MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[oldknight]

The only negative thing I took away from my first visit to "The Noord" was the lack of a "Player/Points/Fouls" scoreboard.   

That feature is available on the scoreboard but wasn't used for the JV game. I understand it will be in use for Wednesday's game with Trine.

[hope1]

looing towards for some good basketball games wed night  with hope at olivet will be a big win if they can beat them at olivet and trine at calvin to open the new fieldhouse  scould be exciting

[Titan Q]

sac, this is in regard to the discussion of Hope's lack of in-region games on the other board (the Dutchmen have only played one so far, Wheaton)...

http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?topic=5572.390

I'm sure I'm missing a few, but I believe this is Hope's list of "in-region" candidates (per NCAA definition) within 250 miles of Holland (an arbitrary distance I picked)...

Chicago, 151
Manchester, 157
Dominican, 160
Concordia (IL), 160
Elmhurst, 167
North Park, 170
Benedictine, 173
(Wheaton, 175) - Hope already plays
North Central, 176
Lake Forest, 181
Aurora, 188
Defiance, 198
Anderson, 223
Wabash, 234

I know that isn't a long list, but I think a good % of those schools would play Hope in non-conference play.

I'm not here to knock Hope for not "playing the game", by the way.  I'm sure there is an institutional reason for Hope's schedule and I won't pretend to know better.  I do think the Dutchmen could pretty easily put together an 11-game non-conference schedule where they play 6 or 7 in-region games without a crazy amount of travel.  This has always seemed like a "where there's a will there's a way thing" to me, and it just doesn't seem like Hope (and Calvin) wants to "play the game."

For perspective, this year IWU traveled to 3 in-region, non conference games - Manchester (198 miles), Wash U (162), and Hanover (271) - so not exactly right down the street.  Maryville, Chicago, and Illinois College came to Bloomington.  IWU played 6 in-region games (out of 11 total non-conf) and the way the system works, that is even a couple games short of the ideal total in my opinion.  I think next year IWU plays 10 in-region games before league play.

And to be very clear, I am not here to defend the NCAA's "in-region" games deal.  But it is what it is, and schools that don't play the game are at a disadvantage.

[sac]

Chicago, 151
Manchester, 157
Dominican, 160
Elmhurst, 167
North Park, 170
Benedictine, 173
(Wheaton, 175) - Hope already plays
North Central, 176
Lake Forest, 181
Aurora, 188
Defiance, 198
Anderson, 223
Wabash, 234

So how many other D3's are also trying to line-up games with those teams?  A few maybe?  You think there's a lot of open dates there that work for both schools?  I looked at all of those and they're packed with other teams alot closer than Holland or Grand Rapids.  Teams from the HCAC and Nathcon began conference play in December also more dates not available.

Also note that none of those teams you listed are actually in our own region.  FWIW, Ohio Northern is the closet GL region team to Hope......265 miles.

I've pointed this out before, the NCAC and OAC are 10 team conferences, thats 18 conference games and they both begin conference play in early December, not much room for a non-conference game, especially one 6-7 hours away when you have 15 other GL teams in your backyard closer than 3 hours. 

I don't feel the need to defend the schedule, I can't speak for Hope, I don't get the in's and out's like I used to.  There are more variables than I care to get into.   I'm just tired of seeing our teams criticized, especially by other conferences who really don't seem to have any idea how good they've got it when it comes to putting a schedule together.


-----------------------------

In Calvin's defense they brought Baldwin-Wallace to GR and their opening tournament, then Spring Arbor decided to be good and beat them.........so no in-region matchup for Calvin.  At Defiance Calvin beat Geneva and I'm sure expected to see Defiance in the Championship, but Rockford upset them.......so again no in-region game for Calvin.

[sac]

Sounds like Hope had a good practice Monday...........8 guys!

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x1060499140/Hope-men-tipoff-against-Olivet

Maybe they played horse.

[Mr. Ypsi]

sac, I DO apologize that I probably come off a bit over-the-top CCIW sometimes.  In just a year or two I will have been a Michigander for 2/3 of my life (so far, God willing!), so MIAA is definitely my next favorite conference. .

All but two of the schools Q listed are in-region by the 200-mile rule - they can't ALL be ducking Hope.   Just doesn't seem a good strategy by the d3 rules.

(Albeit, without looking it up, I suspect Hope has made the tourney more times in the last ten years than IWU; but as a pool C strategy, if needed, ...)

[Titan Q]

So how many other D3's are also trying to line-up games with those teams?  A few maybe?  You think there's a lot of open dates there that work for both schools?  I looked at all of those and they're packed with other teams alot closer than Holland or Grand Rapids.  Teams from the HCAC and Nathcon began conference play in December also more dates not available.

I have a strong feeling that most of the schools above would play Hope.  It might take 2 years to get home & homes on the schedule, but by 2010-2011 I'm almost positive Hope could be playing at least 4-5 of those teams if they wanted to.  That list includes several teams that 1) do not duck playing good programs, 2) don't seem opposed to traveling for non-conf games, and 3) have recently added new, quality non-conference opponents just this year, demonstrating that schedules can change quickly.

Also note that none of those teams you listed are actually in our own region.  FWIW, Ohio Northern is the closet GL region team to Hope......265 miles.

True, but nowadays that really does not matter.  "Great Lakes" or not, games vs every team listed above would be considered "in-region", either by the 200-mile rule or the Administrative Region rule (which brings in every Indiana D3).  These would all "count."


