MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Dark Knight]

Also (and I'm surprised Pat hasn't mentioned this) this might be a great discussion to share in the football forum. Lots of poster over there who may not be trolling the basketball room in early October.

Yeah, but the conversation in that forum is boring. All they talk about is...football.

[Dark Knight]

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

[SKOT]

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

Field turf is a always a solution for keeping your football team from tearing up your soccer field (even if it is an abomination of the game of soccer!) And, it pays for its self in 5-10 years!

[Gregory Sager]

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

Field turf is a always a solution for keeping your football team from tearing up your soccer field (even if it is an abomination of the game of soccer!) And, it pays for its self in 5-10 years!

Dark Knight, you may be operating under a misapprehension. Lots of D3 schools have one field that is shared by the football and soccer teams every fall. In the CCIW, five of the eight schools have one field that serves the football team, the men's soccer team, and the women' s soccer team (although Elmhurst plays some of its soccer matches at a nearby public park). In the OAC, five of the ten schools have fields that are shared by the football team and the two soccer teams.

As SKOT said, FieldTurf (or its various corporate competitors) has made it possible to run multiple sports on one surface, even in the same season, without ruining the surface.

[HopeConvert]

I don't know Calvin's cost structure, but I know enough about accounting to know that some costs are tied to the actual student being there, and some are there whether you have an additional student or not.  One can't  assume if you add 30 or 40 or more more students each year that all the revenue they generate is going to be available to cover the costs associated with adding football.  
I can see Calvin adding football if it operates at break even or better, or if the proponents come up with enough deep pockets to assure the college they will pick up any short fall.
If adding football makes the college increase the charges all students face seems very counter productive.  For every student you might add because you now have football you face the prospect of reaching the point another potential student goes elsewhere based on the new costs.  

As GS mentioned, there had better be more than 30-40 students added if football becomes a varsity sport. Wheaton has 100 kids on their roster. And it's not just the additional football players who add to tuition revenue. I've been told it is comonly believed that for every athlete added to your school, there is a multiplier effect on enrollment of 1.5. If that assessment is accurate, 150 tuition paying students become a part of the equation when considering whether it is worth adding the sport to your school.  

I would be very, very surprised if it were to have that effect at Calvin. But it wouldn't surprise me if, on the whole, a football program would be cost neutral.

[sflzman]

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

Field turf is a always a solution for keeping your football team from tearing up your soccer field (even if it is an abomination of the game of soccer!) And, it pays for its self in 5-10 years!

Dark Knight, you may be operating under a misapprehension. Lots of D3 schools have one field that is shared by the football and soccer teams every fall. In the CCIW, five of the eight schools have one field that serves the football team, the men's soccer team, and the women' s soccer team (although Elmhurst plays some of its soccer matches at a nearby public park). In the OAC, five of the ten schools have fields that are shared by the football team and the two soccer teams.

As SKOT said, FieldTurf (or its various corporate competitors) has made it possible to run multiple sports on one surface, even in the same season, without ruining the surface.

Currently Adrian runs Football, M/W Soccer, and M/W Lacrosse in their stadium...Alma also has plans in for new turf next season that would accomidate Football and soccer...

[OC_SID]

Olivet has an artificial surface, but only football games, some intramurals and women's lacrosse games this spring are played on it. We have a separate natural grass field for soccer. Our grounds department does a great job on the field. Personally, I think soccer should be played on a grass field. Having two separate fields can make for busy Saturdays like this week since both soccers are home and football is home for Homecoming.

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

Field turf is a always a solution for keeping your football team from tearing up your soccer field (even if it is an abomination of the game of soccer!) And, it pays for its self in 5-10 years!

Dark Knight, you may be operating under a misapprehension. Lots of D3 schools have one field that is shared by the football and soccer teams every fall. In the CCIW, five of the eight schools have one field that serves the football team, the men's soccer team, and the women' s soccer team (although Elmhurst plays some of its soccer matches at a nearby public park). In the OAC, five of the ten schools have fields that are shared by the football team and the two soccer teams.

