MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[kzoo99]

kzoo lost 72-53. Shooting woes hurt them.  They competed well but shot 34 percent vs 47 for chicago.  Missing a few players (ghafari and whitney) that play significant minutes. 

Is this the large print version for the vision impaired?

sorry, cell phones can be deceiving

[wiz]

kzoo lost 72-53. Shooting woes hurt them.  They competed well but shot 34 percent vs 47 for chicago.  Missing a few players (ghafari and whitney) that play significant minutes. 

Is this the large print version for the vision impaired?

sorry, cell phones can be deceiving

No need to apologize.

[northb]

kzoo lost 72-53. Shooting woes hurt them.  They competed well but shot 34 percent vs 47 for chicago.  Missing a few players (ghafari and whitney) that play significant minutes. 

Is this the large print version for the vision impaired?

sorry, cell phones can be deceiving

No need to apologize.

Stop shouting!  You're giving me a headache.

[knightvision]

Indiana Wesleyan 73  Olivet 53

Wesleyan is a very good basketball team.  Hard working, make the extra passes, really fun team to watch.  It was pretty clear early on the Wildcats weren't all in the game.  They probably thought their trip to Olivet would be easy but the Comets competed hard, stayed in a zone that was decent at times and made life more difficult for IWU than they wanted.  Once they began unlocking the zone though there wasn't much stopping them.  After Olivet's early 10-3 burst to take the lead it was all IWU even with a slimish 6 point halftime lead, it just didn't feel like Olivet was going to stay close for much longer.

Sure enough the Wildcats blew the game open to start the second half.  I happen to be standing at the door as they entered the gym for the second half and made a team circle and gave each other strong words of encouragement.  It might as well have been over then.   Stronger defense, some transition buckets and completely obliterating Olivet's zone with the extra pass down low led to a 15-0 run to start the half and it could have been so much worse.  The Wildcats made just 1 of 6 3-point shots during this run.  On the season they're a 46% team from 3 but struggled today even against that zone and getting a lot of wide open shots.  They made just 5 of 24 on this day.

Interesting finish to the game:   IWU only plays 3 guards, a fourth is listed as guard but plays the 3/4 spot the whole game.  With the score in hand IWU trotted out a lineup of 6-2, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6 and 6-9  with no point guard and no real ball-handler.  They played like that for 5 minutes and even subbed a couple of other 6-6 guys.

Terrific team, one that moves to 12-0 and every bit worthy of their #1 NAIA II ranking.  I'd really like to see what they could do in the MIAA or CCIW, or even the D3 tournament.  (Kind of scary young too)



Olivet
The Comets have a couple injury issues, Vondette is out, and it appear Blake Krum may be as well.  He was in street clothes looking more like a coach than a player and still limping.  Maybe he'll be ready by the MIAA.  Chris Coles is playing a lot of guys and certainly has a lot of similar parts and pieces.  They have the look of a team really searching for lineups and combinations that work.  If you asked their staff I'm not sure they could rattle off their best players right now.

A couple things working against the Comets they can't really do anything about.  They are not very tall, and they are pretty young.  Coles went with an all Sophomore starting lineup today leaving better and more experienced guys like Union, Callahan, Easter and Antic on the bench.  Those also happen to be their only upper classmen (and all transfers in).  Height wise they have 7 footer Adam Raynor but in a game where IWU could trot out wave after wave of 6-6 guys the tallest guy in the gym played just 4 minutes and was manhandled.  Beyond him, RJ Hass and Nick Pepin are the only guys over 6-4 and they didn't look anything like Wesleyan's 6-5/6-6 guys.  Against most teams with any kind of front line they're in trouble.

What the Comets did do well was compete.  The zone they employed was very active and they were able to get their hands on a lot of passes especially early in the game.  Man for man they were just over-matched today but not from a lack of trying.  I also like their team spirit, the bench was up constantly encouraging the guys on the floor even when the score was pretty much settled.

Olivet might struggle to stay off the basement floor this year but they'll stay in more games than many figure.   Its really a matter of can they score enough to stay close enough at the end of games.  So far they've topped out at 67 and over 60 just 3 times.

Lastly I'll just mention Indiana Wesleyan is probably not the best opponent to gauge how good or bad a team is because those guys could beat a very large slice of D3 on any given night.  The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

As a former Calvin hoopster I take a good deal of pride in having played DIII hoops.  While I don't catch as many Calvin/MIAA games in person as I'd like, I get to my share--and watch online a fair bit too, so I'd like to think I have decent idea of the current level of play in the MIAA.