Again, I respect Hope's decision to not play many in-region games, for whatever that reason is.  But I do think it'd be pretty easy to change within 2 years if the staff ever wants to.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Again, I respect Hope's decision to not play many in-region games, for whatever that reason is. 

The reason is blatantly obvious - because it really pi$$es off CCIW posters.     

[ChicagoHopeNut]

At the risk of being ostracized and shunned I have to agree with our CCIW brethren at least to a degree. I can't pretend to know what goes into making Hope's schedule. I understand there are lots of "non-conference" tournaments that Hope is beholden to. That said I do think it'd be helpful if Hope found a way to schedule more in-region opponents. Whether that means bringing in some teams to Hope hosted tournaments or giving up a home tournament every other year to travel somewhere in region for a tournament I think it would be great for the team. (Personally, the only tournament I think should be "untouchable" is the Russ DeVette but there is no reason it has to be played at the end of December. Move the date around if necessary).

As I said I don't know how much effort has been made but I agree with others, where there is a will there is a way. UM and ND schedule years in advance. Maybe that's what it will take but so long as the NCAA insists on its silly regional system I think Hope should see what it can do to match up with a few more in-region teams before conference play.


On an entirely different note I never realized how big of a difference one hour could make. The 6:30 Central start time for games makes it amazingly difficult to be home or in a position to listen to the first half of games.

[Titan Q]

Again, I respect Hope's decision to not play many in-region games, for whatever that reason is. 

The reason is blatantly obvious - because it really pi$$es off CCIW posters.     

FDF, whether Hope plays 1 in-region non-conference game or 11 is of no consequence to me or, I'd guess, any CCIW fan.  I just think it is a very relevant conversation, which is why I posted my thoughts. 

I've had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in Salem, VA the last few years speaking to NCAA Tournament committee members - regional chairs as well as national chairs (guys like Pat Cunningham of Trinity-Tx, who will be the national chair again this year).  I've become very familiar with how the process works and, while I don't agree with a lot of it, I feel like I have a good handle on what the criteria is and how it's used. 

I can tell you that, without any question, playing 1 in-region non-conference game puts a team at a big disadvantage in terms of selection and seeding.  I know from following these boards over the years that the NCAA tournament is very important to Hope College and Hope fans.  I sense you guys love making a run at Salem, just as fans of my alma mater do.  That is why I think it's important to at least consider the schedule Hope is currently playing...it seems to put the Dutchmen at a disadvantage in an area that is important to many.

I've brought the same thing up with IWU head coach Ron Rose, by the way.  IWU played 5 games this non-conference that "didn't count."  A couple were out of their control (NAIA Taylor-Fort Wayne at the Manchester tournament and D3 Hamilton at Wash U), but IWU chose to play Olivet Nazarene and then in a tournament in Florida with 3 other NAIA schools.  The Titans could have played 3 more in-region opponents instead and had 9 in-region non-conf games instead of 6.

Scheduling is a tough process and a lot more goes into it than finding in-region games, but it seems to me like Hope is at an extreme.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Q - I  understand completely why you posted what you did.  I posted what I did for 2 reasons:

1) to be funny.  I guess you didn't get the joke  

2) to point out that prior to CHNs post, the only folks who have posted anything about Hope's schedule and lack of D3 opponents this year have been two CCIW posters.  In fact, if you look back over the years (because this discussion has been ongoing for several years) you will note that the vast majority of the posts criticizing Hope's schedule (or the other MIAA teams have been included from time to time) have been from CCIW posters.  That begs the question, why do you care so much about Hope or any MIAA school's schedule?  Is it frustration that these schools who won't play a schedule to your liking in the regular season have been beating you in the tournament (MIAA vs CCIW 2-1 since 00-01 season) - THAT'S ANOTHER JOKE!!  

[ziggy]

With the current size of the tournament field, it doesn't seem to me that the MIAA has had a difficult time getting two bids when there have been deserving teams.  Calvin, Hope, and Albion have all been able to make the field, when warranted, in the past five years.  The scheduling has served both schools fairly well, they would change that if the coaches felt on the contrary.

I feel that Calvin and Hope place more importance on their performance in MIAA play than in non-conference.  Thus, they decide to play opponents like Aquinas and Cornerstone that will get them ready for the conference season.  Why travel 250 miles for a game to appease committee members when you have some good competition in your own backyard?  Win the conference bid and the regional record is superfluous.   Sure seeding and home games may be affected, but Calvin and Hope made their most recent final four runs playing a combined three tournament games at home.

[wiz]

Is it possible that Calvin, Hope, and ther other academically strong institutions of the MIAA have a broader agenda for their student athletes and just don't see sports scheduling as a one of their college's core values?  Could they possibly be more interested in seeing a local bible college experience opportunities for growth than trying to insure their own self-centered seeding?  I think to win the national championship a school still has to beat all the teams they face in the tournament and sooner or later you have to defeat the best, regardless of where they may be seeded or in which round you may face them.

[gohope]

A quick question -

Does anyone know if the new Cutler Event Center at Olivet is near their football field?

Thanks!

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Could they possibly be more interested in seeing a local bible college experience opportunities for growth than trying to insure their own self-centered seeding? 

I have no insight to the scheduling motivations of anyone but I really doubt the folks at any school think how they could help "local school X" grow by scheduling them. The only exception I think is when you see coaches or ADs scheduling small schools that provided their personal starting point in the industry as a favor or out of respect. (I can't think of a perfect basketball scheduling example but Steve Spurrier voting Duke in the Coaches Poll at 25 to start each season is an example of paying respects to the school that gave him his first shot).