MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[calvinite]

I have found Calvin to be all show and less substance. Yes, they have had successful programs and they clearly have spent money on facilities .. but the fact the men's job will finally have teaching responsibilities removed ONLY because Vande Streek decided to retire from coaching (and stay on as a teacher) is an indictment. The same only happened with the women's job when Ross was forced to choose which coaching job he wanted to keep while still teaching.

Calvin has 11 national titles (four in men's cross-country, three in women's volleyball, and two apiece in men's basketball and women's cross-country), which puts it well within the top five percent among D3 schools. And only 16 schools have won D3 national championships in a broader array of sports than Calvin's four. That's not simply "successful programs." That is substance.

Yeah, requiring head coaches to also carry out classroom teaching responsibilities is an antiquated and unproductive policy. But you can't argue with eleven Big Doorstops.

Why the heck is ONLY capitalized?  Sauders has been Calvin's men's soccer coach since 2012 and has not teaching responsibilities / other Calvin responsibilities. Sure, they could have removed that for VandeStreek retroactively, but several coaches have been hired recently without  admin/teaching responsibilities including the women's soccer coach in the past year. And, speaking of soccer, Calvin's men's team has been to the national finals 2 of the last 3 years, and in between those two years, they were ranked #1 in the nation for most of the season and ended the year with just one or two losses (as I recall).  The women's soccer team has also had success at the national level recently, as has their women's track team, and I believe their women's softball team is ranked in the top 25 nationally right now.

Calvin doesn't emphasize sports (in terms of coach compensation, overall budget money, marketing material, etc.) as much as many/most DIII schools, and I actually appreciate that. It was not important  so important to me that my kids have well-paid coaches as that they had high quality insructors.  I don't think posters here are stating that Calvin does, and I certainly did not intend to give this message. What I did state is that Calvin had more resources than smaller school like Marrietta to compensate coaches a men's basketball coach than many DIII schools SHOULD THEY make that a priority. I mentioned the endowement along with several other thigns just because that's what I found during my 5 minute google search. I agree with what Dave said about the endowement, but the size of the endowement is just one indicator of school's findancial resources. Obviously schools with larger endowements are better able to provide financials assistance which attracts more students which results in more dollars to pay instructors.... and coaches.

While I can see why Dave would site the Ross situation, I think that can cut both ways in terms of how important winning at athletics is to Calvin College. That is, I agree that one solution in Ross's case could have been to let him keep both the tennis and W basketball by removing other responsibilities, but it could also be argued that they actually wanted a coach more focused on just w. basketball. And, while I don't doubt that the teaching and other responsibilities are probably a deterent to some potential coaches and not existent in other instututions, the idea that the teaching responsibilities of these coaches is overtly burdensome is a little dramatic, too. 

[Gregory Sager]

And, speaking of soccer, Calvin's men's team has been to the national finals 2 of the last 3 years, and in between those two years, they were ranked #1 in the nation for most of the season and ended the year with just one or two losses (as I recall).  The women's soccer team has also had success at the national level recently, as has their women's track team, and I believe their women's softball team is ranked in the top 25 nationally right now.

Dave is well aware of that, since he does the play-by-play for both the men's and women's D3 soccer Final Fours. But I probably should've cited those soccer facts myself, just to remind him of them.

Calvin doesn't emphasize sports (in terms of coach compensation, overall budget money, marketing material, etc.) as much as many/most DIII schools, and I actually appreciate that.

I'm not entirely sure that you have a good grasp of what the rest of the D3 landscape looks like. Most D3 schools have far fewer resources than does Calvin; therefore, the areas you cite (compensation of coaches, overall athletic budgets, marketing, etc.) are not areas in which Calvin receives short shrift by comparison. A minority of D3 schools that have fewer financial resources than Calvin do market their athletics more heavily and do offer more sports (Adrian, for example), but that's because they're tuition-driven schools that need to attract x number of students every year in order to pay the bills and keep the doors open -- and offering a wide menu of sports is a way to do that. In essence, it makes the athletic department a branch of admissions to a certain degree.

