MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[hoopdreams]

believe I clearly stated that I had not watched them play, it was my opinion which may or may not hold any water.  Time will tell.  Truthfully I hope I'm wrong because the Hope-Calvin domination, for the most part, is quite boring.  Am I relatively correct in saying that in past years they haven't performed as a top program?

We often forget that this is a message board and forum to speak about all things related to MIAA hoops. Correct or not, one is entitled to give his or her opinion.  I'm sorry mine doesn't necessarily allign with yours.

I never never met Coach, nor been to a practice, but I do know that if a player, or anyone for that matter told me to "f%^& off" in practice, in my office, or in front of 1000 people, I wouldn't let it slide. Let alone PUT HIM BACK IN THE GAME as if nothing happened. His rear would be put in place. Coach should have spent a timeout reminding the kid a little something about respect and reteaching his kids how to break token 3/4 pressure, if I remember correctly, because that killed the Bulldogs in the first half at Adrian last year.

Best wishes to your school, I hope the play well all season long so we don't have to hear how top heavy the MIAA always is.  Another W on Wednesday can go a long way....

[Dark Knight]

Team	Relative strength	Expected wins
Hope	15	12.3
Calvin	12.2	11.5
Olivet	6.3	9.5
Trine	4.3	8.8
Adrian	-6.3	4.6
Albion	-9.2	3.5
Kazoo	-9.3	3.5
Alma	-13	2.2

Wednesday's games: top half vs. bottom half. With a 3-point home court advantage,

Hope over Kazoo by 21
Olivet over Albion by 20
Calvin over Adrian by 16
Trine over Alma by 14

[bulldogalum]

I'm pretty sure I'd take the points on all of those games and feel pretty good about it.

[oldknight]

the Hope-Calvin domination, for the most part, is quite boring.  Am I relatively correct in saying that in past years they haven't performed as a top program?

Actually, you're not relatively correct. Far be it from me to speak a word in defense of Hope but they finished 3rd in the nation last year and in 2007 lost in the Elite 8 to WashU. Two years before that Calvin finished 3rd in the nation. Since 2005 Calvin has gone 7-3 in the NCAA's (two of those losses were to Hope) while Hope has gone 9-3. You've got to be pretty good to do all that.

I do think this year both teams are a bit down from what we've seen in recent years, though in my view, Calvin should (and could) be the conference champ. They have the best combination of talent and experience, are a good rebounding team, and play better defense than posters give them credit for--they just haven't played consistently well on offense. Veldhouse's mysterious shooting funk is a major reason but if he comes out of it Calvin is a tough team to beat. This week's road games at Adrian and Hope will tell a lot and may be the most decisive week of the season for the Knights. Adrian has arguably the best player in the conference and if the Bulldogs win Wednesday, they have a real shot at winning the regular season title. Despite their nice 2-0 start, I'm still not sold on Hope as a favorite if Calvin falters. They just seem too green yet but maybe Reimink can will his team to a title. Time will tell.

[northb]

Despite the struggles Calvin and Hope have had this season, there is nothing that convinces me that anyone other than those two schools have a serious shot at the conference championship.  The other schools just do not have the tradition of winning that these schools share.

[bulldogalum]

Am I relatively correct in saying that in past years they haven't performed as a top program?

Well it depends on your definition of "top program."  Certainly Hope and Calvin are the gold standard, and I suppose if I were defining top programs they'd be the ones I'd name.  And since 2001, Adrian has pretty much been a mainstay in the center of the regular season conference standings, consistently finishing 4th or 5th.

However, since 2001, Adrian has made the final 4 of the MIAA tournament on 6 occasions and lost in the finals twice.  Compare that to the other teams in the MIAA over the same time period, and I think you might be surprised.  The final four appearances are listed first, followed by finals appearances in parentheses.

Hope         8 (5)
Calvin        8 (7)
Adrian        6 (2)
Albion         6 (2)
Olivet         1 (0)
Tri State     1 (0)
Kalamazoo 1 (0)
Alma           0 (0)

More often than not, when it's win or go home, Adrian finds itself in the top half of the conference.  Basically, I think it would be very hard to argue that Adrian is not in the top half of the conference over the course of this century.  Is that a "top program?"  I don't know.

