MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[section7]

Tiebreaker -

My gut tells me it may not matter after tomorrow night, my money is on one team loses on 2/17, either
Albion over Calvin or Adrian over Hope.

That makes all this discussion mute.  Which by the way, none of us can effect it, no matter what the exact tiebreaker is. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Can you honestly say that regional ranking position is the next best tiebreaker?

Maybe, maybe not.  Regional Ranking is at least based on a teams performance and the strength of their schedule.  The "bad" part about regional ranking is that it is ultimately a human decision.   But I can say it's a 1000% improvement over a coin flip.  At least the tie-breaker is based on how a team has played, not dumb luck.

[ziggy]

Can you honestly say that regional ranking position is the next best tiebreaker?

Maybe, maybe not.  Regional Ranking is at least based on a teams performance and the strength of their schedule.  The "bad" part about regional ranking is that it is ultimately a human decision.   But I can say it's a 1000% improvement over a coin flip.  At least the tie-breaker is based on how a team has played, not dumb luck.

Win all your games and it doesn't have to be a discussion. If there ends up being a tie then that means you have losses; that is the ultimate problem, not the tie-breaking procedure. That is the risk you take when you give up control based on your play.

[KnightSlappy]

Loses by both Calvin and Hope on Wednesday would set up the wacky scenario of Saturday's Adrian/Albion contest deciding the Calvin/Hope tiebreaker. (I'm assuming Calvin and Hope win against Alma and Trine).

Calvin fans would root strongly for the Bulldogs to finish third in the conference, and Hope fans would cheer on the Brits hoping for a tie in the standings.

[almcguirejr]

Win all your games and it doesn't have to be a discussion. If there ends up being a tie then that means you have losses; that is the ultimate problem, not the tie-breaking procedure. That is the risk you take when you give up control based on your play.

I agree with that completely.  Calvin had a 2 game lead and had an opportunity to take control at Hope and didn't.  They had another opportunity at Olivet and didn't. Calvin's 1-2 against Hope this year and can't complain if Hope wins the tie breaker. 

[northb]

How about this for the tiebreaker: KVS vs. GVW in a no-holds-barred, duel to the death, gotta call it, no-whammies, any shot counts game of H-O-R-S-E to be held in the driveway of Bertha and Dirk VandeVander at 2701 Chicago Drive in Hudsonville (geographically equidistant between the two campuses*).  Who goes first decided by a coin flip. 

*Campusi?

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Perhaps they should play a game of D-E-A-D   H-O-R-S-E

[realist]

Ooh! Ooh! Can I be the one to flog ol' Dobbin this time?

[calvin_grad]

Per the discusion about a week ago, here's a "funny" story about playing to the buzzer and how it affected the betting world.

http://backporch.fanhouse.com/2010/02/15/zags-win-by-17-toreros-degenerate-gamblers-lose/

[wiz]

Ooh! Ooh! Can I be the one to flog ol' Dobbin this time?

Too late, I already got him with my door!

[Galahad]

Not only do we have a potential for a tie for first place (which in no way am I implying that this is a foregone conclusion) but likely a 3-way tie for third:

     Olivet will likely win their final two games (Alma and Kalamazoo) ending with a league record 8-6
     Should Albion and Adrian lose on Wednesday and Albion defeat Adrian at home on Saturday, they also will finish with an 8-6 record.

The MIAA scheduler should be hoping for some upsets by the end of the week or something more that coins will be flipping!

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Why not instead look at all common opponents? Let's count Aquinas, Wheaton, Trinity, and Carthage, or Cornerstone, Spring Arbor, Davenport, and Grace in years they play both teams.

Although I agree that Regional Ranking may not be ideal one issue with common non-conference opponents is the fact many of those listed above are not NCAA D3 schools. I realize it is a matter of additional debate but I can certainly see someone making the point that records against NIAA schools should not play into tie-breakers that will affect NCAA tournaments. 

[Gregory Sager]

The thing I don't like about the regional rankings (other than the fact that Calvin is behind!) is that regional games differ from team to team. Hope and Calvin both played Wheaton, but they both aren't taken into account in the regional rankings. (I know this is to Calvin's advantage this year, but other years it may not be.)

I would prefer:
1. Conference home record
2. Out-of-conference head to head record
3. Total record vs. out-of-conference common opponents
4. Coin flip
5. Regional ranking

The CCIW has more layers of in-house tiebreakers than does the MIAA. After head-to-head and moving down the ladder (respective records vs. 1st-place team, then vs. 2nd-place team, then vs. 3rd-place team, etc.), respective road records in conference play becomes the next tiebreaker. If that doesn't resolve the deadlock (it would, in Hope's favor, if the MIAA used it, since the Dutch beat Olivet on the road and Calvin beat Olivet in VanNoord), the respective records of the two teams over the last nine games comes next (Hope would win that tiebreaker, too, 9-0 to 7-2, if the regular season were to end today). Next comes head-to-head point differential (Calvin would win that one by six points), and, finally, coin toss.

I don't think that the CCIW has ever gotten down as far as the road-record tiebreaker ... but, then again, the CCIW has been fairly tie-free over the years in terms of the league championship, and the CCIW's conference tournament is a relatively recent addition.

[KnightSlappy]

Why not instead look at all common opponents? Let's count Aquinas, Wheaton, Trinity, and Carthage, or Cornerstone, Spring Arbor, Davenport, and Grace in years they play both teams.

Although I agree that Regional Ranking may not be ideal one issue with common non-conference opponents is the fact many of those listed above are not NCAA D3 schools. I realize it is a matter of additional debate but I can certainly see someone making the point that records against NIAA schools should not play into tie-breakers that will affect NCAA tournaments. 

But they can come into affect in some of the NCAA's secondary criteria, so a tiebreaker this far down the list including local NAIA schools shouldn't raise any red flags.

[KnightSlappy]

The CCIW has more layers of in-house tiebreakers than does the MIAA. After head-to-head and moving down the ladder (respective records vs. 1st-place team, then vs. 2nd-place team, then vs. 3rd-place team, etc.), respective road records in conference play becomes the next tiebreaker. If that doesn't resolve the deadlock (it would, in Hope's favor, if the MIAA used it, since the Dutch beat Olivet on the road and Calvin beat Olivet in VanNoord), the respective records of the two teams over the last nine games comes next (Hope would win that tiebreaker, too, 9-0 to 7-2, if the regular season were to end today). Next comes head-to-head point differential (Calvin would win that one by six points), and, finally, coin toss.

I don't think that the CCIW has ever gotten down as far as the road-record tiebreaker ... but, then again, the CCIW has been fairly tie-free over the years in terms of the league championship, and the CCIW's conference tournament is a relatively recent addition.

I don't mean to start a meaningless discussion (who am I kidding ), but I find this to be counterintuitive. Wouldn't one expect that, in a strong league, road loses are inevitable and very good teams will lose on the road to league average or below teams (BigTen?).

It's expected for good teams to win their home games, so a sign of a truly solid team would be an exceptional home record. (Rarely or never failing to meet expectations).

You could make the argument that more road wins equals better strength (more wins in a hostile environment), but that always comes at the cost of failing to protect the home court.