MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[sac]

Hope student attendence for bigger games is great, they usually fill the student section which I believe is 300 seats.

Hope's enrollment is 3200, so even the Hope students don't seem all that enamored with the basketball team even on their best days.   They'll get one or two MIAA games where only the lowest 7 rows are filled in.  There are a few events coming that usually pull students away, 1)fraternity/sorority rush 2) dance marathon. 

When I was a student it was often difficult to find anyone who was interested in going to a game, and we certainly had no organization.  There were two groups of them, the one's who would sit in the traditional spot at the Civic across from the Hope bench (around a 100 seats), and then a group who seemed 100% committed to not being anything more than a nuisance to the other team(10 or so football players), and would unfortunately sit directly behind the opposing bench.  At least for games when the opposing teams didn't bring fans.  Back then Kzoo traveled really well............and you still had to wait in a long line to get a Calvin ticket, and several would end up being turned away every year.

It really wasn't untill 1995 (I think) that Hope organized its student section into what it is today.  I really thought then it would pass and wane once the glory years of 95-98 subsided but its been fairly consistent throughout.  Its really is great to see, especially when you travel around to other schools and there's little if any student support........even at NCAA games.  You come to appreciate how unique the support Hope receives really is.


A couple things I've noticed over the last 3 years and this relates directly to the opening of DeVos.  Now that we have this nice arena, I would say Hope gets about 500 more fans per game than they could at the Civic and of course its 100% more comfortable.   Which is great, but the biggest change has been on the women's side.  The women played on campus at the Dow Center, and it was really a pretty awfull spectator facility.  There just wasn't much reason to go to a women's game.  At DeVos you at least have a comfortable arena, and I've noticed on days the men are away, women at home the large crowd that typically followed the men has dropped significantly.  Maybe its just the economy, I don't know but its been pretty obvious to me.

Nowhere is this more evident than Kzoo, the last two years Hope has had  women's games at home the same day the men played in Kzoo.  Its been quite typical for Hope to have over 50% of the Kzoo gym in their favor and a full house over the years.   But recently the attendence was 800 in 2008 and a paltry 320 this season.......and I've noticed the crowds are much smaller on the road at other places.  The Hope contingent at Albion was maybe the smallest I've seen, right next to the one that went there on a Monday night a couple years ago.

Even attendence at the Final Four was a little disappointing, I'm sure that had everything to do with hosting the women's final four.

[Titan Q]

How did Kurt Gruppen get away from Hope and Calvin?

http://athletics.trnty.edu/index.php/MBasketball/Statistics.html

Did either recruit Will Bruinsma?

[almcguirejr]

Hey al...someone saw you in person this week --- isn't it time for you to disappear again? 8)

You really ought to stop peeing in the pool, dude.

[I do know that a vast majority of Hope posters no longer post what they really feel here, because of the immature reactions it will cause.  And maybe that's okay.  We know where to find each other if we want to have a civilized discussion.  I'm just a little disappointed that, more often than not, it cannot be here with all of you.  I'd welcome a mature discussion of the Hope/Calvin game, or the Albion/Calvin game (which I saw in person but won't discuss here).  Maybe some day...

[KnightSlappy]

Calvin's attendance numbers may be affected by the fact that only 2 of the 7 conference home games were/are scheduled for Saturday.  Hope, on the other hand, has 4 of the 7 home games on Saturday.

[oldknight]

How did Kurt Gruppen get away from Hope and Calvin?

http://athletics.trnty.edu/index.php/MBasketball/Statistics.html

Did either recruit Will Bruinsma?

Gruppen got away from me too. Kurt's development has been an amazing story to me, as well as to everyone else I know. He is a fifth year player, having been redshirted his freshmen year at Trinity, and that fact partly explains his dominance this year. He's simply become a little better player every year I have seen him. I first saw him play his freshmen year in high school when he was a JV player, and I saw him play numerous times over his four years as a prepster. He was a decent high school player who probably averaged about 11 points a game his senior year but I admit I never thought he would ever be anything more than a role player at the college level. I think he's listed at 6'3" but truth be told he's barely 6'2", quite undersized for a forward spot at the college level. He's not quick, can't really jump, and really isn't suited to play a guard spot. But he's a farm boy not afraid of hard work and that fact, combined with an unwillingness to let anyone tell him he can't suceed, explains a lot. He does have some skills including solid ball handling, good decision making and--as Hope found out in December--a deadly jump shot from both long range and mid-range. Despite some physical limitations, the one physical attribute he could control, he has developed on his own. He's obviously been lifting weights faithfully over the years and he has a very strong and well developed upper body that allows him to give the defender that little bump to free up space for the jump shot. He's a good kid and I admire him a lot. As far as I know Calvin never recruited him but I'm pretty sure he would not have gone to Calvin anyway because he took scholarship money from Trinity. He did get married this summer so maybe we can credit some fine home cookin' by his wife.

