MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Mr. Ypsi]

The only time I saw Draayer was a CCIW-MIAA challenge game at Wheaton several years ago (it was the Friday game, but offhand I don't recall if the opponent was Wheaton or Carthage).  He put on perhaps the best long-distance performance I've ever seen live, making 6-7 treys, with a hand in his face every single time.  On at least 3 of them he was literally falling out of bounds as he shot, so hands were on his back during or just after the shot each time just to keep him from fracturing his skull!  (Don't recall if the 'spotter' was ever a coach! )

[ChicagoHopeNut]

HC:  I understand your point.   Perhaps he just nudged Draayer to get a better view of the court?    What in the world was Draayer thinking anyway?  That rules out reflex, and also unintentional or incidental contact.  OK made the point that Calvin might have gotten a break on this play, but it may have been GVW that actually got the break with only getting the T.  

NWH;  If memory is correct we know MVP week of MIAA tournament before the finals.

FWIW:  The past several weeks many posters felt that MM was almost a lock to get MVP because he "has the stats".  He still has the "stats", but a new candidate on a contending team has appeared.  Can someone please explain to me this sudden change of mvp criteria?

I for one never piped in on the subject, but FWIW, stats IMO should play a large part, but so should being a contender. Olivet HAD been that, and maybe still could be, but I doubt we wouldn't be having much of a conversation about a stat leader for an 8th place team... If standings tighten up, I for one would hate to be on that committee!

Olivet may not be a contender for the regular season title but I for one really hope Hope avoids Olivet in the MIAA tourney. Olivet could easily knock off either Hope or Calvin in a semi-final game.

[NW Hope Fan]

HC:  I understand your point.   Perhaps he just nudged Draayer to get a better view of the court?    What in the world was Draayer thinking anyway?  That rules out reflex, and also unintentional or incidental contact.  OK made the point that Calvin might have gotten a break on this play, but it may have been GVW that actually got the break with only getting the T.  

NWH;  If memory is correct we know MVP week of MIAA tournament before the finals.

FWIW:  The past several weeks many posters felt that MM was almost a lock to get MVP because he "has the stats".  He still has the "stats", but a new candidate on a contending team has appeared.  Can someone please explain to me this sudden change of mvp criteria?

I for one never piped in on the subject, but FWIW, stats IMO should play a large part, but so should being a contender. Olivet HAD been that, and maybe still could be, but I doubt we wouldn't be having much of a conversation about a stat leader for an 8th place team... If standings tighten up, I for one would hate to be on that committee!

Olivet may not be a contender for the regular season title but I for one really hope Hope avoids Olivet in the MIAA tourney. Olivet could easily knock off either Hope or Calvin in a semi-final game.

True dat... The point was more about an MVP candidate, but I agree about that match up. As a matter of fact, the tournament could have several upsets.

[GoKnights68]

Installment 2 of Calvin's student newspaper Chimes on the Calvin/Hope rivalry.



http://clubs.calvin.edu/chimes/article.php?id=4537

^A snowball fight?! 

[GoKnights68]

The only time I saw Draayer was a CCIW-MIAA challenge game at Wheaton several years ago (it was the Friday game, but offhand I don't recall if the opponent was Wheaton or Carthage).  He put on perhaps the best long-distance performance I've ever seen live, making 6-7 treys, with a hand in his face every single time.  On at least 3 of them he was literally falling out of bounds as he shot, so hands were on his back during or just after the shot each time just to keep him from fracturing his skull!  (Don't recall if the 'spotter' was ever a coach! )

Wheaton and Calvin had two classic battles that season ('04-'05 season).  One was in the CCIW-MIAA game that you described above in which Wheaton came out top in OT.  I think Draayer was 8 for 12 from 3-point land that game.  The other was in the first round of the NCAA tournament in which Calvin won on a last second tip-in by Dan Aultman.  Calvin went on to finish 3rd in the country.  If Wheaton would have won that game, I really believe they would have had a high chance at going to Salem instead of Calvin, and they were National Championship material in my opinion, although Wisconsin Stevens Point looked pretty unbeatable in Salem.


Anyways, I was in attendance of this Draayer-GVW technical topic.  It was the MIAA tournament championship game, so it was not televised.  I do remember that Hope ended up beating Calvin by a nice comfortable margin, so that controversial call luckily wasn't a huge factor in the outcome of the game.  If anyone was in the dew-crew at the time, they probably had the best view of it. 

[GoKnights68]

HC:  I understand your point.   Perhaps he just nudged Draayer to get a better view of the court?    What in the world was Draayer thinking anyway?   That rules out reflex, and also unintentional or incidental contact.  OK made the point that Calvin might have gotten a break on this play, but it may have been GVW that actually got the break with only getting the T.   

NWH;  If memory is correct we know MVP week of MIAA tournament before the finals.

FWIW:  The past several weeks many posters felt that MM was almost a lock to get MVP because he "has the stats".  He still has the "stats", but a new candidate on a contending team has appeared.  Can someone please explain to me this sudden change of mvp criteria?

I for one never piped in on the subject, but FWIW, stats IMO should play a large part, but so should being a contender. Olivet HAD been that, and maybe still could be, but I doubt we wouldn't be having much of a conversation about a stat leader for an 8th place team... If standings tighten up, I for one would hate to be on that committee!

Olivet may not be a contender for the regular season title but I for one really hope Hope avoids Olivet in the MIAA tourney. Olivet could easily knock off either Hope or Calvin in a semi-final game.

It's going to be interesting because I don't think anyone wants to face a dangerous Olivet team in the tourney, but it could easily end up being the #1 seed that has to in the semi-finals.    Of course I'll take that over having to play in a tough DeVos arena.

