MBB: Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association

[realist]

I always kind of liked the Civic center myself, and think it will be a good site for HS games.  Not perfect but adequate provided they do some cosmetic work on ceiling tiles, and a fresh coat of paint etc.  Reading between the lines one has to guess that rent on the Civic is less than the De Vos.   Pat I don't think the HS is buying the Civic, just renting it.

[realist]

Reimink has played  722 minutes, and fouled 60 times or once every 12 minutes.

Mantel has played 538 minutes, and fouled 47 times or once every 11.44 minutes.

Then, this clearly makes Mantel the MVP.  Not such a dirty player as Reimink.

Wiz:  The point I was trying to make, and I think OK reinforced it was be very careful before you jump to what looks like the "logical" conclusion based on statistics.  I think Sac has proven the point more than once that the more numbers you look at to try to reach a conclusion it only points to more numbers you need to consider. 
The real point is neither Mr Reimink nor Mr Mantel can be called or proven a "dirty" or clean player by numbers that don't give any indication of what the foul was or under what circumstances it occurred.   Just because someone claims one player or another "is getting away with murder" doesn't make it a fact.  Over time the numbers even out, and these two individuals prove that point.
Personally I wish both Mr. Reimink, and Mr. Mantel were more assertive, but that is just me, and I like winning bball games.  These guys are who they are, and both seem like darned nice young men.  Yes, basketball is just a game.

[formerd3db]

Interesting decision announced by Holland Christian officials today.  No more Maroon's games at the DeVos

http://www.hollandsentinel.com/sports/x82778264/HC-hoops-will-return-to-Civic-Center

I agree.  However, from reading the article it seems like everyone is parting friends.  Is the city or HCHS going to spend some $$ sprucing the Civic up?

“We have started down the road of renovating the high school building and campus. We think within the next five years or so we need to do something on our campus.”
Declining attendance made continuing playing at DeVos Fieldhouse not financially feasible for Holland Christian, even though the cost of playing there has remained the same, Vos said.

My question is this: how will it become financially feasible within the next five years or so to build a new facility altogether?

HC has a good sized gym.  I remember it as only having bleachers on one side.  If they installed bleachers on both sides I think they could hold 1800-2000 people in there.  They have also just completed a $30 million dollar renovation of the HS.  Right now isn't the time to have another fund drive.

First, sorry, hit the wrong button first regarding the "blank" post just sent.  Anyway, I think most will agree with you about that.  I would also just add that Holland Christian's announcement is not reall "new" news.  That "rumor" was well known during the Hope College football season and some various very reliable "inside" had confirmed that this was "coming down the pike".  The h.s. decision is, nonetheless, undestandable from their standpoint.   

[scottiedawg]

First, sorry, hit the wrong button first regarding the "blank" post just sent. 

Then please do us the favor of deleting the blank post.

[formerd3db]

First, sorry, hit the wrong button first regarding the "blank" post just sent. 

Then please do us the favor of deleting the blank post.

I'm not quite sure how to do that (thought only Pat can delete posts).  Regardless, give me a break their scottie; why don't you just do what most people do and "read over it"; ignore it and go on to the next post?!

[scottiedawg]

MVPs help their teams win titles, not miss key shots when it counts the most. Mantel has come of age this year & has my MVP vote, although admittedly biases.

Again, this comes down to the whole definition of "Most Valuable Player."  Is it the best player on the team that gets the farthest, the most outstanding statistically, the one whose team would suffer the most if you removed him from it?

For category 1, Mantel is the obvious choice.
For category 2, Reimink is the very obvious choice.
For category 3, Remink is probably the choice, although cases can certainly be made for Mantel and maybe McClary.

[scottiedawg]

First, sorry, hit the wrong button first regarding the "blank" post just sent. 

Then please do us the favor of deleting the blank post.

I'm not quite sure how to do that (thought only Pat can delete posts).  Regardless, give me a break their scottie; why don't you just do what most people do and "read over it"; ignore it and go on to the next post?!

In the top right corner of your posts, you can quote, modify, and delete.

[formerd3db]

Addendum/spelling correction:
Just so I don't get reprimanded by scottiedog, spelling of "their" was intended to be "there".

[formerd3db]

scottie:
Thanks for the tip.  Although I've been posting for quite some time, I guess I never utilized those options.  Thanks.

