MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Titan Q]

It takes some pretty big onions to interrupt MIAA condiment discussion.

That's not lost on me...I do apologize.

[KnightSlappy]

For preseason Top 25 poll voting purposes, I'm wondering which MIAA power will be favored to win the 2010-11 race - Hope or Calvin?  What are your expectations for each at the national level?  (Will either, or both, have the type of team that could make a deep run in the NCAA tournament?)  Any other MIAA team expected to challenge the big two?

I've been trying to generate some Top 25 discussion here...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4097.5640


Your help in sorting out the MIAA pecking order is appreciated!   

You could have at least tried to work in sauerkraut or coney sauce or something...

I think Calvin is the best team in the MIAA, but I always think Calvin is the best team in D3, so that may not help you too much.

Honestly though, I'd say Hope is worthy of a preseason 20's ranking, but I wouldn't rank Calvin. Maybe they end up with an ORV or something. Both should be "good enough" to make the Sweet 16, but Calvin does have two big holes to fill in their starting lineup. Hope has a nice set of seniors returning, and should be set up to take a nice step forward.

Calvin returns 3 starters, and 6 of their top 9.
Hope returns 4 starters, and returns 8* of their top 10.

Olivet, Albion, and Adrian should have nice squads, but I can't picture any of them winning the league.

*there are rumors of an academic eligiblility issue with an un-named bench player.

[EDIT] I should also note that Calvin has 3 or 4 freshmen coming in that I'm pretty excited to see.

[sac]

[GoKnights68]

For preseason Top 25 poll voting purposes, I'm wondering which MIAA power will be favored to win the 2010-11 race - Hope or Calvin?  What are your expectations for each at the national level?  (Will either, or both, have the type of team that could make a deep run in the NCAA tournament?)  Any other MIAA team expected to challenge the big two?

I've been trying to generate some Top 25 discussion here...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=4097.5640


Your help in sorting out the MIAA pecking order is appreciated!   

I wouldn't rank Calvin.  Hope, perhaps.

To sum up my Calvin thoughts in quick words, I think Calvin's starting line-up is going to be very solid but I am very wary of their bench.  Hopefully the new players can adjust well, quickly.  It will be real interesting to see how well Snikkers has developed his game from last season to this season.  He sure is talented but definitely has some areas to improve in.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

I think you have to rank Hope ahead of Calvin coming in.  Pretty evenly matched in 09-10, but Hope ended up going farther in the post-season. Just comparing the graduating seniors, Hope loses Nelis/Jungling and Calvin loses Mantel/Veltema/Campbell.  That is no comparison.  It seems as if Calvin may have a stronger incoming freshman class but the jury is still out on that one.  I think the real wild card is how you affect preseason expectations, for better or for worse, due to the coaching change at Hope.  Again, jury is out on that as well. 

All that to say, one has to make preseason rankings based on how teams look on paper and Hope looks much better and deeper on paper at this point.  If I was a betting man, I would bet on Calvin to win the league though just because I think the loss of a legendary coach and associated growing pains with the transition are a pretty big factor. 

I think the MIAA may see some challenges from some of the other schools--Olivet and Adrian come to mind primarily--but certainly I wouldn't consider them for any preseason rankings until they prove themselves consistently.

[sac]

Not sure what Hope has done to merit a pre-season ranking.  The returning team is the current MIAA Runner-up, MIAA Tournament Champion, and suffored a first round loss to St. Norbert in NCAA Tournament (in which Hope was the higher seed).

They do return most of their team, but its most of a team that did the above......is that top 25 worthy?

Its going to take some games and wins to convince me anyone from the MIAA is a top 25 team.  The last couple years has been a slight down period for the top of the conference, and a deep cavernous hole overall for the MIAA for a few years now. 

[KnightSlappy]

I think Hope and Calvin should pretty much always be "on the radar" for pre-season rankings. Just having one of those names gets you on the discusssion table.

Calvin: (+) won the league last year
Hope: (+) won the league tournament last year, (+) returns 4 starters and only loses one bench player, (+) Been to NCAA tournament five years in a row, (+) attendance banners, (+) Lots of upperclassmen, (-) But they can't win it all

[realist]

Like Sac, I just don't see the justification for either Hope or Calvin getting any preseason recognition.  However, it wouldn't surprise me to see Hope's name on the list towards the bottom simply because of historic performance, and the fact most other schools have as many question marks as Hope does.
My X factor for this year is the fact the Hope players were involved in the coach selection process, and they will want to produce to justify thier support for Neil.  Though the circumstances are different the feeling one gets from the Hope players is very similar to the one the 00 Calvin guys had.  They are hungry, and they want some greater success.

[Dark Knight]

Hope: (+) won the league tournament last year, (+) returns 4 starters and only loses one bench player, (+) Been to NCAA tournament five years in a row, (+) attendance banners, (+) Lots of upperclassmen, (-) But they can't win it all

... and (?) new coach.