[oldknight]

This is what I found doing a search. The first entry is from OK, the second from SAC. I apologize for not being able to get the formatting right. I couldn't call up the page, and had to cut and paste.

[From OK]
A few more thoughts from last night's game--

The T called on Glenn was interesting. As Draayer passed by the Hope bench on his way to setting up the 3 ball he shot and made, Glenn was standing on the floor (just barely) and pointing--presumably to his players. Glenn's hand or finger inadvertantly brushed Draayer as he went by, the shot went in, and the trailing ref never hesitated
in blowing his whistle and pointing to Glenn while making the call. I think Glenn's argument was essentially that he touched Draayer before Draayer ever shot the ball and therefore the T call should nullify the field goal attempt. That's actually a pretty good argument but the ref didn't buy it and it turned into a 5 point play for Calvin.


[From SAC]

First, the Technical. I had no problem with the call. Glenn clearly "touched" Draayer, in an absent-minded and non-aware state that has become more the norm for him the last few years. It wasn't malicious, nor was he even on the court by much (which is one more evidence that Draayer's three-bomb range is so amazing, right Greg Sager?) but it did happen, while the ball was being passed to Draayer, before he took the shot. It was as if Glenn was telling his team to "get him because he's so open." The problem (and the central theme to Glenn's argument) was that Wallace REFUSED to acknowledge it came before the shot. This would've stopped play right away and nullified Draayer's attempt. He was adamant that Glenn touched Draayer after the shot, on his way up the floor. Wallace wouldn't even listen to anything to the contrary, knowing in his own mind he was right. But if that were the case, and it came AFTER the shot, then Calvin should've retained possession on the Tech after the free throws. But they awarded Hope the ball, which inherently signaled that the Tech came before the shot!!!

Nice find by HC. For those interested, the discussion began at page 222 of the MIAA board. For those not interested, I suspect the horse really has been long dead. Here's the full quote from 4 years ago.

It looks like the Calvin loss put a dent in their QoWi.  I still think they are a 'lock' to get in considering that thier only losses came against Hope.  Even if I was a Hope fan and Calvin didn't get in I would be irate.

I suspect that a lot of Hope fans really don't give a rip if Calvin gets in.

A few more thoughts from last night's game--

The T called on Glenn was interesting. As Draayer passed by the Hope bench on his way to setting up the 3 ball he shot and made, Glenn was standing on the floor (just barely) and pointing--presumably to his players. Glenn's hand or finger inadvertantly brushed Draayer as he went by, the shot went in, and the trailing ref never hesitated
in blowing his whistle and pointing to Glenn while making the call. I think Glenn's argument was essentially that he touched Draayer before Draayer ever shot the ball and therefore the T call should nullify the field goal attempt. That's actually a pretty good argument but the ref didn't buy it and it turned into a 5 point play for Calvin.

The intentional foul call on Voison was, I think, a preventative measure on the part of the official. The game was pretty physical and I think the ref made a conscious decision to head off trouble at the pass and send a message to the players. I think that's a good officiating strategy, especially in a game where it was obvious Hope was going to win anyway.

Reimink is a stud. I saw him play last year as a high school senior and was pretty impressed. Like Matt Kingshott of Zeeland West, Reimink is a football player with basketball skills. He'll do well at Hope.

[NW Hope Fan]

Reimink is a stud. I saw him play last year as a high school senior and was pretty impressed. Like Matt Kingshott of Zeeland West, Reimink is a football player with basketball skills. He'll do well at Hope.

Very prophetic OK!

[NW Hope Fan]

Why are we talking about Draayer again?  That was like 50 years ago.

  You've got a lot of back reading to get to the heart of that. It all started with T's and warnings at the Hope/Olivet game... That in itself was now more than 48hrs ago...    And in less time than that we'll have more games to talk about. Hopefully some real juicy stuff to get us to the weekend... 

[NW Hope Fan]

Why are we talking about Draayer again?  That was like 50 years ago.

  You've got a lot of back reading to get to the heart of that. It all started with T's and warnings at the Hope/Olivet game... That in itself was now more than 48hrs ago...    And in less time than that we'll have more games to talk about. Hopefully some real juicy stuff to get us to the weekend...  

If we have to go back to page 222 and this stuff is still going on then GVW should resign, I'm just sayin'

If "stuff", you mean Glen wandering... well that has been going on since long before page 1! I don't believe GVW has made any sort of habit of "contacting" players on the floor before or since page 222... just sayin'

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Reading all this just reminded me of Voison.... I am not sure how to feel about this as I begin my day 

[almcguirejr]

Peter Bunn is MIAA player of the week.

[realist]

Massey:
Hope 41
Calvin 57

[Dark Knight]

Massey:
Hope 41
Calvin 57

Keep in mind that now that the conference season has started, the conference as a whole can't gain or lose compared to the rest of the NCAA. If a conference as a whole is getting stronger compared to other teams, that won't be reflected in the rankings until after the NCAA tournament -- if then.

My suspicion is that with teams like Adrian coming into their own and teams like Hope and Calvin playing much better than they were before the conference season, the conference as a whole is underrated at this point, and Hope and Calvin are probably playing better than the #41 and #57 rankings would indicate.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Massey:
Hope 41
Calvin 57

Keep in mind that now that the conference season has started, the conference as a whole can't gain or lose compared to the rest of the NCAA. If a conference as a whole is getting stronger compared to other teams, that won't be reflected in the rankings until after the NCAA tournament -- if then.

My suspicion is that with teams like Adrian coming into their own and teams like Hope and Calvin playing much better than they were before the conference season, the conference as a whole is underrated at this point, and Hope and Calvin are probably playing better than the #41 and #57 rankings would indicate.

Good point DK.  I think both Hope and Calvin probably sit just outside the top 30 but I would expect to see one of them ranked between 20-25 by the end of the conference tournaments.