MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[northb]

For those of us who are neither Hope or Calvin fans, could we please give "the rivalry" a rest?  While I'm as competitive as anyone, it is after all only a basketball game!

Going a step further, do Hope and Calvin fans take their witness seriously?  Do they think that their conduct during basketball games has no effect on their witness?  Is it just "innocent" fun when a fan trips or tackles a fan from the other school?  How about throwing items onto the court after the other team wins the championship?  What about adult fans who yell (and swear and threaten) fans from the other team?  As a Christian, I am disgusted at the witness of both Hope and Calvin from this past weekend...

You are a Hope fan, evne though you try to disguise it because it is only fair to be neutral and support all teams, blah, blah, blah.  I wouldn't be surprised if you are a retired minister or professor.

In a previous post, you wrote, I've had the experience over the last few years that while I enjoy competition as much as anyone, once the athletic contest is over, it is over.  My self esteem is not changed by whether "my" team won or lost, and I certainly hope that none of the player's self esteem has been changed, at least in the long run.


Well, I believe in the rivalry and, like you, I too am so worried about self-esteem that I really feel for those Platteville players that might be looking at this site and read how we're all ganging up on them and coming together for Hope to send these poor cheese-heads to the depths of defeat and despair.  What kind of witness might that be?  So, I guess I'll just have to support UWP this time around.

I'll take it as a compliment about being either a retired pastor or professor.  The truth is that I'm neither.  The truth is that year by year, I become less and less of a basketball fan because of the behavior of Calvin and Hope fans, especially when they play against each other.  Perhaps this is a good thing - life is certainly much bigger than basketball.

I've been trying to stay on the sidelines on this back and forth, but I would like us to remember what pointlem said a few pages back: 99% of the adherents in this rivalry conduct themselves with class and grace. It's amazing how much good will there is in a rivalry this intense. Through this board I have met Calvin posters who have provided me with wonderful conversation and companionship - as well as some fun golf. Our student sections may occasionally cross a line, but at least everyone involved recognizes there are lines to be crossed (you paying attention Duke?). We are intense during the game and friendly after. I sit next to my best friend during the games, and he happens to teach at Calvin, and it has not diminished our friendship in any way, even though I cheer loudly and lustily for Hope. We are two schools divided by a mutual tradition, but ultimately bound together much more by what unites us than separated by what divides us. The Hope/Calvin games are a great atmosphere, intensely played and usually at a high level, and generally done with fine sportsmanship. They make me more of a basketball fan. Part of the attraction of any game is the subordination and loss of the self, and the rivalry game provides a wonderful, if vicarious, opportunity to do so.

Hear! Hear!  I think it says more about the observer than the observed if you notice the very few people who portray a poor witness and focus on that, than those that can observe this "family reunion" and see all the good.  This rivalry is good and fun in so many ways.  Rarely (even on this board) does the good-natured fun get out of hand.  And when it does, we are open to correction from others (peers or elders).  What other rivalry can compare in the overall tone, as well as the sheer competition; close games, exciting finishes, etc.?  Enjoy it!

[calvin_grad]

As a fan of Calvin, and the MIAA I stand to gain more by any success the Hope team might have than I would by their failure.  Not to support the MIAA representative strikes me as petty or worse.   

I'll take this in a different direction because I've always been curious regarding this argument:  As a Calvin and MIAA fan, what do you stand to gain from Hope winning?  Pride in your league?  Does Hope winning a game or 2 or 6 really boost the MIAA in the eyes of the rest of the country?  If I had to guess, a lot of the rest of the country views the MIAA (in basketball) as Hope, Calvin, and everyone else.  Does Hope winning really boost the reputation of the league?  Hope's reputation is already pretty solid, I would guess.

Just curious.  How many Calvin fans will root for Hope in the NCAA tourney and how many Hope fans have rooted for Calvin?  Maybe a poll question?

[miaafan2]

For those of us who are neither Hope or Calvin fans, could we please give "the rivalry" a rest?  While I'm as competitive as anyone, it is after all only a basketball game!

