MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Sac:  I pretty much agree with your thoughts on this weeks games.  I am a little surprised that you did not mention the potential impact that some of the injured players may have on the outcomes. 

Its just difficult to get that information........I only found about Albion's wounded because I asked a fan behind me why Bunn was in street clothes.  He shared the other info about other players.  I wouldn't have known about Yancey or Elliot untill afterwards when 2 other  Albion people let me know they were hurt.


There have been at least 2 requests for information on Caleb Veldhouse's foot on this site with no response...........all I know was he was in a boot Saturday.



Injuries can be a problem at this point in the year, as far as Calvin I think they can still handle Kzoo, Trine and Alma without Veldhouse, after that I don't know and hopefully by then his status would be known.

I'm much less confident Albion can weather their current injury storm, of greater problem for them is their lack of a fluid offense.

At least so far, losing Carter and Bosch has not hurt the Dutchmen in a significant way that I can see.

Henry McCain has been playing hurt all year I guess, he didn't play Saturday so I don't know his status for Wed.

[realist]

gk68:  Good catch.  I had it written down correctly, and then go enter it wrong..   :)Thanks.  It was Crawford in 06.
Sac:  You are right about the injuries.  If you ask about Veldhouse the answer seems to be day by day.  Calvin has surprised me how well they have handled some of the situations they have faced ytd.  I think Hope has done much the same, and perhaps as pointed out the depth of the bench is critical in MIAA play. 

[KnightSlappy]

There have been at least 2 requests for information on Caleb Veldhouse's foot on this site with no response...........all I know was he was in a boot Saturday.

To my knowledge (just going off the top of my head) this is the first game that Caleb didn't start since he came to Knollcrest in the fall of 2005.

[CalvinChelseaMom]

Its just difficult to get that information........I only found about Albion's wounded because I asked a fan behind me why Bunn was in street clothes.  He shared the other info about other players.  I wouldn't have known about Yancey or Elliot untill afterwards when 2 other  Albion people let me know they were hurt.


There have been at least 2 requests for information on Caleb Veldhouse's foot on this site with no response...........all I know was he was in a boot Saturday.

I think Caleb's status for Wednesday is still up in the air.

I went to the Calvin/Albion game with our son Jake. It was the first time I've seen Calvin win there, so it felt good! Albion always brings an intensity as do their fans. I was pretty sure something was wrong with Yancey because I know he is a much stronger player than we saw Wednesday. I was sorry to hear about his back and I hope he recovers well. As a parent of a player, you hate to see any kid, especially a senior, go down with an injury. May all our players get healthy and stay healthy!

[sac]

In sports (especially basketball, hockey also comes to mind..)) it is possible to completely outplay the other team and lose the game.

I strongly disagree.

With all due respect, then you probably didn't see the recent Hope/Calvin hockey game.  In almost all aspects and categories, Calvin did outplay Hope through the three regulation periods, the overtime period and the Shootout, with the exception that Hope's goalie won the game by stopping one more Shootout shot than Calvin's.  We're talking semantics here, however, I think that many people would agree with dz.

Goalkeeping is part of the game, no? And the goalie, despite his idiosyncrasies, is part of the team.

This is a case where the word "almost" means a lot. To me, the quintessential example of this dynamic is the '85 NCAA DI Championship game. I don't think anyone doubted that Georgetown was the better team, and that they would beat Villanova 9 out of 10 times they played, but Villanova had one of those ridiculous shooting nights against a team that was legendary for holding teams to low FG%. No matter how you slice it, however, it was Villanova holding the walnut and bronze and not the Hoyas. So in a sense none of the other stuff really matters. It's something you tell yourself to make yourself feel better, and there's really nothing wrong with that, so long as you don't take it to the point of delusion. I don't sense that any posters on this board, or coaches in the league, have lost touch with reality.

This whole 'debate' is all quite fascinating as a fan of sport.