I think that if you were to visit a broad range of D3 institutions -- as I have in my role as a sports broadcaster -- you'd discover that Calvin athletics is definitely one of the haves rather than one of the have-nots. For example, wander south of the border and check out the situations at the HCAC schools sometime.

Obviously schools with larger endowements are better able to provide financials assistance which attracts more students which results in more dollars to pay instructors.... and coaches.

That's frequently true, but not necessarily true. An endowment (no 'e' in the middle) is simply the sum total of a school's monetary resources. It typically consists for the most part of money that was given to the school by benefactors. Sometimes this money was given with no strings attached, to do with as the school's administration sees fit. Those are called unrestricted gifts. But often the donation consists of directed gifts; i.e., money that was given to the school for a specific purpose by a benefactor who wanted some control over how the school would use the money. If these directed gifts were not specified for financial aid, then that money can't be used for that purpose.

I think you'd be surprised at just how much endowment money at various colleges and universities consists of donations that were received as directed gifts. Ask a Wheaton alumnus or alumna about that, for example. Wheaton has an endowment that's roughly four times the size of Calvin's, and yet for the past forty years I've listened to Wheaties and/or the parents of Wheaties gripe about how stingy the school is with financial aid -- probably because so much of that nearly $500m endowment of Wheaton's is tied up in directed gifts that aren't aimed at financial aid.

While I can see why Dave would site the Ross situation, I think that can cut both ways in terms of how important winning at athletics is to Calvin College. That is, I agree that one solution in Ross's case could have been to let him keep both the tennis and W basketball by removing other responsibilities, but it could also be argued that they actually wanted a coach more focused on just w. basketball. And, while I don't doubt that the teaching and other responsibilities are probably a deterent to some potential coaches and not existent in other instututions, the idea that the teaching responsibilities of these coaches is overtly burdensome is a little dramatic, too.

I don't think that any of us can speak to the burden, or lack thereof, of classroom teaching requirements for coaches in each specific case. Not every situation is the same; teaching a single non-credit PE course that requires you to do nothing but stand there with a whistle, go over the rudiments of the sport's rules on the first day, and then just let the students play it for an hour three times a week for the duration of a quarter or a semester is not the same thing as teaching three full-blown classroom courses for credit that require your comprehensive expertise on the subjects at hand, time and energy commitments outside the classroom in terms of curriculum prep and grading, administrative paperwork, meeting with students outside of class, etc.

But, by and large, if you're in a classroom setting teaching courses for credit, it takes you away from your coaching responsibilities to one degree or another. Again, whether that impacts your ability to recruit or not is something that needs to be addressed on a case-by-case basis ... but at best it's neutral or a slight detriment. At worst, it turns you into a part-time coach.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Per my use of the word, and caps, of "ONLY" ... I was simply referring to the men's basketball program. Vande Streek was still teaching. The only way that program was getting a coach who was not teaching was to have Vande Streek step down.

You prove my point, calvinite, by showing how successful the men's soccer program has been with a coach who is NOT teaching! They made a shift in that mentality and practice "recently" with new hires - but ONLY new hires. They didn't make that change with current coaches. So yes, Ryan Souders was hired and not given teaching responsibilities in 2012. Kevin Vande Streek continued to teach. Jeff Ross continued to teach. I can go on.

BTW - I love chatting with Sounders because, as Sager pointed out, I call the men's and women's soccer final fours.

And to Sager's point ... I am not referring to PE courses. Vande Streek had true classes with homework, tests, etc.

But again ... I am talking about the men's basketball program. Thus, my word's "the men's job." I didn't say "mens' job" to indicate any and all men's programs. I am talking about the men's basketball program ... since this is a basketball thread.

Per Olivet - I've been told candidates are being brought on campus this week. We shall see where it goes from there.

[HOPEful]

...Holland Christian, the mother of all CRC "feeder" schools...

How did HCS earn that title?

Holland Christian was founded in 1902, one year after Calvin College came to be. (Yes, they were founded in 1876. But as a prep school primarily for future pastors. They didn't broaden their curriculum until 1900, and didn't admit women until 1901.) In 1920, Calvin's prepatory department stopped accepting new students due to the opening of Grand Rapid Christian High School.