They have been considerably more consistent than Olivet, Tri State, Kzoo or Alma, and in spite of the fact that Albion had more success from a won/loss standpoint, had just as many appearances in the conference finals as did the Britons.  I believe there's something to be said for AC Alum's contention that Adrian doesn't necessarily receive the respect it deserves, but unfortunately, I don't think that situation will change until we find a way to win a conference tournament.  As I'll willingly admit, that's a tough task.

[bulldogalum]

the Hope-Calvin domination, for the most part, is quite boring.  Am I relatively correct in saying that in past years they haven't performed as a top program?

Actually, you're not relatively correct. Far be it from me to speak a word in defense of Hope but they finished 3rd in the nation last year and in 2007 lost in the Elite 8 to WashU. Two years before that Calvin finished 3rd in the nation. Since 2005 Calvin has gone 7-3 in the NCAA's (two of those losses were to Hope) while Hope has gone 9-3. You've got to be pretty good to do all that.

I do think this year both teams are a bit down from what we've seen in recent years, though in my view, Calvin should (and could) be the conference champ. They have the best combination of talent and experience, are a good rebounding team, and play better defense than posters give them credit for--they just haven't played consistently well on offense. Veldhouse's mysterious shooting funk is a major reason but if he comes out of it Calvin is a tough team to beat. This week's road games at Adrian and Hope will tell a lot and may be the most decisive week of the season for the Knights. Adrian has arguably the best player in the conference and if the Bulldogs win Wednesday, they have a real shot at winning the regular season title. Despite their nice 2-0 start, I'm still not sold on Hope as a favorite if Calvin falters. They just seem too green yet but maybe Reimink can will his team to a title. Time will tell.

No disagreements here, oldknight.  I wonder if hoopdreams was referring to Hope and Calvin or to Adrian in his response? 

[sac]

It would help people's perceptions of Adrian alot if they won some more non-conference games.  These kinds of results don't exactly inspire alot of pre-miaa banter or hype.  What's true is that overall these results are probably good for #4 in the league over the decade.

2000  6-4
2001  8-4
2002  8-5
2003  7-6
2004  8-6
2005  6-4
2006  6-5
2007  1-8
2008  5-5
2009  3-7

Jokingly  (is that enough?), it doesn't inspire much or help perceptions when a game gets hyped as a showdown involving Adrian and you get this http://www.miaa.org/mbb/stats/0607/0117adho.htm   again, I'm joking/kidding/poking fun.



Realisticly though, I think the other schools in this league are in a tough spot.  They can do very little to change their own perceptions unless they do at least what Hope and Calvin have been able to do for a couple decades now.   Adrian (or Olivet) can win the league league this year but no matter what, it will be viewed as a down year and unless they go deep into the NCAA's or continue to have success for years to come, they likely won't be remembered much on the Westside.  Thats just kind of the reality right now.

It will take years of sustained success from someone other than Hope or Calvin to get people to change their thoughts about this league.

[bulldogalum]

Jokingly  (is that enough?), it doesn't inspire much or help perceptions when a game gets hyped as a showdown involving Adrian and you get this http://www.miaa.org/mbb/stats/0607/0117adho.htm   again, I'm joking/kidding/poking fun.

Thanks for that, sac.  I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.  I will now walk into oncoming traffic.

Realisticly though, I think the other schools in this league are in a tough spot.  They can do very little to change their own perceptions unless they do at least what Hope and Calvin have been able to do for a couple decades now.   Adrian (or Olivet) can win the league league this year but no matter what, it will be viewed as a down year and unless they go deep into the NCAA's or continue to have success for years to come, they likely won't be remembered much on the Westside.  Thats just kind of the reality right now.

It will take years of sustained success from someone other than Hope or Calvin to get people to change their thoughts about this league.

I think this is true to an extent.  Certainly, to be considered on par with Hope or Calvin, sustained success over a long period of time would be necessary.  A long run into the NCAA tournament never hurts, and you've got to start somewhere.    I think if you consciously try to fight the tradition of Hope and Calvin, you're probably fighting a losing battle.  All you can really do is win the games in front of you and let tradition take care of itself. 