I've also watched a ton of NAIA DII basketball in the last 1 1/2 years, most of it in the Crossroads League, widely considered the top NAIA DII Conference in the country.  Indiana Wesleyan (IWU), St. Francis, and Bethel are the best teams this year (all currently top 10 nationally), and with some exceptions 1 or more of these teams have been at or near the top of the conference an awful lot in the last 10-15 years.  The conference has won 6 national championships and been runner-up 3 times in the 23 year history of the event.  I also watched the majority of the games at last year's national championship, (which Indiana Wesleyan won), so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of NAIA basketball more broadly as well.     

sac, IWU would win the MIAA going away.  And with regard to how IWU would fare against DIII competition more broadly, I believe that IWU, and the best teams in the CL, would win the vast majority of the games---handily. That's not a knock on my alma mater, Hope, or DIII more broadly, just an honest opinion based on what I've seen. 

That said, I believe that Calvin and Hope would win far more than they lost playing all NAIA DII teams.  Flipping your framework and putting Hope and Calvin in the Crossroads League, my sense is that this year's Hope and Calvin teams would finish in the middle to top half of the conference, but outside the top three or four.  I've had a variation of this conversation with oldknight, and my perspective is that the biggest difference in the levels/conferences is that the quality of guard/perimeter play in the Crossroads League, and NAIA in general, is significantly superior to the MIAA/DIII.  Based on what I've seen, my theory, however flawed, is that there are simply more "undersized" guys that may not fit neatly in a DI/DII mold who receive scholarship offers from NAIA schools.  Add to that the fact that NCAA DI and DII transfers don't have to sit a year before playing NAIA, and you end up with a very deep pool of talent.   Like the MIAA, really good 5's are nearly as rare in the Crossroads League and NAIA broadly--the dearth of bigs means that the higher levels will take a chance on a big and invest the time in hopes they can contribute when they are upperclassmen. 

There are obviously players in the MIAA who would be very nice players in the CL, and some of the historically finest teams in the MIAA could compete and win at the highest levels of NAIA without a doubt.  And I would say the same thing about NAIA DII players and teams relative to NCAA DII.   

[sac]

Indiana Wesleyan 73  Olivet 53

Wesleyan is a very good basketball team.  Hard working, make the extra passes, really fun team to watch.  It was pretty clear early on the Wildcats weren't all in the game.  They probably thought their trip to Olivet would be easy but the Comets competed hard, stayed in a zone that was decent at times and made life more difficult for IWU than they wanted.  Once they began unlocking the zone though there wasn't much stopping them.  After Olivet's early 10-3 burst to take the lead it was all IWU even with a slimish 6 point halftime lead, it just didn't feel like Olivet was going to stay close for much longer.

Sure enough the Wildcats blew the game open to start the second half.  I happen to be standing at the door as they entered the gym for the second half and made a team circle and gave each other strong words of encouragement.  It might as well have been over then.   Stronger defense, some transition buckets and completely obliterating Olivet's zone with the extra pass down low led to a 15-0 run to start the half and it could have been so much worse.  The Wildcats made just 1 of 6 3-point shots during this run.  On the season they're a 46% team from 3 but struggled today even against that zone and getting a lot of wide open shots.  They made just 5 of 24 on this day.

Interesting finish to the game:   IWU only plays 3 guards, a fourth is listed as guard but plays the 3/4 spot the whole game.  With the score in hand IWU trotted out a lineup of 6-2, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6 and 6-9  with no point guard and no real ball-handler.  They played like that for 5 minutes and even subbed a couple of other 6-6 guys.

Terrific team, one that moves to 12-0 and every bit worthy of their #1 NAIA II ranking.  I'd really like to see what they could do in the MIAA or CCIW, or even the D3 tournament.  (Kind of scary young too)



Olivet
The Comets have a couple injury issues, Vondette is out, and it appear Blake Krum may be as well.  He was in street clothes looking more like a coach than a player and still limping.  Maybe he'll be ready by the MIAA.  Chris Coles is playing a lot of guys and certainly has a lot of similar parts and pieces.  They have the look of a team really searching for lineups and combinations that work.  If you asked their staff I'm not sure they could rattle off their best players right now.

A couple things working against the Comets they can't really do anything about.  They are not very tall, and they are pretty young.  Coles went with an all Sophomore starting lineup today leaving better and more experienced guys like Union, Callahan, Easter and Antic on the bench.  Those also happen to be their only upper classmen (and all transfers in).  Height wise they have 7 footer Adam Raynor but in a game where IWU could trot out wave after wave of 6-6 guys the tallest guy in the gym played just 4 minutes and was manhandled.  Beyond him, RJ Hass and Nick Pepin are the only guys over 6-4 and they didn't look anything like Wesleyan's 6-5/6-6 guys.  Against most teams with any kind of front line they're in trouble.

What the Comets did do well was compete.  The zone they employed was very active and they were able to get their hands on a lot of passes especially early in the game.  Man for man they were just over-matched today but not from a lack of trying.  I also like their team spirit, the bench was up constantly encouraging the guys on the floor even when the score was pretty much settled.