Going a step further, do Hope and Calvin fans take their witness seriously?  Do they think that their conduct during basketball games has no effect on their witness?  Is it just "innocent" fun when a fan trips or tackles a fan from the other school?  How about throwing items onto the court after the other team wins the championship?  What about adult fans who yell (and swear and threaten) fans from the other team?  As a Christian, I am disgusted at the witness of both Hope and Calvin from this past weekend...

You are a Hope fan, evne though you try to disguise it because it is only fair to be neutral and support all teams, blah, blah, blah.  I wouldn't be surprised if you are a retired minister or professor.

In a previous post, you wrote, I've had the experience over the last few years that while I enjoy competition as much as anyone, once the athletic contest is over, it is over.  My self esteem is not changed by whether "my" team won or lost, and I certainly hope that none of the player's self esteem has been changed, at least in the long run.


Well, I believe in the rivalry and, like you, I too am so worried about self-esteem that I really feel for those Platteville players that might be looking at this site and read how we're all ganging up on them and coming together for Hope to send these poor cheese-heads to the depths of defeat and despair.  What kind of witness might that be?  So, I guess I'll just have to support UWP this time around.

I'll take it as a compliment about being either a retired pastor or professor.  The truth is that I'm neither.  The truth is that year by year, I become less and less of a basketball fan because of the behavior of Calvin and Hope fans, especially when they play against each other.  Perhaps this is a good thing - life is certainly much bigger than basketball.

I've been trying to stay on the sidelines on this back and forth, but I would like us to remember what pointlem said a few pages back: 99% of the adherents in this rivalry conduct themselves with class and grace. It's amazing how much good will there is in a rivalry this intense. Through this board I have met Calvin posters who have provided me with wonderful conversation and companionship - as well as some fun golf. Our student sections may occasionally cross a line, but at least everyone involved recognizes there are lines to be crossed (you paying attention Duke?). We are intense during the game and friendly after. I sit next to my best friend during the games, and he happens to teach at Calvin, and it has not diminished our friendship in any way, even though I cheer loudly and lustily for Hope. We are two schools divided by a mutual tradition, but ultimately bound together much more by what unites us than separated by what divides us. The Hope/Calvin games are a great atmosphere, intensely played and usually at a high level, and generally done with fine sportsmanship. They make me more of a basketball fan. Part of the attraction of any game is the subordination and loss of the self, and the rivalry game provides a wonderful, if vicarious, opportunity to do so.

Hear! Hear!  I think it says more about the observer than the observed if you notice the very few people who portray a poor witness and focus on that, than those that can observe this "family reunion" and see all the good.  This rivalry is good and fun in so many ways.  Rarely (even on this board) does the good-natured fun get out of hand.  And when it does, we are open to correction from others (peers or elders).  What other rivalry can compare in the overall tone, as well as the sheer competition; close games, exciting finishes, etc.?  Enjoy it!

Thanks for the recent responses - I do appreciate them and the perspective they provide.  I agree that most fans do act in an appropriate manner at the Calvin v. Hope games.  This is indeed a positive witness to use the terminology I used in an earlier post.  I guess a large part of my concern is looking at where the rivalry has been in the past and where it is going in the future.  I was a student at Calvin in the 1980's when the situation with the Hope player (with the last name of Dennison I believe) got out of hand.  Bob Becker wrote a column in the Grand Rapids Press about how two Christian colleges could allow a situation to get so out of hand that student athletes were fearful for their safety.  That situation was certainly ugly, and I guess I don't want the current situation to continue to move in that direction.

I agree that the rivalry should be fun, and even intense at times.  Can we have this and maintain a positive atmosphere at the same time?

[Gregory Sager]

As a fan of Calvin, and the MIAA I stand to gain more by any success the Hope team might have than I would by their failure.  Not to support the MIAA representative strikes me as petty or worse.   