That's why games like the one on Wednesday are so important.  I know this Adrian team believes it can win, and I would venture to guess they believe they can win the league this year.  They've been in a lot of close games, and appear to know how to win them of late.  And frankly--no disrespect intended--if they can accomplish their goals and get a ring at the end of the season, perhaps have a run in the tournament, I doubt the guys on the team or the Adrian fans will care much about whether Hope or Calvin has a better tradition.  That's a long way down the road, and every team is a lot of wins away from that point, but as any Michigan football fan can tell you, tradition sure didn't count for much this year on the field.  They can't control tradition, but they can control what happens on the court each game this year.  I hope and expect they'll take advantage of the opportunities presented.

[Mr. Ypsi]

BDA,

If it is any comfort, the old order CAN be overthrown.  IWU has nearly as many titles in the CCIW as the next three teams combined.  The last three years, they've been kicking sand in our faces (not that I've totally abandoned hope [hope, not Hope ] for this year).  Even in 2006 when we had perhaps the best team in IWU history (2 first team AAs, plus a junior who was first team AA the next year), we STILL didn't win the title.

Hope and Calvin have dominated for a long time, but nothing is forever.  Keep on kickin' (and find a way for Young to get another 4 years of eligibility ).

On the other hand, IWU WILL dominate again - if you ever get by Hope and Calvin, watch out for resuscitations!

[Gregory Sager]

BDA,

If it is any comfort, the old order CAN be overthrown.  IWU has nearly as many titles in the CCIW as the next three teams combined.  The last three years, they've been kicking sand in our faces (not that I've totally abandoned hope [hope, not Hope ] for this year).  Even in 2006 when we had perhaps the best team in IWU history (2 first team AAs, plus a junior who was first team AA the next year), we STILL didn't win the title.

Hope and Calvin have dominated for a long time, but nothing is forever.  Keep on kickin' (and find a way for Young to get another 4 years of eligibility ).

On the other hand, IWU WILL dominate again - if you ever get by Hope and Calvin, watch out for resuscitations!

Is there a smiley for when a post makes you do an eyeroll ( ) that is so extreme that you give yourself a migraine?

[AC Alum]

First off, I am not here to disrespect any posters.  I have witnessed and been told of many very classy acts by many of posters on here.  Bulldogallum gives a very honest non-sugarcoated recap of the games and tells it as it is.  Sac finds many statistics current or past and from what I was told by Jeff Nokovich was very complimentary of the AC teams of Jeff's tenure at PG.  Civic Minded is another one that Jeff had told me of who introduced themselves to him and complimented him and the team after AC knocked off a then ranked Hope squad in the semi-finals at the Civic.  Adrian has been close on many occasions but has never broke through.  Is this the year? Who knows. I think this year AC has better chemistry.  The last few years AC did not have that, and there were some very embarrassing acts on the court. (there was some truth to the above situation, but that player did not touch the court again and lost his starting position to the credit of the coach).  The point is this is a very different group and they are led by the league's best player atleast in my biased opinion.  No they do not have the depth and Desmond does not have the weapons around him that Remick and Veldhouse/Mantel have, but they are a dangerous team and this team is showing that they have learned from some of there early season disappointments.
Going forward they need to get consistency in the post and much better results on the boards if they want a chance at the title.  The MIAA is a top-level conference for a reason even if this is a down year. 
So now that the pot has been stirred a little and there has been a brief delay of the Calvin-Hope game talk, its time to sit back and enjoy the action Wednesday!!!

[sac]

BDA,

If it is any comfort, the old order CAN be overthrown.  IWU has nearly as many titles in the CCIW as the next three teams combined.  The last three years, they've been kicking sand in our faces (not that I've totally abandoned hope [hope, not Hope ] for this year).  Even in 2006 when we had perhaps the best team in IWU history (2 first team AAs, plus a junior who was first team AA the next year), we STILL didn't win the title.

Hope and Calvin have dominated for a long time, but nothing is forever.  Keep on kickin' (and find a way for Young to get another 4 years of eligibility ).

On the other hand, IWU WILL dominate again - if you ever get by Hope and Calvin, watch out for resuscitations!

Is there a smiley for when a post makes you do an eyeroll ( ) that is so extreme that you give yourself a migraine?

Is there one for laughing so hard your chest hurts and you feel like you should seriously think about calling paramedics?

[bulldogalum]

Is there one for laughing so hard your chest hurts and you feel like you should seriously think about calling paramedics?

Something along these lines, sac?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gpjk_MaCGM

[northb]

Ok--when did the page name change?  Have I been inattentive?