[scottiedawg]

Addendum/spelling correction:
Just so I don't get reprimanded by scottiedog, spelling of "their" was intended to be "there".

For nothing but the irony of it all, if you were referring to "The h.s. decision is, nonetheless, undestandable from their standpoint", then I think you had it right initially. 

[bulldogalum]

MVPs help their teams win titles, not miss key shots when it counts the most. Mantel has come of age this year & has my MVP vote, although admittedly biases.

Again, this comes down to the whole definition of "Most Valuable Player."  Is it the best player on the team that gets the farthest, the most outstanding statistically, the one whose team would suffer the most if you removed him from it?

For category 1, Mantel is the obvious choice.
For category 2, Reimink is the very obvious choice.
For category 3, Remink is probably the choice, although cases can certainly be made for Mantel and maybe McClary.

Mantel is only the obvious choice in category 1 if you assume Calvin "goes the farthest."  That, at least in my estimation, means that Calvin makes it to the NCAA tournament and no other MIAA school does.  I'd consider this a weak assumption because, for all we know, Trine could get hot in a week and win the MIAA tournament, at which point Wes Weir might be the obvious choice in Category 1.

[Happy Calvin Guy]

FWIW:  A comparison of personal fouls stats. and players fouling out show Calvin the fewest in the MIAA.  347 personal fouls, and 3 people fouled out.
Adrian fouls 362 FO's 4
Kalamazoo 365 FO's 3
Alma  372        FO's 7
Olivet 402      FO's 7
Hope 417      FO's 4
Albion  422   FO';s 7
Trine    427  FO's 10
Player comparison
Reimink Hope 60 fouls, and has not fouled out.  He has shot 149 FT's making 119.
Mantel  Calvin 47 fouls, and has fouled out once.  He has shot 102 FT's making 72.

Disclaimer: This is not a value judgment on any person affiliated with Calvin College, Suge Knight (rapper or mascot), or the East Beltline.

Now that that's out of the way I think its pretty incredible that Mantel has only 47 fouls!!! I have only seen Calvin play once so this really looking from afar. But for a 5 to play as many minutes as Mantel and have that few fouls is rather amazing. What does this mean? Any number of things. I could give my opinion but I don't think its the one that would make the most people mad so I am just going to keep it to myself so everyone can guess what I meant and that way you can all find a reason to be upset if you try hard enough (yes, I am kidding!)

For most stats, we chalk it up to certain players/teams being better at scoring, rebounding, etc etc.  Why for fouls do we have to infer that the refs aren't keeping things even?  (I'm not just referring to just this recent group of posts--seems like it's a common refrain made by coaches after a game too) Could it possibly be that certain players/teams are better at not committing fouls, just like other aspects of the game?

Also, I think it's unfair to label a player as "soft" just because his fouling stats aren't as high as others.  Perhaps his defense fundamentals are just better.  

[scottiedawg]

MVPs help their teams win titles, not miss key shots when it counts the most. Mantel has come of age this year & has my MVP vote, although admittedly biases.

Again, this comes down to the whole definition of "Most Valuable Player."  Is it the best player on the team that gets the farthest, the most outstanding statistically, the one whose team would suffer the most if you removed him from it?

For category 1, Mantel is the obvious choice.
For category 2, Reimink is the very obvious choice.
For category 3, Remink is probably the choice, although cases can certainly be made for Mantel and maybe McClary.

Mantel is only the obvious choice in category 1 if you assume Calvin "goes the farthest." 

Exactly right.  At this point of the season, Calvin has.  The rest is yet to be determined.

[scottiedawg]

For most stats, we chalk it up to certain players/teams being better at scoring, rebounding, etc etc.  Why for fouls do we have to infer that the refs aren't keeping things even?  (I'm not just referring to just this recent group of posts--seems like it's a common refrain made by coaches after a game too) Could it possibly be that certain players/teams are better at not committing fouls, just like other aspects of the game?

Not only do we expect refs to keep the foul totals close, for the most part they reciprocate (whether by their own efforts or by the laws of large numbers).  So, regardless of talent for initiating fouls, avoiding fouls, etc, (which I agree are talents) the refs still make an effort to equalize the foul totals.  It is still complete conjecture to explain away foul discrepancies on the basis of either "foul talents" or biased/inconsistent officiating. 

[Happy Calvin Guy]

the refs still make an effort to equalize the foul totals. 

basketball socialism