As SKOT said, FieldTurf (or its various corporate competitors) has made it possible to run multiple sports on one surface, even in the same season, without ruining the surface.

Currently Adrian runs Football, M/W Soccer, and M/W Lacrosse in their stadium...Alma also has plans in for new turf next season that would accomidate Football and soccer...

[Mr. Ypsi]

Olivet has an artificial surface, but only football games, some intramurals and women's lacrosse games this spring are played on it. We have a separate natural grass field for soccer. Our grounds department does a great job on the field. Personally, I think soccer should be played on a grass field. Having two separate fields can make for busy Saturdays like this week since both soccers are home and football is home for Homecoming.

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

Field turf is a always a solution for keeping your football team from tearing up your soccer field (even if it is an abomination of the game of soccer!) And, it pays for its self in 5-10 years!

Dark Knight, you may be operating under a misapprehension. Lots of D3 schools have one field that is shared by the football and soccer teams every fall. In the CCIW, five of the eight schools have one field that serves the football team, the men's soccer team, and the women' s soccer team (although Elmhurst plays some of its soccer matches at a nearby public park). In the OAC, five of the ten schools have fields that are shared by the football team and the two soccer teams.

As SKOT said, FieldTurf (or its various corporate competitors) has made it possible to run multiple sports on one surface, even in the same season, without ruining the surface.

Currently Adrian runs Football, M/W Soccer, and M/W Lacrosse in their stadium...Alma also has plans in for new turf next season that would accomidate Football and soccer...

Agreed.

I love indoor soccer, but it is virtually a different sport than outdoor soccer.  Outdoor soccer on artificial turf makes me want to play balls off the walls!

[David Collinge]

Wooster has a separate field for M/W soccer, so the football field is reserved for the use of football, lacrosse, and ...cricket.

[Gregory Sager]

Olivet has an artificial surface, but only football games, some intramurals and women's lacrosse games this spring are played on it. We have a separate natural grass field for soccer. Our grounds department does a great job on the field. Personally, I think soccer should be played on a grass field. Having two separate fields can make for busy Saturdays like this week since both soccers are home and football is home for Homecoming.

For the short term, to keep the games on campus; what about goal posts and hash marks in the infield of the track like a lot of other facilities? Are there any stands there now? Could other stands be built or brought in? Just a thought...

That's the soccer field. First things first.

Field turf is a always a solution for keeping your football team from tearing up your soccer field (even if it is an abomination of the game of soccer!) And, it pays for its self in 5-10 years!

Dark Knight, you may be operating under a misapprehension. Lots of D3 schools have one field that is shared by the football and soccer teams every fall. In the CCIW, five of the eight schools have one field that serves the football team, the men's soccer team, and the women' s soccer team (although Elmhurst plays some of its soccer matches at a nearby public park). In the OAC, five of the ten schools have fields that are shared by the football team and the two soccer teams.

As SKOT said, FieldTurf (or its various corporate competitors) has made it possible to run multiple sports on one surface, even in the same season, without ruining the surface.

Currently Adrian runs Football, M/W Soccer, and M/W Lacrosse in their stadium...Alma also has plans in for new turf next season that would accomidate Football and soccer...

Yes, having one playing field for fall outdoor sports can simplify things in terms of pregame prep work. NPU had its Homecoming last weekend, with a men's soccer match on Friday evening, a football game at two in the afternoon on Saturday, and a women's soccer match at seven later that evening -- and I'm sure that the only substantial field task involved was replacing the soccer goals with the football goalposts, and vice-versa.

North Park's soccer teams used to play their matches in River Park, the soccer/track facility across the river from the Holmgren Athletic Complex where they now play. However, since River Park is public land owned by the Chicago Park District, it gets constant use both by local soccer leagues and by all of the many soccer-crazed immigrant groups that live in the heavily-populated Albany Park neighborhood south of NPU. The FieldTurf in River Park, which is now fourteen or fifteen years old, is therefore worn down to nothing. The NPU soccer teams still practice there, since the football team gets to practice at Holmgren, but under no circumstances would either soccer head coach want to host a match in River Park anymore. The surface is so far gone it would be embarrassing to have to use it for college competition.