Olivet might struggle to stay off the basement floor this year but they'll stay in more games than many figure.   Its really a matter of can they score enough to stay close enough at the end of games.  So far they've topped out at 67 and over 60 just 3 times.

Lastly I'll just mention Indiana Wesleyan is probably not the best opponent to gauge how good or bad a team is because those guys could beat a very large slice of D3 on any given night.  The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

As a former Calvin hoopster I take a good deal of pride in having played DIII hoops.  While I don't catch as many Calvin/MIAA games in person as I'd like, I get to my share--and watch online a fair bit too, so I'd like to think I have decent idea of the current level of play in the MIAA.

I've also watched a ton of NAIA DII basketball in the last 1 1/2 years, most of it in the Crossroads League, widely considered the top NAIA DII Conference in the country.  Indiana Wesleyan (IWU), St. Francis, and Bethel are the best teams this year (all currently top 10 nationally), and with some exceptions 1 or more of these teams have been at or near the top of the conference an awful lot in the last 10-15 years.  The conference has won 6 national championships and been runner-up 3 times in the 23 year history of the event.  I also watched the majority of the games at last year's national championship, (which Indiana Wesleyan won), so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of NAIA basketball more broadly as well.     

sac, IWU would win the MIAA going away.  And with regard to how IWU would fare against DIII competition more broadly, I believe that IWU, and the best teams in the CL, would win the vast majority of the games---handily. That's not a knock on my alma mater, Hope, or DIII more broadly, just an honest opinion based on what I've seen. 

That said, I believe that Calvin and Hope would win far more than they lost playing all NAIA DII teams.  Flipping your framework and putting Hope and Calvin in the Crossroads League, my sense is that this year's Hope and Calvin teams would finish in the middle to top half of the conference, but outside the top three or four.  I've had a variation of this conversation with oldknight, and my perspective is that the biggest difference in the levels/conferences is that the quality of guard/perimeter play in the Crossroads League, and NAIA in general, is significantly superior to the MIAA/DIII.  Based on what I've seen, my theory, however flawed, is that there are simply more "undersized" guys that may not fit neatly in a DI/DII mold who receive scholarship offers from NAIA schools.  Add to that the fact that NCAA DI and DII transfers don't have to sit a year before playing NAIA, and you end up with a very deep pool of talent.   Like the MIAA, really good 5's are nearly as rare in the Crossroads League and NAIA broadly--the dearth of bigs means that the higher levels will take a chance on a big and invest the time in hopes they can contribute when they are upperclassmen. 

There are obviously players in the MIAA who would be very nice players in the CL, and some of the historically finest teams in the MIAA could compete and win at the highest levels of NAIA without a doubt.  And I would say the same thing about NAIA DII players and teams relative to NCAA DII.

Hope beat Indiana Wesleyan 70-66 in 2012 unfortunately I missed that game so I have no comparison to this years Wesleyan.   Side Note:  there were two players on IWU this year who played in that game.  That year Wesleyan went 12-6 in the Crossroads which was good enough for a Co-Championship.  Four teams made the NAIA field of 32, the top two teams from the Crossroads were beaten in round 1, the third team in round 2 and the 4th place team St. Francis made the quarterfinal.  Crazy year for them that year.

I think 'win the MIAA going away' is too strong of a statement.  They would do well and probably win a few titles, but this year they beat Cornerstone in a similar manner as Hope did.  I don't think they would walk away with anything.

Would be interesting though.

[wiz]

Indiana Wesleyan 73  Olivet 53

Wesleyan is a very good basketball team.  Hard working, make the extra passes, really fun team to watch.  It was pretty clear early on the Wildcats weren't all in the game.  They probably thought their trip to Olivet would be easy but the Comets competed hard, stayed in a zone that was decent at times and made life more difficult for IWU than they wanted.  Once they began unlocking the zone though there wasn't much stopping them.  After Olivet's early 10-3 burst to take the lead it was all IWU even with a slimish 6 point halftime lead, it just didn't feel like Olivet was going to stay close for much longer.

Sure enough the Wildcats blew the game open to start the second half.  I happen to be standing at the door as they entered the gym for the second half and made a team circle and gave each other strong words of encouragement.  It might as well have been over then.   Stronger defense, some transition buckets and completely obliterating Olivet's zone with the extra pass down low led to a 15-0 run to start the half and it could have been so much worse.  The Wildcats made just 1 of 6 3-point shots during this run.  On the season they're a 46% team from 3 but struggled today even against that zone and getting a lot of wide open shots.  They made just 5 of 24 on this day.

Interesting finish to the game:   IWU only plays 3 guards, a fourth is listed as guard but plays the 3/4 spot the whole game.  With the score in hand IWU trotted out a lineup of 6-2, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6 and 6-9  with no point guard and no real ball-handler.  They played like that for 5 minutes and even subbed a couple of other 6-6 guys.