I'll take this in a different direction because I've always been curious regarding this argument:  As a Calvin and MIAA fan, what do you stand to gain from Hope winning?  Pride in your league?  Does Hope winning a game or 2 or 6 really boost the MIAA in the eyes of the rest of the country?  If I had to guess, a lot of the rest of the country views the MIAA (in basketball) as Hope, Calvin, and everyone else.  Does Hope winning really boost the reputation of the league?  Hope's reputation is already pretty solid, I would guess.

Just curious.  How many Calvin fans will root for Hope in the NCAA tourney and how many Hope fans have rooted for Calvin?  Maybe a poll question?

This is a good question, and I think that you might be on to something. Most of us CCIW types take it for granted that the league puts its best foot forward when it has postseason success, and thus whichever team or teams represent us in the tourney is/are carrying the flag for the rest of us whose teams didn't get in. Of course, we don't have a rivalry as intense as Hope/Calvin, but it's not as though we easily put our animosities aside at the drop of a hat, either. There's always at least a hint of ambivalence in that sort of adopt-your-rival postseason attitude. You're not likely to find me or any other Parker rooting for Wheaton to win at anything without a really, really good reason. But the overall pride and prestige of the league seems to be a good enough reason for a lot of us.

But the MIAA is different, because, as you said, to outsiders it's so often been perceived as the Big Two And A Bunch Of Other Schools That Mostly Start With 'A'. Yes, Albion made a Final Four appearance back in '78 when it had the great John Nibert, and it's made the league more of a three-team affair in this decade on a few occasions. But other than that -- and that's a quarter-century of Albion being just another MIAA also-ran, incidentally -- it's been unrelentingly Hope and Calvin. Calvin and Hope. Hope and Calvin. Year after year after year. Kalamazoo has made the tourney only once, back in '96, and Hope promptly bounced the Hornets from the tourney in the first round. Alma, Adrian, and Olivet -- three-sevenths of the long-term members of the league -- have never made the tourney. Latecomer Trine has never made it, either.

In other words, perhaps the circumstances are a little different for you guys. Everyone in the country who follows D3 respects Hope and Calvin in terms of basketball, because the Dutch and the Knights have earned it over the decades both in non-conference play and in postseason play. But I'm not sure that this respect extends to the rest of the league, because it seems as though Hope and Calvin have been doing it forever without being pushed much by their MIAA compatriots. Perhaps it'll take postseason success by someone other than Hope or Calvin to bring more respect to the league, because I'm not sure that the two Dutch-American schools have long coattails in that regard.

[oldknight]

+k to FDF and HC. The occasional over-the-top negativity that comes up during the Rivalry reminds me of the great overall record the airline industry has when it comes to landing planes--it's only when when one crashes that we seem to notice. As FDF correctly observed, Aurora was blown away by the fact that Calvin/Hope fans could actually be civil after the NCAA tournament game that was played on their floor. When it comes to rooting for Hope, I find myself in bulldogalum's camp. If Hope is the conference representative, I want them to win, though I'll admit, I wouldn't let a Hope loss ruin my weekend. I assume most Hope fans have similar feelings when the shoe is on the other foot.

[hope1]

when  hope or calvin is in the ncaa or other schools in the miaa i always root for them to do well  it helps the league  and good support

[sac]

If my math is correct. Jesse Reimink will go into Friday's game with 533 career rebounds. This puts him 5th all-time in the MIAA, behind Willie Dawkins of Alma (551) but well ahead of Craig Vossekuil of Kalamazoo (441). He is still far behind Floyd Brady's all-time Hope (and league) record of 648.  Jesse, Travis DePree, and Jeremy Veenstra are the only players of this decade in the top ten. He is Hope's 27th league MVP, 6 ahead of Calvin.

Those rebounding records from years ago are something........of all the MIAA records I doubt anyone will come very close to breaking those.