As for Bruinsma, I believe Calvin did express interest but he originally took scholarship money from Dordt where he first attended. He's now taking the money at Trinity and I don't think he ever seriously considered Calvin.

[sac]

Calvin's attendance numbers may be affected by the fact that only 2 of the 7 conference home games were/are scheduled for Saturday.  Hope, on the other hand, has 4 of the 7 home games on Saturday.

Not sure the Saturday difference is all that much.

Last year through the first 6 MIAA home games Hope had an MIAA avg of 3016 with 4 Wednesday night dates and that average is not including the Calvin game which was played as the 7th home game on a Wednesday night.

This year with the 4 Saturday dates its 3039.

[GoVols]

Hope student attendence for bigger games is great, they usually fill the student section which I believe is 300 seats.

Hope's enrollment is 3200, so even the Hope students don't seem all that enamored with the basketball team even on their best days.   They'll get one or two MIAA games where only the lowest 7 rows are filled in.  There are a few events coming that usually pull students away, 1)fraternity/sorority rush 2) dance marathon. 

When I was a student it was often difficult to find anyone who was interested in going to a game, and we certainly had no organization.  There were two groups of them, the one's who would sit in the traditional spot at the Civic across from the Hope bench (around a 100 seats), and then a group who seemed 100% committed to not being anything more than a nuisance to the other team(10 or so football players), and would unfortunately sit directly behind the opposing bench.  At least for games when the opposing teams didn't bring fans.  Back then Kzoo traveled really well............and you still had to wait in a long line to get a Calvin ticket, and several would end up being turned away every year.

It really wasn't untill 1995 (I think) that Hope organized its student section into what it is today.  I really thought then it would pass and wane once the glory years of 95-98 subsided but its been fairly consistent throughout.  Its really is great to see, especially when you travel around to other schools and there's little if any student support........even at NCAA games.  You come to appreciate how unique the support Hope receives really is.


A couple things I've noticed over the last 3 years and this relates directly to the opening of DeVos.  Now that we have this nice arena, I would say Hope gets about 500 more fans per game than they could at the Civic and of course its 100% more comfortable.   Which is great, but the biggest change has been on the women's side.  The women played on campus at the Dow Center, and it was really a pretty awfull spectator facility.  There just wasn't much reason to go to a women's game.  At DeVos you at least have a comfortable arena, and I've noticed on days the men are away, women at home the large crowd that typically followed the men has dropped significantly.  Maybe its just the economy, I don't know but its been pretty obvious to me.

Nowhere is this more evident than Kzoo, the last two years Hope has had  women's games at home the same day the men played in Kzoo.  Its been quite typical for Hope to have over 50% of the Kzoo gym in their favor and a full house over the years.   But recently the attendence was 800 in 2008 and a paltry 320 this season.......and I've noticed the crowds are much smaller on the road at other places.  The Hope contingent at Albion was maybe the smallest I've seen, right next to the one that went there on a Monday night a couple years ago.

Even attendence at the Final Four was a little disappointing, I'm sure that had everything to do with hosting the women's final four.

When Hope plays at Kalamazoo, it seems as though that game is on a Wednesday night — I know, I've been to at least the last four — and it's early in January and it almost always snows. Given that history, some people simply don't want to go down there to see a game that (usually) is one-sided, then have to go out and clean a few inches of snow off their cars.
Yes, the Hope women playing in DeVos may have something to do with it as they are exciting to watch as well. But sometimes the drive down simply is not worth it.
Now if you wanna complain, how about a Saturday night game at Adrian? Where were the Hope fans for THAT one?

[GoVols]

Attendance at Adrian for that one was 489. Safe to say most of them were wearing black and gold.

[almcguirejr]

How did Kurt Gruppen get away from Hope and Calvin?

http://athletics.trnty.edu/index.php/MBasketball/Statistics.html

Did either recruit Will Bruinsma?

I don't remember Gruppen having a great H.S. career.  His shooting percentage is incredible, 56% overall,  81-153 on 3's (53%.)

[sac]

Attendance at Adrian for that one was 489. Safe to say most of them were wearing black and gold.

Like I said its been wanning..........and for the record I'm not complaining just observing.

1/24-09  Same day Hope played at Adrian.  Women's attendence vs Albion 1876.  Thats their second largest crowd of the season.  They drew 2500 vs St.Mary's, a men's/women's double-header.

[formerd3db]

Re: the attendance discussion, good comments all.  I will just add 2-3 more personal opinion/observation comments, if I may (and then I will not comment further on this topic as I think we've covered it quite well.  