I can only offer this example of a team outplaying another, and losing (sort of).  It was a soccer game with Liverpool/Chelsea last spring.  Chelsea scored an equalizing goal in the final minute of extra time.........it was knocked in by a Liverpool player.   Liverpool outplayed them for all 94 minutes, yet the game ended in a draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=733nNpXqWrY&feature=related

Its much more difficult in basketball to outplay someone and lose, its much harder to get a flukey shot or great individual performance to overcome anothers good team play.  But it happens.

For the record no I don't think Hope outplayed Calvin last Saturday and Calvin didn't ouplay them enough for Hope to feel bad about the performance.  It was essentially an even game.

[KnightSlappy]

Except Liverpool wasn't outplaying Chelsea while they were in the process of recording an own goal.

[sac]

Except Liverpool wasn't outplaying Chelsea while they were in the process of recording an own goal.

That doesn't erase the other 94 minutes Liverpool was the better team.
Both men were marked and there wasn't a Chelsea player within sniffing distance of the ball.

I can see black and white results is all you see.  Thats fine.  But it happens.

[bulldogalum]

I couldn't disagree more with anyone who suggests that you can't outplay another team and lose the game.  I understand your points, and believe them to be well intentioned, but I've seen so many games where one team beats another in the vast majority of statistical categories and in the overall flow of the game, only to lose for whatever reason (hot goaltender, poor free throw shooting, flukey tipped ball interceptions in football, whatever...).

Does that mean you didn't lose the game?  No, of course not.  Does it make it easier to rebound from a loss and find things to build upon?  It darn well ought to.  I don't think that's calling it a moral victory either.  It's just that when you get smoked in pretty much every statistical category, there are so many things to fix that a team or a coach may not know where to begin.  If, say, a team did very well in 11 of 12 categories, they know that they were close to victory, and the process of improving is much more clear cut.  

I doubt there are many coaches out there who would say would agree with the posters who say that if you lose, you've automatically been outplayed.

[HopeConvert]

In sports (especially basketball, hockey also comes to mind..)) it is possible to completely outplay the other team and lose the game.

I strongly disagree.

With all due respect, then you probably didn't see the recent Hope/Calvin hockey game.  In almost all aspects and categories, Calvin did outplay Hope through the three regulation periods, the overtime period and the Shootout, with the exception that Hope's goalie won the game by stopping one more Shootout shot than Calvin's.  We're talking semantics here, however, I think that many people would agree with dz.

Goalkeeping is part of the game, no? And the goalie, despite his idiosyncrasies, is part of the team.

This is a case where the word "almost" means a lot. To me, the quintessential example of this dynamic is the '85 NCAA DI Championship game. I don't think anyone doubted that Georgetown was the better team, and that they would beat Villanova 9 out of 10 times they played, but Villanova had one of those ridiculous shooting nights against a team that was legendary for holding teams to low FG%. No matter how you slice it, however, it was Villanova holding the walnut and bronze and not the Hoyas. So in a sense none of the other stuff really matters. It's something you tell yourself to make yourself feel better, and there's really nothing wrong with that, so long as you don't take it to the point of delusion. I don't sense that any posters on this board, or coaches in the league, have lost touch with reality.

This whole 'debate' is all quite fascinating as a fan of sport.


I can only offer this example of a team outplaying another, and losing (sort of).  It was a soccer game with Liverpool/Chelsea last spring.  Chelsea scored an equalizing goal in the final minute of extra time.........it was knocked in by a Liverpool player.   Liverpool outplayed them for all 94 minutes, yet the game ended in a draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=733nNpXqWrY&feature=related

Its much more difficult in basketball to outplay someone and lose, its much harder to get a flukey shot or great individual performance to overcome anothers good team play.  But it happens.

For the record no I don't think Hope outplayed Calvin last Saturday and Calvin didn't ouplay them enough for Hope to feel bad about the performance.  It was essentially an even game.

OK - I'll preface this with my karma-busting confession that I think soccer is a consummately stupid game, so it doesn't surprise me that you could be completely outplayed and still win or draw.