REBOUNDING Number
1. Floyd Brady, Hope, 64-68 648
2. Mark Veenstra, Calvin, 70-74 615
3. Gordon Lofts, Olivet, 64-68 603
4. Willie Dawkins, Alma, 70-74 551
5. Craig Vossekuil, Kazoo, 66-70 441
6. Kevin York, Kalamazoo, 73-77 412
7. Travis DePree, Albion, 01-05     397
8. David Dame, Kalamazoo, 75-76     389
9. Jeremy Veenstra, Calvin, 99-03 373
10. Curtis Williams, Adrian, 75-79 371
10. Aaron Winkle, Calvin, 96-00 371


Floyd Brady's avg for 48 games would be 13.5 which is great...........but I don't think Floyd played his Freshmen year so I'm not sure thats correct.  It may be 18 per game over 3 years which is just awesome.

But to avg 13.5 over 4 years with a 14 game schedule now would be 756 rebounds.

I just don't think thats going to happen anytime soon, not the way today's game is played with multiple substitutions and so many gaurds being taught to hit the boards.  (Krombenn, D. Smith are great examples)

Michael McClary, Olivet has 266 league rebounds in two years, he's not going to break the record but he has a strong shot at the top 5.

John Mantel, Calvin has 250 league rebounds in 3 years, he's probably going to finish pretty close to Jeremy Veenstra's number.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

A quick team stats comparison for Hope & UWP.  Might be redundant, but I've been doing it the last few years so what the heck

Offense	% 2pt	% 3pt	% FT
Hope	51	35.8	76.5
UW-Platteville	56	39.8	76.7
Defense	% 2pt	% 3pt
Hope	45.5	33.9
UW-Platteville	51.2	30.6
Rebounding	Team	Opp	Margin
Hope	36.2	33.6	2.6
UW-Platteville	29.7	25.4	4.3
Scoring	Team	Opp	Margin
Hope	75.6	67.1	8.5
UW-Platteville	73.1	60.7	12.4
3 point shooting	Attempts	Made	Made/game
Hope	439	157	5.6
UW-Platteville	500	199	7.4
Blocks	Total	per game
Hope	92	3.3
UW-Platteville	62	2.3
Steals	Total	per game
Hope	237	8.5
UW-Platteville	162	6
Turnovers	Total	per game
Hope	327	11.7
UW-Platteville	345	12.8
Assists	Total	per game
Hope	390	13.9
UW-Platteville	379	14
Assist/Turnover
Hope	1.2
OWU	1.1

[GoKnights68]

Team capsules:

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x617077414/NCAA-Division-III-Tournament-Mens-capsules

I found it hard to believe this is UW Platteville's first trip to the NCAA's since 1998 like the "capsule" states.  Probably because UWP won the 1999 National Championship.

During the 90's they were a fixture in March, they made the tournament every year from 91-99 and bost an unbelievable 30-5 tournament record with 4 National Championships.  1991, 1995, 1998, 1999

It's not every day you can hear the "where's your banners" chant two straight games.

"Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap,   clap,clap,clap> "Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap  clap,clap,clap "Where is Calvin?"

Classy, Sac.

Calvin will still have the 2009 MIAA Champions trophy in their trophy case back in GR.

Did Calvin have bragging rights over Hope in 2004?

[GoKnights68]

This may be totally irrelevant but who's Niebs and Vander Bent?  Any relation to the "incident?"  

Those two guys are Calvin students who some may say are the 'cause' of the "incident," others argue it was the Hope kid running in front of the Calvin section...    Caleb Nykamp is his name, I believe.

Anyone in their right mind knows there was no right and no excuse for the Calvin fans to do that.  Nobody is saying is was the Hope kid's fault I would hope.

[sac]

Team capsules:

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x617077414/NCAA-Division-III-Tournament-Mens-capsules

I found it hard to believe this is UW Platteville's first trip to the NCAA's since 1998 like the "capsule" states.  Probably because UWP won the 1999 National Championship.

During the 90's they were a fixture in March, they made the tournament every year from 91-99 and bost an unbelievable 30-5 tournament record with 4 National Championships.  1991, 1995, 1998, 1999

It's not every day you can hear the "where's your banners" chant two straight games.

"Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap,   clap,clap,clap> "Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap  clap,clap,clap "Where is Calvin?"