So clearly Grand Rapids Christian is the FATHER of all CRC "feeder" schools. But since the Holland Christian predates Grand Rapids Christian by about 18 years and the 1857 succession began at Pillar Church in Holland and continued in part over public v. private schooling, Holland Christian is the MOTHER of all CRC "feeder" schools.

[sac]

What constitutes a feeder school?

[Gregory Sager]

It's a high school that's affiliated to some degree with Calvin's parent denomination, the Christian Reformed Church. Calvin's nurtured a strong relationship over the decades with those schools, especially the ones in Michigan, and they've provided untold numbers of student-athletes to Calvin. (Hope's gotten a decent number of them as well, but those schools are -- or were -- clearly Calvin's farm system, not Hope's.)

[HOPEful]

What constitutes a feeder school?

My wife graduated from Holland Christian. She believes that 98 of the 300ish classmates she graduated with continued on to Calvin. Her two best friends from high school went to Trinity and Dordt (both CRC schools). Comparatively, of the 350 I graduated with, 7 of us continued on to Hope.

It is not a coincidence that HC's sports teams are the Maroons or that their colors are maroon and white. 

[Flying Dutch Fan]

What constitutes a feeder school?

My wife graduated from Holland Christian. She believes that 98 of the 300ish classmates she graduated with continued on to Calvin. Her two best friends from high school went to Trinity and Dordt (both CRC schools). Comparatively, of the 350 I graduated with, 7 of us continued on to Hope.

It is not a coincidence that HC's sports teams are the Maroons or that their colors are maroon and white.

2% sounds about right - we only want the cream of the crop     

[bballfan13]

Per my use of the word, and caps, of "ONLY" ... I was simply referring to the men's basketball program. Vande Streek was still teaching. The only way that program was getting a coach who was not teaching was to have Vande Streek step down.

You prove my point, calvinite, by showing how successful the men's soccer program has been with a coach who is NOT teaching! They made a shift in that mentality and practice "recently" with new hires - but ONLY new hires. They didn't make that change with current coaches. So yes, Ryan Souders was hired and not given teaching responsibilities in 2012. Kevin Vande Streek continued to teach. Jeff Ross continued to teach. I can go on.

BTW - I love chatting with Sounders because, as Sager pointed out, I call the men's and women's soccer final fours.

And to Sager's point ... I am not referring to PE courses. Vande Streek had true classes with homework, tests, etc.

But again ... I am talking about the men's basketball program. Thus, my word's "the men's job." I didn't say "mens' job" to indicate any and all men's programs. I am talking about the men's basketball program ... since this is a basketball thread.

Per Olivet - I've been told candidates are being brought on campus this week. We shall see where it goes from there.

There is a little more to this than just a current coach giving up their teaching responsibility voluntarily.  Most of the coaches who coached and taught for quite some time were also tenured.  Giving up teaching responsibility would have removed them from tenure as they were part of Faculty and not Staff.  This goes a bit deeper than you're making it out to be.  These are career, personal and family decisions as well.  Tenure is a big deal to someone who has it.

[HOPEful]

What constitutes a feeder school?

My wife graduated from Holland Christian. She believes that 98 of the 300ish classmates she graduated with continued on to Calvin. Her two best friends from high school went to Trinity and Dordt (both CRC schools). Comparatively, of the 350 I graduated with, 7 of us continued on to Hope.

It is not a coincidence that HC's sports teams are the Maroons or that their colors are maroon and white.

2% sounds about right - we only want the cream of the crop     

Very true for the other six. My parent's called Aunt Becky and she got me in.

[DrDutchman]

A little birdy has told me both the finalists for the Olivet job. They will either make you scratch your head or make your jaw drop. Both would be good hires though 🤗

[wiz]

A little birdy has told me both the finalists for the Olivet job. They will either make you scratch your head or make your jaw drop. Both would be good hires though 🤗

Matt Neil?

[HoopsCoach]

Steve Finamore?

[DrDutchman]

Not at privilege to say at the moment. Will share once a hire is made who the other candidate was.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

12 posts ... I'm sure you know something, but interesting for a newbie. I do know the finalists as well. Not sure I agree completely on head scratcher/jaw dropping ... but so I don't reveal anything, I won't say more.