MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[Hopester]

Prompted by some in-person feedback I looked at Hope's stats for the year.  I excluded Hope players not averaging 10 minutes per game.

37% shooting from the floor
26% shooting from 3
62% shooting from the FT line
3rd worst Pts/FG attempt
5th worst Reb/Min
2nd best TO/min

3rd HIGHEST MIN PER GAME!!

How in the world is Grant Neil playing 25.8 minutes per game? Is he some sort of defensive wizard?

I am surprised his numbers are that good... Its a shame really that he is getting this many minutes. This team could actually be pretty decent.

[scottiedawg]

McMahon subbing for Neil is not a like for like sub, McMahon almost always plays the two.  Byers almost always plays the 4........Hope is a little thin at the 3 spot.

I assumed as much since I haven't seen them play.  Thanks for confirming :-(

[Gregory Sager]

Just for clarification, does the first set of stats belong to Neil (I assume so) and not the team averages for Hope?

*I don't like coaches coaching their own kids. Half the time the coach treats his/her kids too favorably and the other half of the time he/she treats his kid too unfavorably. I've seen it both ways, and it's never pretty. Heck, as paradoxical as this may sound, half the time half of the spectators will think the coach is being too nice and the other half of the spectators think he's being too mean. 'Spectators' and 'nice' and 'mean' etc. are all 'general' terms. There are probably better words to use here. Playing time is ALWAYS tricky and problematic even without the bias of family factoring in.

Playing time is not always tricky and problematic, even in the case of the son of the head coach being on the team. Some coaches' kids are so good that the whole thing is a moot point. Steve Djurickovic of Carthage (2,547 points, #1 in Carthage history), Scott Gillespie of Ripon (1,871 points, #1 in Ripon history), and Derek Raridon of North Central (1,690 points, #2 in NCC history) all come to mind as examples from the last four years. Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant.

[sac]

Prompted by some in-person feedback I looked at Hope's stats for the year.  I excluded Hope players not averaging 10 minutes per game.

37% shooting from the floor
26% shooting from 3
62% shooting from the FT line
3rd worst Pts/FG attempt
5th worst Reb/Min
2nd best TO/min

3rd HIGHEST MIN PER GAME!!

How in the world is Grant Neil playing 25.8 minutes per game? Is he some sort of defensive wizard?

I am surprised his numbers are that good... Its a shame really that he is getting this many minutes. This team could actually be pretty decent.

who would you play in his place?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Just for clarification, does the first set of stats belong to Neil (I assume so) and not the team averages for Hope?

*I don't like coaches coaching their own kids. Half the time the coach treats his/her kids too favorably and the other half of the time he/she treats his kid too unfavorably. I've seen it both ways, and it's never pretty. Heck, as paradoxical as this may sound, half the time half of the spectators will think the coach is being too nice and the other half of the spectators think he's being too mean. 'Spectators' and 'nice' and 'mean' etc. are all 'general' terms. There are probably better words to use here. Playing time is ALWAYS tricky and problematic even without the bias of family factoring in.

Playing time is not always tricky and problematic, even in the case of the son of the head coach being on the team. Some coaches' kids are so good that the whole thing is a moot point. Steve Djurickovic of Carthage (2,547 points, #1 in Carthage history), Scott Gillespie of Ripon (1,871 points, #1 in Ripon history), and Derek Raridon of North Central (1,690 points, #2 in NCC history) all come to mind as examples from the last four years. Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant.

True, but not not address the issue here.  (He is obviously not a superstar, like Steve or Derek.)  I have not viewed Hope enough this season to weigh in on the discussion of playing time.  His stats don't look good, but don't really know the alternatives.

[hoopdreams]

In response to " who would you play in his place?" Everyone is talking about a program that in recent memory, literally picked a kid up off the street in mid season ( not really homeless, just a student), even though they have a JV program in place.  You could also assume that one or two "3" men decided against coming to Holland once it became obvious that minutes were going to be given to someone who, in their eyes ( as well as parents and coaches) may not necessarily deserve them.

[Hopester]

Prompted by some in-person feedback I looked at Hope's stats for the year.  I excluded Hope players not averaging 10 minutes per game.

37% shooting from the floor
26% shooting from 3
62% shooting from the FT line
3rd worst Pts/FG attempt
5th worst Reb/Min
2nd best TO/min

3rd HIGHEST MIN PER GAME!!

How in the world is Grant Neil playing 25.8 minutes per game? Is he some sort of defensive wizard?

I am surprised his numbers are that good... Its a shame really that he is getting this many minutes. This team could actually be pretty decent.

who would you play in his place?

I am a believer that the best players play, regardless of position. You figure out how to make it work. This is how my lineup would look.

Gardner
McMahon
Stuive
Benson
VanArendonk

Eidson
Carlson
Otto
Blackledge

I would be more inclined to run a three guard offense when we go to the bench than play someone who doesn't help the team win. Its not a shock that the best this team has looked all year was when he picked up his third foul and had to sit for a good portion of the second half against Calvin.

[oldknight]

Prompted by some in-person feedback I looked at Hope's stats for the year.  I excluded Hope players not averaging 10 minutes per game.

