MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[ziggy]

Hyperbolize much? I didn't even say anything on this topic this season until today, pretty sure.

I recognize the value of containing cost and playing a couple games against local rivals. Just not as many as we're talking about here.

Give me a break. I have stayed out of this conversation precisely because of your personal reaction to it from previous years, sac. I don't know why it's personal for you but it's not for me.

Probably because "Outsiders" are pecking at 2 strong DIII teams that choose to play quality competition in their own backyard, regardless of affiliation.  I honestly have no idea why anyone would care.  If its really that important to you maybe you should invite KVS and GVW to a d3hoops.com scheduling seminar.  That way they can be filled in on what they are obviously missing.

Come on sac (and others), WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!!!

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Probably because "Outsiders" are pecking at 2 strong DIII teams that choose to play quality competition in their own backyard, regardless of affiliation.  I honestly have no idea why anyone would care.  If its really that important to you maybe you should invite KVS and GVW to a d3hoops.com scheduling seminar.  That way they can be filled in on what they are obviously missing.

Come on sac (and others), WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!!!

AWESOME, +k from me.  That is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

[Titan Q]

Probably because "Outsiders" are pecking at 2 strong DIII teams that choose to play quality competition in their own backyard, regardless of affiliation.

IWU has played NAIA I Olivet Nazarene every season for about 20 years.  Augustana plays a heated rivarly game with crosstown NAIA II St. Ambrose every year.  Those are great games for players, fans, and the schools.  I have no problem with Hope and Calvin playing quality NAIA teams.  My points are simply about the disadvantage they put themselves in by failing to balance those games with D3 in-region games.

Tournament records 2000-2008

CCIW  28-15  (.651)  2 final fours
MIAA   25-11  (.694)  3 final fours

The CCIW has actually had 3 Final Four teams this decade - IWU (2001), Carthage (2002), and IWU (2006).

I've said before on this site that most years, the best MIAA's top team has been better than the CCIW's - this is really not a CCIW vs MIAA thing at all, FDF.  I'm not sure why you continue to make it one. 

I think where the MIAA teams have been hurt because of the in-region issue, and will continue to be, is in seeding.  It is just too tough to get sent to Wooster or Wittenberg or UW-Stevens Point for the Sectionals.  Hope and Calvin are in a strong region, and have other strong regions next door.  Seeding is very important.  On the other hand, a team like Amherst can get sent just about anywhere for a Secitional and be the favorite.  If this was D1, where every game is neutral site, this wouldn't be a big deal...but the D3 bracket is so much about seeding.

I've said my peace and will leave you all to your conference season.  Best of luck to all in the MIAA in 2009.

I don't know what will make Q happy

It is a long list...that starts with a W tonight @ Wheaton!

http://www.pantagraph.com/articles/2009/01/07/usports/doc49642d281faec438486792.txt

[realist]

FDF:  Looking at those records, perhaps the reason the subject comes up every year is the MIAA success in the NCAA's really bugs some of the "quality" conferences.
 

[ziggy]

Probably because "Outsiders" are pecking at 2 strong DIII teams that choose to play quality competition in their own backyard, regardless of affiliation.

WU has played NAIA I Olivet Nazarene every season for about 20 years.  Augustana plays a heated rivarly game with crosstown NAIA II St. Ambrose every year.  Those are great games for players, fans, and the schools.  I have no problem with Hope and Calvin playing quality NAIA teams.  My points are simply about the disadvantage they put themselves in by failing to balance those games with D3 in-region games.

Understood.  However, the question that remains unanswered is, why does this seem to be an issue for you when it doesn't seem to be for the players, coaches, athletic department, and fans of the actual schools in question?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time seeing the disadvantage you're speaking of.  In 2005 Calvin and Albion both made the tournament, Albion got to host.  In 2006, Calvin and Hope both made the tournament, Hope got to host.  In 2007, Calvin and Hope both made the tournament.  In 2008, Hope got a first round bye and hosted.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Where to begin?!?

If you can't drive two hours for a game then you need to be playing intramurals. No offense.

I have to go with Pat on this one. If any school is seriously worried about driving a 4 hour loop they probably should seriously consider whether its even worth fielding teams. I'm not saying you need to travel long distances every game but a couple weekends a year should not be an issue.

Come on sac (and others), WE MUST PROTECT THIS HOUSE!!!

Hilarious!  