Terrific team, one that moves to 12-0 and every bit worthy of their #1 NAIA II ranking.  I'd really like to see what they could do in the MIAA or CCIW, or even the D3 tournament.  (Kind of scary young too)



Olivet
The Comets have a couple injury issues, Vondette is out, and it appear Blake Krum may be as well.  He was in street clothes looking more like a coach than a player and still limping.  Maybe he'll be ready by the MIAA.  Chris Coles is playing a lot of guys and certainly has a lot of similar parts and pieces.  They have the look of a team really searching for lineups and combinations that work.  If you asked their staff I'm not sure they could rattle off their best players right now.

A couple things working against the Comets they can't really do anything about.  They are not very tall, and they are pretty young.  Coles went with an all Sophomore starting lineup today leaving better and more experienced guys like Union, Callahan, Easter and Antic on the bench.  Those also happen to be their only upper classmen (and all transfers in).  Height wise they have 7 footer Adam Raynor but in a game where IWU could trot out wave after wave of 6-6 guys the tallest guy in the gym played just 4 minutes and was manhandled.  Beyond him, RJ Hass and Nick Pepin are the only guys over 6-4 and they didn't look anything like Wesleyan's 6-5/6-6 guys.  Against most teams with any kind of front line they're in trouble.

What the Comets did do well was compete.  The zone they employed was very active and they were able to get their hands on a lot of passes especially early in the game.  Man for man they were just over-matched today but not from a lack of trying.  I also like their team spirit, the bench was up constantly encouraging the guys on the floor even when the score was pretty much settled.

Olivet might struggle to stay off the basement floor this year but they'll stay in more games than many figure.   Its really a matter of can they score enough to stay close enough at the end of games.  So far they've topped out at 67 and over 60 just 3 times.

Lastly I'll just mention Indiana Wesleyan is probably not the best opponent to gauge how good or bad a team is because those guys could beat a very large slice of D3 on any given night.  The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

As a former Calvin hoopster I take a good deal of pride in having played DIII hoops.  While I don't catch as many Calvin/MIAA games in person as I'd like, I get to my share--and watch online a fair bit too, so I'd like to think I have decent idea of the current level of play in the MIAA.

I've also watched a ton of NAIA DII basketball in the last 1 1/2 years, most of it in the Crossroads League, widely considered the top NAIA DII Conference in the country.  Indiana Wesleyan (IWU), St. Francis, and Bethel are the best teams this year (all currently top 10 nationally), and with some exceptions 1 or more of these teams have been at or near the top of the conference an awful lot in the last 10-15 years.  The conference has won 6 national championships and been runner-up 3 times in the 23 year history of the event.  I also watched the majority of the games at last year's national championship, (which Indiana Wesleyan won), so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of NAIA basketball more broadly as well.     

sac, IWU would win the MIAA going away.  And with regard to how IWU would fare against DIII competition more broadly, I believe that IWU, and the best teams in the CL, would win the vast majority of the games---handily. That's not a knock on my alma mater, Hope, or DIII more broadly, just an honest opinion based on what I've seen. 

That said, I believe that Calvin and Hope would win far more than they lost playing all NAIA DII teams.  Flipping your framework and putting Hope and Calvin in the Crossroads League, my sense is that this year's Hope and Calvin teams would finish in the middle to top half of the conference, but outside the top three or four.  I've had a variation of this conversation with oldknight, and my perspective is that the biggest difference in the levels/conferences is that the quality of guard/perimeter play in the Crossroads League, and NAIA in general, is significantly superior to the MIAA/DIII.  Based on what I've seen, my theory, however flawed, is that there are simply more "undersized" guys that may not fit neatly in a DI/DII mold who receive scholarship offers from NAIA schools.  Add to that the fact that NCAA DI and DII transfers don't have to sit a year before playing NAIA, and you end up with a very deep pool of talent.   Like the MIAA, really good 5's are nearly as rare in the Crossroads League and NAIA broadly--the dearth of bigs means that the higher levels will take a chance on a big and invest the time in hopes they can contribute when they are upperclassmen. 

There are obviously players in the MIAA who would be very nice players in the CL, and some of the historically finest teams in the MIAA could compete and win at the highest levels of NAIA without a doubt.  And I would say the same thing about NAIA DII players and teams relative to NCAA DII.

Hope beat Indiana Wesleyan 70-66 in 2012 unfortunately I missed that game so I have no comparison to this years Wesleyan.   Side Note:  there were two players on IWU this year who played in that game.  That year Wesleyan went 12-6 in the Crossroads which was good enough for a Co-Championship.  Four teams made the NAIA field of 32, the top two teams from the Crossroads were beaten in round 1, the third team in round 2 and the 4th place team St. Francis made the quarterfinal.  Crazy year for them that year.