37% shooting from the floor
26% shooting from 3
62% shooting from the FT line
3rd worst Pts/FG attempt
5th worst Reb/Min
2nd best TO/min

3rd HIGHEST MIN PER GAME!!

How in the world is Grant Neil playing 25.8 minutes per game? Is he some sort of defensive wizard?

I am surprised his numbers are that good... Its a shame really that he is getting this many minutes. This team could actually be pretty decent.

who would you play in his place?

Steve Wittenbach

[hoopdreams]

I never did hear the official reason for Wittenbach leaving the program....ouch, that one stings a tad OK

[Gregory Sager]

Just for clarification, does the first set of stats belong to Neil (I assume so) and not the team averages for Hope?

*I don't like coaches coaching their own kids. Half the time the coach treats his/her kids too favorably and the other half of the time he/she treats his kid too unfavorably. I've seen it both ways, and it's never pretty. Heck, as paradoxical as this may sound, half the time half of the spectators will think the coach is being too nice and the other half of the spectators think he's being too mean. 'Spectators' and 'nice' and 'mean' etc. are all 'general' terms. There are probably better words to use here. Playing time is ALWAYS tricky and problematic even without the bias of family factoring in.

Playing time is not always tricky and problematic, even in the case of the son of the head coach being on the team. Some coaches' kids are so good that the whole thing is a moot point. Steve Djurickovic of Carthage (2,547 points, #1 in Carthage history), Scott Gillespie of Ripon (1,871 points, #1 in Ripon history), and Derek Raridon of North Central (1,690 points, #2 in NCC history) all come to mind as examples from the last four years. Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant.

True, but not not address the issue here.  (He is obviously not a superstar, like Steve or Derek.)

Ah, but it does, Chuck. The statement by calvinite was not specifically aimed at Grant Neil. He made a blanket statement about coaches and their kids that was clearly generic in terms of its application. My reply doesn't address the Grant Neil issue, true, but that's not the issue I was aiming at in my response. In essence, calvinite started a second thread that emerged out of the original one about the Hope coach's son.

[Roundball999]

I never did hear the official reason for Wittenbach leaving the program....ouch, that one stings a tad OK

I'm not sure there is an "official" reason but I heard from reasonably reliable sources he made a difficult and admirable choice to support a family member in need.

[hoopdreams]

I was not aware of the difficult situation the Wittenbach family is/ has been dealing with.  My prayers go out to his family.

[calvinite]

Playing time is not always tricky and problematic, even in the case of the son of the head coach being on the team. Some coaches' kids are so good that the whole thing is a moot point. Steve Djurickovic of Carthage (2,547 points, #1 in Carthage history), Scott Gillespie of Ripon (1,871 points, #1 in Ripon history), and Derek Raridon of North Central (1,690 points, #2 in NCC history) all come to mind as examples from the last four years. Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant.

The issues with parent coaches goes well beyond playing time – playing time just seems to be the most volatile issues. I didn't say always – and should not have said 'always' if I did, but I stand by my point that there is USUALLY a PERCEPTION by SOME of a problem with a PARENT COACH  at SOME POINT being too hard OR giving breaks to their own child.
Your comment that "Their dads didn't worry about how much they played them or how they treated them. Those guys were superstars, and such issues were completely irrelevant" just supports my argument. If you're the kid at the end of the bench just hoping to get 2 minutes of playing time at the end of a blow-out game and the coach appears not to care how much playing time he's giving to his kid – even if he's a super star – then there is a perception of a problem by some folks. In the case of super star players, however, I think it's MORE likely to be the opposite: the kid is pushed too hard (as perceived by some). It's not a scientific evaluation – it's the perception I worry about. Here's a quote by Steve Djurickovic after his freshmen year playing for his father at Carthage: ""This year was the first year I realized that he [dad] comes down on me just because he has to so it doesn't look like he's taking it easy on his son. And he wants to get the best out of me." This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about as explained by the son. While looking this up, I also found an article about Steve scoring 28 points (playing well) but having ZERO assists. Not playing time, but related issues.
Bringing some of these posts together (*NOTE: I don't even know if Steve Witthenbach played the same position as Grant Neil or which player got more playing time last year or where Wittenbach is now or ANYTHING ELSE about the situation)  I wonder if playing the same position as the coaches son wasn't just ONE factor in Wittenback's not playing for Hope this year? Another poster mentioned a family member being an issue, and I can personally testify that I took one year off of college athletics for this very reason, so I would certainly accept that as a plausible reason.
The article I quoted from above noted that Bosco Djurickovic's other kids never wanted to have him as a coach, but Steve always did. I'm glad the relationship worked out at Carthage – which it clearly did, but the fact that it worked out so well doesn't mean that there still weren't some perception of biases involved with the father/coach – player/son relationship.

--sorry this is so long...

[HopeConvert]

Here's a simple test with all the inherent limitations of a counterfactual: would Djurickovic have received the same number of minutes had his dad not been coach? Almost certainly. Would Grant Neil?

[calvinite]

I think most coaches would give Steve Djurickovic at least as many minutes as his father gave him (based on all the articles I just read about his ability). I'm not commenting on the Neil situation and now wish I hadn't contributed to it in the first place. I do wonder if non-parent coaches of Steve Djurickovic wouldn't have given him MORE minutes....