Classy, Sac.

Calvin will still have the 2009 MIAA Champions trophy in their trophy case back in GR.

Did Calvin have bragging rights over Hope in 2004?

Clearly you missed the context it was posted in.

[GoKnights68]

Team capsules:

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x617077414/NCAA-Division-III-Tournament-Mens-capsules

I found it hard to believe this is UW Platteville's first trip to the NCAA's since 1998 like the "capsule" states.  Probably because UWP won the 1999 National Championship.

During the 90's they were a fixture in March, they made the tournament every year from 91-99 and bost an unbelievable 30-5 tournament record with 4 National Championships.  1991, 1995, 1998, 1999

It's not every day you can hear the "where's your banners" chant two straight games.

"Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap,   clap,clap,clap> "Where is Calvin?" <clap, clap  clap,clap,clap "Where is Calvin?"

Classy, Sac.

Calvin will still have the 2009 MIAA Champions trophy in their trophy case back in GR.

Did Calvin have bragging rights over Hope in 2004?

Clearly you missed the context it was posted in.

No I read the whole thing.  I just don't get how someone that constantly preaches how a couple of his Hope buddies got scared away because this board was "too mean," so we all need to act nicer, can then go post something like that.

Look, I've never even mentioned the whole "banner" thing before on here.  I agree that it is annoying if you were a Hope fan, but if it is so annoying, then you should just ignore it.

[oldknight]

If my math is correct. Jesse Reimink will go into Friday's game with 533 career rebounds. This puts him 5th all-time in the MIAA, behind Willie Dawkins of Alma (551) but well ahead of Craig Vossekuil of Kalamazoo (441). He is still far behind Floyd Brady's all-time Hope (and league) record of 648.  Jesse, Travis DePree, and Jeremy Veenstra are the only players of this decade in the top ten. He is Hope's 27th league MVP, 6 ahead of Calvin.

Those rebounding records from years ago are something........of all the MIAA records I doubt anyone will come very close to breaking those.

REBOUNDING Number
1. Floyd Brady, Hope, 64-68 648
2. Mark Veenstra, Calvin, 70-74 615
3. Gordon Lofts, Olivet, 64-68 603
4. Willie Dawkins, Alma, 70-74 551
5. Craig Vossekuil, Kazoo, 66-70 441
6. Kevin York, Kalamazoo, 73-77 412
7. Travis DePree, Albion, 01-05     397
8. David Dame, Kalamazoo, 75-76     389
9. Jeremy Veenstra, Calvin, 99-03 373
10. Curtis Williams, Adrian, 75-79 371
10. Aaron Winkle, Calvin, 96-00 371


Floyd Brady's avg for 48 games would be 13.5 which is great...........but I don't think Floyd played his Freshmen year so I'm not sure thats correct.  It may be 18 per game over 3 years which is just awesome.

But to avg 13.5 over 4 years with a 14 game schedule now would be 756 rebounds.

I just don't think thats going to happen anytime soon, not the way today's game is played with multiple substitutions and so many gaurds being taught to hit the boards.  (Krombenn, D. Smith are great examples)

Michael McClary, Olivet has 266 league rebounds in two years, he's not going to break the record but he has a strong shot at the top 5.

John Mantel, Calvin has 250 league rebounds in 3 years, he's probably going to finish pretty close to Jeremy Veenstra's number.

Mr. Brady was a four year varsity performer at Hope. He scored 24 as a freshmen during Hope's 104-102 double overtime win at the Civic Center. Sac may never have seen Hope win at the buzzer but I did--actually several minutes after the buzzer--when another freshmen, Don Kronemeyer, hit two unjustifiably awarded free throws at the Civic Center. Not that I'm bitter about it. I watched it on TV, the first televised Calvin/Hope game I ever saw. It was also the first (and only) time I ever actually shed tears over an athletic event. But hey, I was only eleven at the time so give me a break.