I think 'win the MIAA going away' is too strong of a statement.  They would do well and probably win a few titles, but this year they beat Cornerstone in a similar manner as Hope did.  I don't think they would walk away with anything.

Would be interesting though.

Indiana Wesleyan and Hope hardly faced the same Cornerstone team this year.  IWU went up against Ben Lanning who is arguably Cornerstone ' s best player and would be first team MIAA, hands down.  Lanning was not able to play in the loss to Hope.

[sac]

I got neg'd for even mentioning Lanning was out 3 weeks so so 

[pointlem]

I got neg'd for even mentioning Lanning was out 3 weeks so so 

I'd never ding you, Sac . . . but Lanning, in the games that he has played, has but the third highest scoring average on his team.  For example, his 44% shooting average and 13.9 ppg are comfortably exceeded by Kyle Steigenga's 67% shooting and 18.5 ppg. 

Hope may not have faced a full-strength Cornerstone team, but they beat them by a comfortable-enough margin to suggest a close game with Lanning healthy.

[wiz]

I got neg'd for even mentioning Lanning was out 3 weeks so so 

I'd never ding you, Sac . . . but Lanning, in the games that he has played, has but the third highest scoring average on his team.  For example, his 44% shooting average and 13.9 ppg are comfortably exceeded by Kyle Steigenga's 67% shooting and 18.5 ppg. 

Hope may not have faced a full-strength Cornerstone team, but they beat them by a comfortable-enough margin to suggest a close game with Lanning healthy.

Is this the criteria for best player?  Shooting percentage and average points per game?  Oops, I didn't know.

[wiz]

The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

We're talking about the men's team right?  Saw the women won handily but the men seem to be struggling so far.

[sac]

The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

We're talking about the men's team right?  Saw the women won handily but the men seem to be struggling so far.

...because in a 7 paragraph dissertation about a men's game I suddenly and boldly pointed out a women's game.

[sac]

Marygrove 78 Olivet 72

Marygrove's 3rd win this year, one of those over Illinois Tech.

[iwumichigander]

Marygrove 78 Olivet 72

Marygrove's 3rd win this year, one of those over Illinois Tech.

Illinois Tech 0-7 this season but a w is w!

[knightvision]

Indiana Wesleyan 73  Olivet 53

Wesleyan is a very good basketball team.  Hard working, make the extra passes, really fun team to watch.  It was pretty clear early on the Wildcats weren't all in the game.  They probably thought their trip to Olivet would be easy but the Comets competed hard, stayed in a zone that was decent at times and made life more difficult for IWU than they wanted.  Once they began unlocking the zone though there wasn't much stopping them.  After Olivet's early 10-3 burst to take the lead it was all IWU even with a slimish 6 point halftime lead, it just didn't feel like Olivet was going to stay close for much longer.

Sure enough the Wildcats blew the game open to start the second half.  I happen to be standing at the door as they entered the gym for the second half and made a team circle and gave each other strong words of encouragement.  It might as well have been over then.   Stronger defense, some transition buckets and completely obliterating Olivet's zone with the extra pass down low led to a 15-0 run to start the half and it could have been so much worse.  The Wildcats made just 1 of 6 3-point shots during this run.  On the season they're a 46% team from 3 but struggled today even against that zone and getting a lot of wide open shots.  They made just 5 of 24 on this day.

Interesting finish to the game:   IWU only plays 3 guards, a fourth is listed as guard but plays the 3/4 spot the whole game.  With the score in hand IWU trotted out a lineup of 6-2, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6 and 6-9  with no point guard and no real ball-handler.  They played like that for 5 minutes and even subbed a couple of other 6-6 guys.

Terrific team, one that moves to 12-0 and every bit worthy of their #1 NAIA II ranking.  I'd really like to see what they could do in the MIAA or CCIW, or even the D3 tournament.  (Kind of scary young too)



Olivet
The Comets have a couple injury issues, Vondette is out, and it appear Blake Krum may be as well.  He was in street clothes looking more like a coach than a player and still limping.  Maybe he'll be ready by the MIAA.  Chris Coles is playing a lot of guys and certainly has a lot of similar parts and pieces.  They have the look of a team really searching for lineups and combinations that work.  If you asked their staff I'm not sure they could rattle off their best players right now.

A couple things working against the Comets they can't really do anything about.  They are not very tall, and they are pretty young.  Coles went with an all Sophomore starting lineup today leaving better and more experienced guys like Union, Callahan, Easter and Antic on the bench.  Those also happen to be their only upper classmen (and all transfers in).  Height wise they have 7 footer Adam Raynor but in a game where IWU could trot out wave after wave of 6-6 guys the tallest guy in the gym played just 4 minutes and was manhandled.  Beyond him, RJ Hass and Nick Pepin are the only guys over 6-4 and they didn't look anything like Wesleyan's 6-5/6-6 guys.  Against most teams with any kind of front line they're in trouble.