I don't see anything wrong at all with playing soccer on an artificial surface, provided that it's in good condition. In fact, I've heard lots of players complain about having to play on grass fields that are not perfectly graded and/or maintained; one CCIW school's grass field is notorious among the league's soccer players for its uneven surface that not only produces crazy bounces on occasion but is also a sprained ankle waiting to happen.

Not every school has access to an unlimited supply of open land that would allow it to construct separate playing fields for each outdoor sport. FieldTurf and its equivalents allow many small colleges to make do nicely with their limited amount of open land.

[realist]

I don't know Calvin's cost structure, but I know enough about accounting to know that some costs are tied to the actual student being there, and some are there whether you have an additional student or not.  One can't  assume if you add 30 or 40 or more more students each year that all the revenue they generate is going to be available to cover the costs associated with adding football.  
I can see Calvin adding football if it operates at break even or better, or if the proponents come up with enough deep pockets to assure the college they will pick up any short fall.
If adding football makes the college increase the charges all students face seems very counter productive.  For every student you might add because you now have football you face the prospect of reaching the point another potential student goes elsewhere based on the new costs.  

As GS mentioned, there had better be more than 30-40 students added if football becomes a varsity sport. Wheaton has 100 kids on their roster. And it's not just the additional football players who add to tuition revenue. I've been told it is comonly believed that for every athlete added to your school, there is a multiplier effect on enrollment of 1.5. If that assessment is accurate, 150 tuition paying students become a part of the equation when considering whether it is worth adding the sport to your school.  

I would be very, very surprised if it were to have that effect at Calvin. But it wouldn't surprise me if, on the whole, a football program would be cost neutral.

My original quote assumed Calvin would add 30 to 40 football type students a year, thereby making a pool of players 100+ over a period of years. 

However, I just don"'t see football at Calvin starting at a cost neutral basis.  Frankly I wonder how many D3 schools have "cost neutral" football programs?  Do Hope's, Trine" et. al.  football programs perform above break even or are they subsidized?  In today's economy (and all the time with us Dutch types) if adding football is going to increase our tuition and fees we aren't going to be overly excited to welcome football. 

[northb]

A confounding factor would be that Dougie-fresh would have to decide if he still wanted to be the voice of Hope football, or if he would switch to his true love and announce games at Calvin.  WWDWD?

[ziggy]

WWDWD?

I'm not quite sure but I'm guessing Hudsonville ice cream is involved. I have never heard a broadcaster more passionate about an advertisement.

[Gregory Sager]

My original quote assumed Calvin would add 30 to 40 football type students a year, thereby making a pool of players 100+ over a period of years. 

However, I just don"'t see football at Calvin starting at a cost neutral basis.

That's why I pointed out before that you wouldn't start a football program with only the thirty to forty newbie players that you'd bring in in a normal year. You'd spend a year or two promoting the school's incipient addition of football, and then you'd start your inaugural season with, in all likelihood, anywhere from 70-to-110 players. In other words, you'd probably double the size of a normal incoming football class, or more, that first season. And that would significantly affect whether the program starts off on a cost-neutral basis or not.

Frankly I wonder how many D3 schools have "cost neutral" football programs?  Do Hope's, Trine" et. al.  football programs perform above break even or are they subsidized?  In today's economy (and all the time with us Dutch types) if adding football is going to increase our tuition and fees we aren't going to be overly excited to welcome football.

Dunno, but they're interesting questions. I, too, would love to see the answers.

[northb]

WWDWD?

I'm not quite sure but I'm guessing Hudsonville ice cream is involved. I have never heard a broadcaster more passionate about an advertisement.

It shows!