For teams like Calvin and Hope an in-region loss can hurt as much as, or more than, the win would help.

I think this may be the most insightful point on the issue. The GL region only ranks 6 teams so there are times one loss can mean a great deal more than 3 or 4 wins. If I'm a coach this would be the reason I'd be careful about scheduling in-region games.

Finally, I think the discussion of Final Four appearances, conference records, etc. really isn't relevant. Good teams win when they get to the tournament, bad teams lose. The issue is getting to the dance in the first place and sadly this whole conversation is relevant. In my opinion Hope and Calvin are very fortunate. They are well-known and well-respected programs so I think they get the benefit of the doubt. I think the other MIAA schools have lots more to gain by playing in-region games because they won't get the benefit in the same way when it comes to Pool C bids.

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Probably because "Outsiders" are pecking at 2 strong DIII teams that choose to play quality competition in their own backyard, regardless of affiliation.

WU has played NAIA I Olivet Nazarene every season for about 20 years.  Augustana plays a heated rivarly game with crosstown NAIA II St. Ambrose every year.  Those are great games for players, fans, and the schools.  I have no problem with Hope and Calvin playing quality NAIA teams.  My points are simply about the disadvantage they put themselves in by failing to balance those games with D3 in-region games.

Understood.  However, the question that remains unanswered is, why does this seem to be an issue for you when it doesn't seem to be for the players, coaches, athletic department, and fans of the actual schools in question?

Honestly, I'm having a hard time seeing the disadvantage you're speaking of.  In 2005 Calvin and Albion both made the tournament, Albion got to host.  In 2006, Calvin and Hope both made the tournament, Hope got to host.  In 2007, Calvin and Hope both made the tournament.  In 2008, Hope got a first round bye and hosted.

I'll only speak for myself but I am confident there are others out there (at least Hope fans) who do care about this issue to some degree. I'd love to see Hope schedule a more diverse group of schools and do what they can to bring in some more in-region schools, yes, I recognize that is not easy but I don't think it's impossible either.

[KnightSlappy]

If you can't drive two hours for a game then you need to be playing intramurals. No offense.

I have to go with Pat on this one. If any school is seriously worried about driving a 4 hour loop they probably should seriously consider whether its even worth fielding teams. I'm not saying you need to travel long distances every game but a couple weekends a year should not be an issue.

I don't believe any of the teams Q listed are inside a 4 hour loop for Hope, much less Calvin...

[hope1]

ive heard  that a lot of ohio schools and other  wont come to holland to play or coem to gr to calvin because we both can beat them there

[ChicagoHopeNut]

Titan Q suggested the following schools (see below with a few times randomly selected) and KnightSlappy is correct my reference to a 4 hour loop was based on the 125 mile one way reference someone through out and that would not work out well at all. That said I think you could make these work. A Thursday night game in a home and away (who has Friday classes anyways? Answer: No one after their Freshman year if they can avoid it). For Hope a 6 hour loop really can be done in one day and certainly is an easy weekend.

School                            Driving time from Hope
Chicago, 151                       2:27
Manchester, 157                  3:03 (bad roads
Dominican, 160                   2:50
Concordia (IL), 160              2:48
Elmhurst, 167                     2:49
North Park, 170
Benedictine, 173
(Wheaton, 175) - Hope already plays
North Central, 176
Lake Forest, 181
Aurora, 188
Defiance, 198
Anderson, 223
Wabash, 234                    3:48

[sac]

I think where the MIAA teams have been hurt because of the in-region issue, and will continue to be, is in seeding.  It is just too tough to get sent to Wooster or Wittenberg or UW-Stevens Point for the Sectionals.  Hope and Calvin are in a strong region, and have other strong regions next door.  Seeding is very important.  On the other hand, a team like Amherst can get sent just about anywhere for a Secitional and be the favorite.  If this was D1, where every game is neutral site, this wouldn't be a big deal...but the D3 bracket is so much about seeding.

Seeding?