What the Comets did do well was compete.  The zone they employed was very active and they were able to get their hands on a lot of passes especially early in the game.  Man for man they were just over-matched today but not from a lack of trying.  I also like their team spirit, the bench was up constantly encouraging the guys on the floor even when the score was pretty much settled.

Olivet might struggle to stay off the basement floor this year but they'll stay in more games than many figure.   Its really a matter of can they score enough to stay close enough at the end of games.  So far they've topped out at 67 and over 60 just 3 times.

Lastly I'll just mention Indiana Wesleyan is probably not the best opponent to gauge how good or bad a team is because those guys could beat a very large slice of D3 on any given night.  The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

As a former Calvin hoopster I take a good deal of pride in having played DIII hoops.  While I don't catch as many Calvin/MIAA games in person as I'd like, I get to my share--and watch online a fair bit too, so I'd like to think I have decent idea of the current level of play in the MIAA.

I've also watched a ton of NAIA DII basketball in the last 1 1/2 years, most of it in the Crossroads League, widely considered the top NAIA DII Conference in the country.  Indiana Wesleyan (IWU), St. Francis, and Bethel are the best teams this year (all currently top 10 nationally), and with some exceptions 1 or more of these teams have been at or near the top of the conference an awful lot in the last 10-15 years.  The conference has won 6 national championships and been runner-up 3 times in the 23 year history of the event.  I also watched the majority of the games at last year's national championship, (which Indiana Wesleyan won), so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of NAIA basketball more broadly as well.     

sac, IWU would win the MIAA going away.  And with regard to how IWU would fare against DIII competition more broadly, I believe that IWU, and the best teams in the CL, would win the vast majority of the games---handily. That's not a knock on my alma mater, Hope, or DIII more broadly, just an honest opinion based on what I've seen. 

That said, I believe that Calvin and Hope would win far more than they lost playing all NAIA DII teams.  Flipping your framework and putting Hope and Calvin in the Crossroads League, my sense is that this year's Hope and Calvin teams would finish in the middle to top half of the conference, but outside the top three or four.  I've had a variation of this conversation with oldknight, and my perspective is that the biggest difference in the levels/conferences is that the quality of guard/perimeter play in the Crossroads League, and NAIA in general, is significantly superior to the MIAA/DIII.  Based on what I've seen, my theory, however flawed, is that there are simply more "undersized" guys that may not fit neatly in a DI/DII mold who receive scholarship offers from NAIA schools.  Add to that the fact that NCAA DI and DII transfers don't have to sit a year before playing NAIA, and you end up with a very deep pool of talent.   Like the MIAA, really good 5's are nearly as rare in the Crossroads League and NAIA broadly--the dearth of bigs means that the higher levels will take a chance on a big and invest the time in hopes they can contribute when they are upperclassmen. 

There are obviously players in the MIAA who would be very nice players in the CL, and some of the historically finest teams in the MIAA could compete and win at the highest levels of NAIA without a doubt.  And I would say the same thing about NAIA DII players and teams relative to NCAA DII.

Hope beat Indiana Wesleyan 70-66 in 2012 unfortunately I missed that game so I have no comparison to this years Wesleyan.   Side Note:  there were two players on IWU this year who played in that game.  That year Wesleyan went 12-6 in the Crossroads which was good enough for a Co-Championship.  Four teams made the NAIA field of 32, the top two teams from the Crossroads were beaten in round 1, the third team in round 2 and the 4th place team St. Francis made the quarterfinal.  Crazy year for them that year.

I think 'win the MIAA going away' is too strong of a statement.  They would do well and probably win a few titles, but this year they beat Cornerstone in a similar manner as Hope did.  I don't think they would walk away with anything.

Would be interesting though.

I don't know how good Crossroads League teams were in 2011-2012--didn't see one game. But I think I could argue pretty convincingly that your referencing that year probably provides some support for my perspective.  The '11-'12 Hope squad was what I would call an "historically outstanding" MIAA team: 27-2 (which includes the loss to DI WMU), and had they persevered in the double OT thriller with Illinois Wesleyan, I for one believe that Hope may have hung their first banner.  They were 3-0 against the CL that year, including the win over CL co-champ IWU.  The four CL teams you referenced were 12-6, 12-6, 11-7, and 10-8 in conference that year, whatever that means, and I couldn't find another year in the previous ten years that the conference champ had that many losses.  Without even knowing how good these teams actually were, my MIAA/DIII roots would lead me to believe that Hope would have competed for a CL conference title that year and fared just as well as these teams at the NAIA national tourney. 