As for rebounding records, when Bill DeHorn was a freshmen for the Knights he snared 205 rebounds for the season in just 12 games. He went to Wake Forest the following year, Taylor University the next, and then returned to Calvin to close out his gypsy college career.

BTW, Mark Veenstra and Willie Dawkins both played between 73-77, not 70-74 as you mention. Dawkins was one of the most impressive basketball athletes ever in the MIAA. He was usually listed 6'3" or 6'4" but that was only if you counted the 'fro he sported. He was a muscular 6'2". I was speaking this year to a Calvin hoopster and a competitor of Willie who assured me that Dawkins could actually touch the rim with his hair. Even granting him two inches of 'fro, that's amazing.

[sac]

Is this where we discuss how sensitive I am?

[ChicagoHopeNut]

As a fan of Calvin, and the MIAA I stand to gain more by any success the Hope team might have than I would by their failure.  Not to support the MIAA representative strikes me as petty or worse.   

I'll take this in a different direction because I've always been curious regarding this argument:  As a Calvin and MIAA fan, what do you stand to gain from Hope winning?  Pride in your league?  Does Hope winning a game or 2 or 6 really boost the MIAA in the eyes of the rest of the country?  If I had to guess, a lot of the rest of the country views the MIAA (in basketball) as Hope, Calvin, and everyone else.  Does Hope winning really boost the reputation of the league?  Hope's reputation is already pretty solid, I would guess.

Just curious.  How many Calvin fans will root for Hope in the NCAA tourney and how many Hope fans have rooted for Calvin?  Maybe a poll question?

This is a good question, and I think that you might be on to something. Most of us CCIW types take it for granted that the league puts its best foot forward when it has postseason success, and thus whichever team or teams represent us in the tourney is/are carrying the flag for the rest of us whose teams didn't get in. Of course, we don't have a rivalry as intense as Hope/Calvin, but it's not as though we easily put our animosities aside at the drop of a hat, either. There's always at least a hint of ambivalence in that sort of adopt-your-rival postseason attitude. You're not likely to find me or any other Parker rooting for Wheaton to win at anything without a really, really good reason. But the overall pride and prestige of the league seems to be a good enough reason for a lot of us.

But the MIAA is different, because, as you said, to outsiders it's so often been perceived as the Big Two And A Bunch Of Other Schools That Mostly Start With 'A'. Yes, Albion made a Final Four appearance back in '78 when it had the great John Nibert, and it's made the league more of a three-team affair in this decade on a few occasions. But other than that -- and that's a quarter-century of Albion being just another MIAA also-ran, incidentally -- it's been unrelentingly Hope and Calvin. Calvin and Hope. Hope and Calvin. Year after year after year. Kalamazoo has made the tourney only once, back in '96, and Hope promptly bounced the Hornets from the tourney in the first round. Alma, Adrian, and Olivet -- three-sevenths of the long-term members of the league -- have never made the tourney. Latecomer Trine has never made it, either.

In other words, perhaps the circumstances are a little different for you guys. Everyone in the country who follows D3 respects Hope and Calvin in terms of basketball, because the Dutch and the Knights have earned it over the decades both in non-conference play and in postseason play. But I'm not sure that this respect extends to the rest of the league, because it seems as though Hope and Calvin have been doing it forever without being pushed much by their MIAA compatriots. Perhaps it'll take postseason success by someone other than Hope or Calvin to bring more respect to the league, because I'm not sure that the two Dutch-American schools have long coattails in that regard.

I'd agree with GS here. I have always found it very difficult to root for Calvin in the post season. I tend to believe that it doesn't matter if either Hope or Calvin doing well in the NCAA tournament when it comes to a national reputation for the MIAA. I think outside the diehards who know that Albion has been a pretty solid program this decade no one outside Michigan thinks of MIAA basketball as much more than Hope, Calvin, and 6 other teams. If the MIAA collective "we" wants to see the MIAA's reputation improve I think you need to hope some school other than Hope or Calvin develops a record of consistent success, which means winning the MIAA every few years and making the NCAA tourney picture as a Pool C pretty regularly.