First, glad to hear that Calvin's recent attendance at the last couple of home games was over 2000 and almost 3000 for yesterday, as was mentioned.  As you Calvin fans have stated, in due time, most likely that will continue to improve and/or at least hold at a number higher than was previous at the former facility.  We all realize that at our schools, not everyone is into the athletic programs and as such, student attendance waxes and wanes depending on how the teams are doing; although I will say that this year despite Hope's team doing rather poorly in football (a rarity that occurs only every once in awhile in the last 3 decades ), the students attended the games in very good numbers.  I do, however, personally find it hard to learn that some students don't even know that the sport(s) teams exist (no offense intended ChelseaCalvinMom ) - even if they are not interested in athletics and choose not to go to the games!  I will say that our own daughter who is a senior at Hope this year just went to her first basketball game in her four years at DeVos last week (it was the women's game) after my getting on her case for some time! (Although perhaps some of that is because I'm a football guy at heart!).  Anyway, at least she made it to one and plans to go to one of the final men's games before this season is done.  Of course, she was at all the Hope football home games (not that I had any influence on that ).

Secondly, (and this is for sac), way back in "my day" at Hope, I dare say we had way more than 300 students at games in the Civic Center - it was always jam-packed on the bleachers side opposite the teams and that sat well more than 300.  Of course, the townfolf supporters had the best seats (individual cushioned seats) in the 3 sections of the "U shaped" balcony, but some of the students always tried to grab a few of those if there were no shows!  And all this was when our Hope teams were not that great - .500 was usually the norm, or around there i.e. pre GVW days.

Plus, add to the fact that Hope has led the NCAA in attendance in recent years not only at the DeVos, but I thought at least one of the last years or so at the Civic Center (without having the reference books in front of me I'm guessing here at that last aspect - so perhaps someone can confirm or correct me).

And finally, eveyone familiar with the Hope/Calvin rivalry (and we've discussed this on here in years past) knows that they hold the all-time NCAA record for attendance (almost 12,000) for a single game at VanAndel.  I still think they should have at least one game there each year between the teams, alternating which one is designated as the "home" team.  I would bet (if I were a betting man ), you could nearly fill it each time.  I realize there are some drawbacks to having it there which many of you have pointed out in the past (i.e. including the $/rental aspect), but IMO, it could be done satisfactory in that regard.  Same goes for the Hope/Calvin hockey game, but...that's another story and I'll refrain from further comment on that since this is the bb board.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your comments on this discussion re: attendance and facilities.  Very interesting.  For those of you who will be at the Hope/Calvin game at Calvin's new "digs" this week, have a great time and..."may the best team win" (HOPEfully, that's HOPE! ).

[Mr. Ypsi]

Attendance at Adrian for that one was 489. Safe to say most of them were wearing black and gold.

As a 'neutral observer' (IWU/CCIW, but sitting with the Hope folks), I'd dispute that.  The attendance on each side of the gym looked pretty even to me.

[And, much as I love sitting with sac, fdf, cm, etc., I'm disappointed that I've yet to meet any Adrian posters - I know your youth soccer coaches, but no AC bball fans! ]

[KnightSlappy]

Calvin's attendance numbers may be affected by the fact that only 2 of the 7 conference home games were/are scheduled for Saturday.  Hope, on the other hand, has 4 of the 7 home games on Saturday.

Not sure the Saturday difference is all that much.

Last year through the first 6 MIAA home games Hope had an MIAA avg of 3016 with 4 Wednesday night dates.

This year with the 4 Saturday dates its 3039.

Hope's Saturday average: 3,383.5
Hope's Wednesday average: 2,350

Calvin's Saturday average: 2,518
Calvin's Wednesday average: 2,821

It appears the day of the week doesn't much matter the the fans in Grand Rapids (although the opening night "sellout" boost the Wed. average by nearly 800 fans).   It could also be that near the bottom Alma and Adrian are not as good of Saturday draws in the mind of the GR faithful as top-halfers Calvin, Albion, and Olivet are in Holland.

[formerd3db]

Thanks for the stats, KnightSlappy.

Hey, bulldogalum, what have you been up to latey?  Contact me "off-line" on the Pers. Message board and we'll catch up on all the news.

[bulldogalum]

Attendance at Adrian for that one was 489. Safe to say most of them were wearing black and gold.

Actually, the Hope fans were pretty well represented at that game.  

While we're on the topic of student section attendance/participation, I must say that I was disappointed by the Calvin students, but at least they showed up.  I've been disappointed beyond belief in the Adrian students all year--and not just basketball season.  During football season (I know there's another board for this), Adrian is playing Trine at home for the MIAA title, and there are all of 20 or 30 students at the game.  This year for basketball, there has been no discernable student section, and there appear to be very few students with an interest in the game.

This is one of the most perplexing things for me about Adrian in recent years.  The new administration has made incredible improvements to the facilities, has made it easier for students to go to games, and to be excited about them.  Nevertheless, students rarely make it out in force, and almost never have any coordination.  It almost makes me angry, because I know the kind of advantage a good student section can be.  

So, I suppose, if there are any Adrian students reading this post, I'm officially calling you out.  There are two home games this week, both of which are very important for the Bulldogs.  If you've got the slightest bit of pride in your college, you'll be there, and you'll be loud.