When I said that IWU would win the MIAA going away, I thought it was pretty clear that I meant this year. If not, mea culpa.  When I said Hope and Calvin would finish in the middle to top half of the CL but outside the top three or four, I mean this year.  I may very well be proven wrong in my assessment of the current editions of Hope and Calvin, but neither team strikes me as currently or potentially being in the category of historically outstanding.  Conversely, IWU, Bethel, and to a slightly lesser extent St. Francis are all really good this year, and based on what I've seen of the teams we are comparing, I would probably amend my original statement and say that IWU and Bethel would win the MIAA going away this year and St. Francis would be heavily favored to win the conference.  I'm not saying that to denigrate the MIAA or DIII--I'm saying that because it's what I believe about the teams this year based on what I've observed.

I'm not a big fan of using a single common opponent as the measuring stick for comparing teams.  If I'm arguing your perspective, I use your Cornerstone example.  If I want to pick a common opponent to counter your perspective, I'll pick Aquinas 

Now that we've established that you think I'm overstating the difference between conferences/levels and I believe you are understating the difference, can we please just get to the start of the MIAA conference season?  Kinda feels like Trine may make a bit more noise than initially thought.     

[bballfan13]

Indiana Wesleyan 73  Olivet 53

Wesleyan is a very good basketball team.  Hard working, make the extra passes, really fun team to watch.  It was pretty clear early on the Wildcats weren't all in the game.  They probably thought their trip to Olivet would be easy but the Comets competed hard, stayed in a zone that was decent at times and made life more difficult for IWU than they wanted.  Once they began unlocking the zone though there wasn't much stopping them.  After Olivet's early 10-3 burst to take the lead it was all IWU even with a slimish 6 point halftime lead, it just didn't feel like Olivet was going to stay close for much longer.

Sure enough the Wildcats blew the game open to start the second half.  I happen to be standing at the door as they entered the gym for the second half and made a team circle and gave each other strong words of encouragement.  It might as well have been over then.   Stronger defense, some transition buckets and completely obliterating Olivet's zone with the extra pass down low led to a 15-0 run to start the half and it could have been so much worse.  The Wildcats made just 1 of 6 3-point shots during this run.  On the season they're a 46% team from 3 but struggled today even against that zone and getting a lot of wide open shots.  They made just 5 of 24 on this day.

Interesting finish to the game:   IWU only plays 3 guards, a fourth is listed as guard but plays the 3/4 spot the whole game.  With the score in hand IWU trotted out a lineup of 6-2, 6-5, 6-6, 6-6 and 6-9  with no point guard and no real ball-handler.  They played like that for 5 minutes and even subbed a couple of other 6-6 guys.

Terrific team, one that moves to 12-0 and every bit worthy of their #1 NAIA II ranking.  I'd really like to see what they could do in the MIAA or CCIW, or even the D3 tournament.  (Kind of scary young too)



Olivet
The Comets have a couple injury issues, Vondette is out, and it appear Blake Krum may be as well.  He was in street clothes looking more like a coach than a player and still limping.  Maybe he'll be ready by the MIAA.  Chris Coles is playing a lot of guys and certainly has a lot of similar parts and pieces.  They have the look of a team really searching for lineups and combinations that work.  If you asked their staff I'm not sure they could rattle off their best players right now.

A couple things working against the Comets they can't really do anything about.  They are not very tall, and they are pretty young.  Coles went with an all Sophomore starting lineup today leaving better and more experienced guys like Union, Callahan, Easter and Antic on the bench.  Those also happen to be their only upper classmen (and all transfers in).  Height wise they have 7 footer Adam Raynor but in a game where IWU could trot out wave after wave of 6-6 guys the tallest guy in the gym played just 4 minutes and was manhandled.  Beyond him, RJ Hass and Nick Pepin are the only guys over 6-4 and they didn't look anything like Wesleyan's 6-5/6-6 guys.  Against most teams with any kind of front line they're in trouble.

What the Comets did do well was compete.  The zone they employed was very active and they were able to get their hands on a lot of passes especially early in the game.  Man for man they were just over-matched today but not from a lack of trying.  I also like their team spirit, the bench was up constantly encouraging the guys on the floor even when the score was pretty much settled.

Olivet might struggle to stay off the basement floor this year but they'll stay in more games than many figure.   Its really a matter of can they score enough to stay close enough at the end of games.  So far they've topped out at 67 and over 60 just 3 times.

Lastly I'll just mention Indiana Wesleyan is probably not the best opponent to gauge how good or bad a team is because those guys could beat a very large slice of D3 on any given night.  The Comets will go from playing NAIA's best to maybe one of its worst, Monday they host Marygrove.

As a former Calvin hoopster I take a good deal of pride in having played DIII hoops.  While I don't catch as many Calvin/MIAA games in person as I'd like, I get to my share--and watch online a fair bit too, so I'd like to think I have decent idea of the current level of play in the MIAA.