[KnightSlappy]

Hope: (+) won the league tournament last year, (+) returns 4 starters and only loses one bench player, (+) Been to NCAA tournament five years in a row, (+) attendance banners, (+) Lots of upperclassmen, (-) But they can't win it all

... and (?) new coach.

We obviously don't know what will happen with a new coach, but the team is full of upperclassmen, and he's from the system. I expect things to be "business as usual." Will he be able to maintain the program like GVW did? I don't know, but probably.

[oldknight]

I can't disagree much with what seems to be the consensus about Calvin and Hope. Both have things to prove before being considered a top 25 team. The Knights seem to have gotten more athletic in their last two recruiting classes but it's difficult to be a conference champion if you are overly dependent on perimeter play. The Drake Bulldogs did it a couple of years ago in the Missouri Valley but that's the exception, not the rule. I can't install Calvin as the conference favorite until I see some positive answers to questions about who will be the new on-court leaders to replace their two all-conference selections from last year. 

Failing to accurately place Calvin as conference favorite is not anything new. The last two years Calvin seems to have met or exceeded expectations for the conference season--by winning regular season crowns--only to be left out of the NCAA's by losing the conference tournament. Calvin's last two conference championships have largely come on the strength of superior rebounding (maybe KVS is right when he says rebounding margin is the most important statistic in basketball ).

I do think some may be seriously underrating Olivet as a possible conference favorite. The Comets return three players who made first or second team All-Conference, including the league's MVP--the most dominant big man in the MIAA. Hope returns only one All-Conference selection and Calvin returns none. The only concern Olivet has is the quality and depth of their supporting cast. If they get acceptable contributions from players 4-8 on their roster, they will be mighty tough to beat. 

[Knight2Day]

Hope: (+) won the league tournament last year, (+) returns 4 starters and only loses one bench player, (+) Been to NCAA tournament five years in a row, (+) attendance banners, (+) Lots of upperclassmen, (-) But they can't win it all

... and (?) new coach.

We obviously don't know what will happen with a new coach, but the team is full of upperclassmen, and he's from the system. I expect things to be "business as usual." Will he be able to maintain the program like GVW did? I don't know, but probably.

I have to say, attendance banners most likely aren't going to help you win the NC. I still think that Hope is two thin up front and to thin in the bench to make a deep run in the tourny. Bowser, Bunn, and Krombeen are good enough to make that run, the rest of the team is not up to snuff. And I realize that everyone at Hope is high on the Holwerda kid, but from
all the summer league I watched, still was not very impressed.

In the case of Calvin, I would like to see them run the 2-3 zone especially with the amount of length they are going to possess in their lineup and the lack of bulk. I definitely do not count the Knights out for this season but I think their lineup and focus on youth is more geared toward an extended run over the next few years.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

The last two years Calvin seems to have met or exceeded expectations for the conference season--by winning regular season crowns--only to be left out of the NCAA's by losing the conference tournament.

I would say Calvin lost out on the automatic bid by losing the MIAA tourney, but were ultimately left out of the NCAA's because of horrible games at Kalamazoo in '09 and at Olivet in '10.  Win those two games and we'd have had two at-large bids.

[oldknight]

The last two years Calvin seems to have met or exceeded expectations for the conference season--by winning regular season crowns--only to be left out of the NCAA's by losing the conference tournament.

I would say Calvin lost out on the automatic bid by losing the MIAA tourney, but were ultimately left out of the NCAA's because of horrible games at Kalamazoo in '09 and at Olivet in '10.  Win those two games and we'd have had two at-large bids.

Actually it was the loss to Wheaton at Hope last December that hurt the most. If Calvin could have followed up on their win over Carthage the night before by completing a sweep of the CCIW, the Knights would have finished the regular season with 20 wins and I suspect that they, not the Thunder, would have been in Texas for the NCAA's this past March.

[KnightSlappy]

The last two years Calvin seems to have met or exceeded expectations for the conference season--by winning regular season crowns--only to be left out of the NCAA's by losing the conference tournament.

I would say Calvin lost out on the automatic bid by losing the MIAA tourney, but were ultimately left out of the NCAA's because of horrible games at Kalamazoo in '09 and at Olivet in '10.  Win those two games and we'd have had two at-large bids.

Actually it was the loss to Wheaton at Hope last December that hurt the most. If Calvin could have followed up on their win over Carthage the night before by completing a sweep of the CCIW, the Knights would have finished the regular season with 20 wins and I suspect that they, not the Thunder, would have been in Texas for the NCAA's this past March.

I tend to agree more with HCG, but I think you're both right. A win in the Olivet game or either of the two non-MIAA-tourney Hope games would have given them an at-large bid. Lead pipe lock. A head to head win over Wheaton may have gotten them in as well, but there may have been another team or two that could have won that secondary criteria coin flip.

The win vs. Olivet or Hope would have also likely kept the Knights from having to go to Texas.

Actually, looking at last year's data, Hope would have very much liked the Knights to beat the Comets as well. Hope probably would have ended up as the region's #1 team, and could very well have hosted the first two rounds (so we all know which pod the very uncreative selection committee would have put Calvin in).