last 30 years or so.

[Knightmare]

I think when putting together that list, Aaron Winkle is flying a little to far under the radar.  Let's not forget that he was the National Player of the Year (and obviously MIAA MVP as well) and the unquestioned leader and heart and soul of the 2000 National Champs.

His impact and talent can not be measured in point totals alone.  He brought a little of everything to the table in a complete package.  They certainly had many talented players but don't come close to winning the championship without his talent and leadership.

[thealmascots]

LTK: J Veenstra was one of the select group of players that was 1st team All MIAA 4 years.  You might want to look at www.miaa.org to look at the selections yourself.

I took Realist's advice and visited www.miaa.org and found out that in addition to making the all MIAA team 4 times, Veenstra was MVP twice, not once as I indicated earlier (and not co-mvp with anyone, either). I'd be surprised if any other player since 1978 has these awards (plus a national championship to boot). I don't know about the stats of the players and the like, but I think any 'greatest MIAA players' team would need to include Veenstra--especially if limited it to the last 30 years or so.

LTK - I'm assuming you mean in addition to Honderd and Winkle, who also won two outright MVP's and a National Championship.  In fact, I could have sworn that Honderd had 3 and was co-MVP with Eric Elliott in '91 - Honderd's sophomore year, but the MIAA.org just says Elliott.

Oh, and my last post about Knoester I neglected to list his 1994 MIAA MVP award in his list of accomplishments.

[realist]

The original question was the best "players" since 1978 not the best teams.  To me it is unfair to punish a Veldhouse who shows great stats, but plays on a team that has underperformed like it did last year.  If a player from Alma, Kalamazoo, Olivet, Albion or Adrian had made All MIAA 1st team 4 years they would also deserve serious consideration based on the strenght of their performance.

[calvinite]

LTK: J Veenstra was one of the select group of players that was 1st team All MIAA 4 years.  You might want to look at www.miaa.org to look at the selections yourself.

I took Realist's advice and visited www.miaa.org and found out that in addition to making the all MIAA team 4 times, Veenstra was MVP twice, not once as I indicated earlier (and not co-mvp with anyone, either). I'd be surprised if any other player since 1978 has these awards (plus a national championship to boot). I don't know about the stats of the players and the like, but I think any 'greatest MIAA players' team would need to include Veenstra--especially if limited it to the last 30 years or so.

LTK - I'm assuming you mean in addition to Honderd and Winkle, who also won two outright MVP's and a National Championship.  In fact, I could have sworn that Honderd had 3 and was co-MVP with Eric Elliott in '91 - Honderd's sophomore year, but the MIAA.org just says Elliott.

Oh, and my last post about Knoester I neglected to list his 1994 MIAA MVP award in his list of accomplishments.

Honderd, Winkle, and Elliot each made the All MIAA 3 times each; Veenstra is the only one of those these individual to make it 4 times.  I don't think any of the other players made it 4 times either, but I didn't check.

[realist]

LTK:  Now you are getting the hang of this.  However, Honderd had 4 MIAA 1st teams. 90, 1,2, & 3.  Bosma from Hope also had 4.  The MIAA 1st team is normally heavy on Jr's and Sr's so a So or a Fr getting that recognition to me indicates a special player regardless what team or school they play on or for.  It is a bit hard to make an even comparison as some years had 5 1st team players, and some as many as 8 so technically it was easier for Veldhouse to make it as a fr. than it would have been for Elliot, but not Holstege.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

It's also difficult to make these assessments as the overall strength of the league has fluctuated.  Being a 1st teamer in some years is much more difficult to achieve than in other years. 

[calvinite]

LTK:  Now you are getting the hang of this.  However, Honderd had 4 MIAA 1st teams. 90, 1,2, & 3.  Bosma from Hope also had 4.  The MIAA 1st team is normally heavy on Jr's and Sr's so a So or a Fr getting that recognition to me indicates a special player regardless what team or school they play on or for.  It is a bit hard to make an even comparison as some years had 5 1st team players, and some as many as 8 so technically it was easier for Veldhouse to make it as a fr. than it would have been for Elliot, but not Holstege.

Thanks, Realist, but I don't think I'm getting the hang of this at all (I can't even count to 4!). So I'll ask a question rather than put forward a hypothesis....  Are there different numbers of players selected for the 1st team on different years based on the someone's (coaches', press, whomever) views about how strong the league is on any given year? In other words, when the league is stronger, are there more likely be more players and vice-versa? Also, who does select the MIAA First Team Players?

[OC_SID]

LTK:  Now you are getting the hang of this.  However, Honderd had 4 MIAA 1st teams. 90, 1,2, & 3.  Bosma from Hope also had 4.  The MIAA 1st team is normally heavy on Jr's and Sr's so a So or a Fr getting that recognition to me indicates a special player regardless what team or school they play on or for.  It is a bit hard to make an even comparison as some years had 5 1st team players, and some as many as 8 so technically it was easier for Veldhouse to make it as a fr. than it would have been for Elliot, but not Holstege.

Thanks, Realist, but I don't think I'm getting the hang of this at all (I can't even count to 4!). So I'll ask a question rather than put forward a hypothesis....  Are there different numbers of players selected for the 1st team on different years based on the someone's (coaches', press, whomever) views about how strong the league is on any given year? In other words, when the league is stronger, are there more likely be more players and vice-versa? Also, who does select the MIAA First Team Players?

LTK -- the All-MIAA teams are selected by the coaches ... As far as I can remember, each team used to be eight players (16 total players) until last year it was changed and only six players were selected to each team (12 total players).

[GoKnights68]

Here's a little interview with KVS about this up and coming season in audio-form.


http://www.calvin.edu/sports/audio/Men'sBasketball/KevinVande%20StreekPreSeason102908.mp3

[wiz]

How about a new topic for the old guys on this board:  Who are the top 5 MIAA players since 1978 (when I believe the MIAA starting sending a rep to the NCAA tournament). 

Here are mine:

Steve Honderd - Calvin
Eric Elliott - Hope
Wade Gugino - Hope
Bill Sall - Calvin
Joel Holstege - Hope

Don't forget Brad "Mama" Capel - Calvin

Let's not forget Jeff Overway!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Hope has posted their pre-season outlook here:

http://www.hope.edu/pr/athletics/mbb/

[scottiedawg]

Coaches poll is out.  Calvin picked to finish first with five first-place votes.  Hope picked to finish second with three first-place votes.

[MIdoubleA]

Do you think the coaches read this board?

If so, how much?

A lot of our recent convo is almost mirrored in the pre-season poll.