I've also watched a ton of NAIA DII basketball in the last 1 1/2 years, most of it in the Crossroads League, widely considered the top NAIA DII Conference in the country.  Indiana Wesleyan (IWU), St. Francis, and Bethel are the best teams this year (all currently top 10 nationally), and with some exceptions 1 or more of these teams have been at or near the top of the conference an awful lot in the last 10-15 years.  The conference has won 6 national championships and been runner-up 3 times in the 23 year history of the event.  I also watched the majority of the games at last year's national championship, (which Indiana Wesleyan won), so I feel like I have a pretty good sense of NAIA basketball more broadly as well.     

sac, IWU would win the MIAA going away.  And with regard to how IWU would fare against DIII competition more broadly, I believe that IWU, and the best teams in the CL, would win the vast majority of the games---handily. That's not a knock on my alma mater, Hope, or DIII more broadly, just an honest opinion based on what I've seen. 

That said, I believe that Calvin and Hope would win far more than they lost playing all NAIA DII teams.  Flipping your framework and putting Hope and Calvin in the Crossroads League, my sense is that this year's Hope and Calvin teams would finish in the middle to top half of the conference, but outside the top three or four.  I've had a variation of this conversation with oldknight, and my perspective is that the biggest difference in the levels/conferences is that the quality of guard/perimeter play in the Crossroads League, and NAIA in general, is significantly superior to the MIAA/DIII.  Based on what I've seen, my theory, however flawed, is that there are simply more "undersized" guys that may not fit neatly in a DI/DII mold who receive scholarship offers from NAIA schools.  Add to that the fact that NCAA DI and DII transfers don't have to sit a year before playing NAIA, and you end up with a very deep pool of talent.   Like the MIAA, really good 5's are nearly as rare in the Crossroads League and NAIA broadly--the dearth of bigs means that the higher levels will take a chance on a big and invest the time in hopes they can contribute when they are upperclassmen. 

There are obviously players in the MIAA who would be very nice players in the CL, and some of the historically finest teams in the MIAA could compete and win at the highest levels of NAIA without a doubt.  And I would say the same thing about NAIA DII players and teams relative to NCAA DII.

Hope beat Indiana Wesleyan 70-66 in 2012 unfortunately I missed that game so I have no comparison to this years Wesleyan.   Side Note:  there were two players on IWU this year who played in that game.  That year Wesleyan went 12-6 in the Crossroads which was good enough for a Co-Championship.  Four teams made the NAIA field of 32, the top two teams from the Crossroads were beaten in round 1, the third team in round 2 and the 4th place team St. Francis made the quarterfinal.  Crazy year for them that year.

I think 'win the MIAA going away' is too strong of a statement.  They would do well and probably win a few titles, but this year they beat Cornerstone in a similar manner as Hope did.  I don't think they would walk away with anything.

Would be interesting though.

I don't know how good Crossroads League teams were in 2011-2012--didn't see one game. But I think I could argue pretty convincingly that your referencing that year probably provides some support for my perspective.  The '11-'12 Hope squad was what I would call an "historically outstanding" MIAA team: 27-2 (which includes the loss to DI WMU), and had they persevered in the double OT thriller with Illinois Wesleyan, I for one believe that Hope may have hung their first banner.  They were 3-0 against the CL that year, including the win over CL co-champ IWU.  The four CL teams you referenced were 12-6, 12-6, 11-7, and 10-8 in conference that year, whatever that means, and I couldn't find another year in the previous ten years that the conference champ had that many losses.  Without even knowing how good these teams actually were, my MIAA/DIII roots would lead me to believe that Hope would have competed for a CL conference title that year and fared just as well as these teams at the NAIA national tourney. 

When I said that IWU would win the MIAA going away, I thought it was pretty clear that I meant this year. If not, mea culpa.  When I said Hope and Calvin would finish in the middle to top half of the CL but outside the top three or four, I mean this year.  I may very well be proven wrong in my assessment of the current editions of Hope and Calvin, but neither team strikes me as currently or potentially being in the category of historically outstanding.  Conversely, IWU, Bethel, and to a slightly lesser extent St. Francis are all really good this year, and based on what I've seen of the teams we are comparing, I would probably amend my original statement and say that IWU and Bethel would win the MIAA going away this year and St. Francis would be heavily favored to win the conference.  I'm not saying that to denigrate the MIAA or DIII--I'm saying that because it's what I believe about the teams this year based on what I've observed.

I'm not a big fan of using a single common opponent as the measuring stick for comparing teams.  If I'm arguing your perspective, I use your Cornerstone example.  If I want to pick a common opponent to counter your perspective, I'll pick Aquinas 

Now that we've established that you think I'm overstating the difference between conferences/levels and I believe you are understating the difference, can we please just get to the start of the MIAA conference season?  Kinda feels like Trine may make a bit more noise than initially thought.   

What do you mean first banner hung?......Oh....you mean that kind of banner