2000 Calvin hosted all 4 games before Salem
2001 Calvin hosted Defiance in round 1, went to ONU in round 2
2002 Hope  went to St. Norbert and Carthage as the tournament AQ winner, Calvin won MIAA regular season
2003 Hope hosted UW-Oshkosh in round 2, which means they got a bye, which means they must have been pretty highly seeded.
2004 Calvin went to John Carroll in round 2, received a 1st round bye
2005 Albion hosted all 4 tournmanet games played.
2006 Hope hosted first 2 rounds, then traveled to Wittenberg, Hope was the MIAA tournament winner, Calvin won MIAA Championship
2007 Both Hope and Calvin are sent to Aurora of all places, the only time where it could even be argued the MIAA didn't get fair shake because of the in-region argument.
2008 Hope hosts all 3 games, and draws a first bye.

I'm not seeing any seeding issues here Bob.

[GoKnights68]

It seems if you're a student and want to get a ticket for tonight's game, you can't get one in the official student section, but can only get one in the upper bowl.  The FAC ticket box office is open till 5 pm by the way.

[almcguirejr]

I think where the MIAA teams have been hurt because of the in-region issue, and will continue to be, is in seeding.  It is just too tough to get sent to Wooster or Wittenberg or UW-Stevens Point for the Sectionals.  Hope and Calvin are in a strong region, and have other strong regions next door.  Seeding is very important.  On the other hand, a team like Amherst can get sent just about anywhere for a Secitional and be the favorite.  If this was D1, where every game is neutral site, this wouldn't be a big deal...but the D3 bracket is so much about seeding.

Seeding?

2000 Calvin hosted all 4 games before Salem
2001 Calvin hosted Defiance in round 1, went to ONU in round 2
2002 Hope  went to St. Norbert and Carthage as the tournament AQ winner, Calvin won MIAA regular season
2003 Hope hosted UW-Oshkosh in round 2, which means they got a bye, which means they must have been pretty highly seeded.
2004 Calvin went to John Carroll in round 2, received a 1st round bye
2005 Albion hosted all 4 tournmanet games played.
2006 Hope hosted first 2 rounds, then traveled to Wittenberg, Hope was the MIAA tournament winner, Calvin won MIAA Championship
2007 Both Hope and Calvin are sent to Aurora of all places, the only time where it could even be argued the MIAA didn't get fair shake because of the in-region argument.
2008 Hope hosts all 3 games, and draws a first bye.

I'm not seeing any seeding issues here Bob.

In 2005 Calvin traveled to Wheaton, Aurora,  and 2 games at Albion.

[Flying Dutch Fan]

Finally, I think the discussion of Final Four appearances, conference records, etc. really isn't relevant. Good teams win when they get to the tournament, bad teams lose.

And who you play early in the year, building your team chemistry, setting rotations, challenging the players, and getting everyone playing time, all contribute to your ability to be one of the good teams.  The kind of team you're playing, and how that contributes to your teams growth are far more important than the number of in-region games you play.  Tough losses to good NAIA teams may be worth far more than an in-region win.  

[sac]

Yes

I think where the MIAA teams have been hurt because of the in-region issue, and will continue to be, is in seeding.  It is just too tough to get sent to Wooster or Wittenberg or UW-Stevens Point for the Sectionals.  Hope and Calvin are in a strong region, and have other strong regions next door.  Seeding is very important.  On the other hand, a team like Amherst can get sent just about anywhere for a Secitional and be the favorite.  If this was D1, where every game is neutral site, this wouldn't be a big deal...but the D3 bracket is so much about seeding.

Seeding?

2000 Calvin hosted all 4 games before Salem
2001 Calvin hosted Defiance in round 1, went to ONU in round 2
2002 Hope  went to St. Norbert and Carthage as the tournament AQ winner, Calvin won MIAA regular season
2003 Hope hosted UW-Oshkosh in round 2, which means they got a bye, which means they must have been pretty highly seeded.
2004 Calvin went to John Carroll in round 2, received a 1st round bye
2005 Albion hosted all 4 tournmanet games played.
2006 Hope hosted first 2 rounds, then traveled to Wittenberg, Hope was the MIAA tournament winner, Calvin won MIAA Championship
2007 Both Hope and Calvin are sent to Aurora of all places, the only time where it could even be argued the MIAA didn't get fair shake because of the in-region argument.
2008 Hope hosts all 3 games, and draws a first bye.

I'm not seeing any seeding issues here Bob.

In 2005 Calvin traveled to Wheaton, Aurora,  and 2 games at Albion.

Yes, I'm aware, but as the AQ winner, seeding wouldn't have been an issue for Calvin that year.

But you do remind me that Albion hosted all those games without even being the MIAA's AQ, and being a Pool C team.