One of the reasons it would be easier in soccer, and even hockey, to be outplayed and still win or draw relates to the number of meaningful scoring opportunities a team has over the course of the game. In basketball a team is going to have a large number of scoring opportunities and, accounting for turnovers and rebounds, roughly the same number as the opposition. This would make it less likely that a team can lead in 11 of 12 statistical categories and still lose the game. I can't imagine, for example, a team doing better than another team in rebounding, FG%, and turnovers and still losing the game. Perhaps if the other team had an extraordinary 3-pt% and hoisted a lot of shots. Even then... Part of what makes basketball so great is that the team that plays better wins, even if it isn't always the better team that plays better, which is interesting in its own right. One of the appeals of March Madness, I think, is that the best team doesn't always win (NC State '83, Villanova '85, Indiana '87, Duke '91 and so on).

(This relates to the reason why I oppose a playoff in DI football, but that's another story - and it also involves Abraham Lincoln.)

[Erm Schmigget]

OK - I'll preface this with my karma-busting confession that I think soccer is a consummately stupid game, so it doesn't surprise me that you could be completely outplayed and still win or draw.

One of the reasons it would be easier in soccer, and even hockey, to be outplayed and still win or draw relates to the number of meaningful scoring opportunities a team has over the course of the game. In basketball a team is going to have a large number of scoring opportunities and, accounting for turnovers and rebounds, roughly the same number as the opposition. This would make it less likely that a team can lead in 11 of 12 statistical categories and still lose the game. I can't imagine, for example, a team doing better than another team in rebounding, FG%, and turnovers and still losing the game. Perhaps if the other team had an extraordinary 3-pt% and hoisted a lot of shots. Even then... Part of what makes basketball so great is that the team that plays better wins, even if it isn't always the better team that plays better, which is interesting in its own right. One of the appeals of March Madness, I think, is that the best team doesn't always win (NC State '83, Villanova '85, Indiana '87, Duke '91 and so on).

(This relates to the reason why I oppose a playoff in DI football, but that's another story - and it also involves Abraham Lincoln.)

You oppose a playoff in DI football because you lost a $5 bet?   

[HopeConvert]

OK - I'll preface this with my karma-busting confession that I think soccer is a consummately stupid game, so it doesn't surprise me that you could be completely outplayed and still win or draw.

One of the reasons it would be easier in soccer, and even hockey, to be outplayed and still win or draw relates to the number of meaningful scoring opportunities a team has over the course of the game. In basketball a team is going to have a large number of scoring opportunities and, accounting for turnovers and rebounds, roughly the same number as the opposition. This would make it less likely that a team can lead in 11 of 12 statistical categories and still lose the game. I can't imagine, for example, a team doing better than another team in rebounding, FG%, and turnovers and still losing the game. Perhaps if the other team had an extraordinary 3-pt% and hoisted a lot of shots. Even then... Part of what makes basketball so great is that the team that plays better wins, even if it isn't always the better team that plays better, which is interesting in its own right. One of the appeals of March Madness, I think, is that the best team doesn't always win (NC State '83, Villanova '85, Indiana '87, Duke '91 and so on).

(This relates to the reason why I oppose a playoff in DI football, but that's another story - and it also involves Abraham Lincoln.)

You oppose a playoff in DI football because you lost a $5 bet?   

Not AN Abraham Lincoln, but THE Abraham Lincoln. Although ... a five dollar bet might do it.

[CalvinChelseaMom]

I might be way off, but I'm thinking most of us are ready to move beyond GVW's quote. Even my son Jake, a die-hard Calvin fan, when we discussed GVW's quote, said, "You know what he was trying to say, it just came out sounding a little off." I think most of us know what he was trying to say. There's no harm done in giving someone the benefit of the doubt.

[northb]

Let's discuss (sports) in a positive way, sometimes kidding each other with no disrespect.

[NW Hope Fan]

Wow... a whole page went away! Cool!!!

[Stinger]

Henry McCain has been playing hurt all year I guess, he didn't play Saturday so I don't know his status for Wed.

McCain's status is still up in the air for tomorrow.